Ok, I consider myself decent at this game. At the very least I understand the rules and that when things go badly it's usually because someone's doing something incorrectly.

Finale of JR, 'Mutiny', I lost the mission before the end of round 3 by having all heroes wounded. This just should NOT be possible in a balanced game.

Heroes: Fenn, Shyla, Onar, Vinto (I will never run Onar again in any capacity)

IP was running Hutt Mercenaries and had class cards that (when all are used once per turn) can add 6 damage plus 1 blue die to an attack. That happens once every round. Fenn and Shyla went down by the end of round 2 because there is no place to hide or protect yourself in that mission. No problem, I just chalked that up to bad luck. Vinto and Onar (I know, stop) were still very healthy. Vinto had 1 damage and 1 strain at the start of round 3. Because Onar had 6 damage and full strain, I decided to activate him first to get him behind cover (away from the objective). Vinto was targeted by the eHired Guns. First attack does 11 damage to 1 block. Second attack does 5 to blank. Even if I had rested him, he would have been flipped with no chance to mitigate.

So I figure my only shot at even remotely getting close to finishing this mission is to trigger the next chapter, which drops 2 trandoshians right on top of Onar. They attack, then Jabba focuses one and it attacks again - Onar is flipped, game over.

This is stupid. Granted, the IP was playing EXACTLY correctly by focusing fire on the first hero to activate each round so they have no option to heal themselves and take max damage. But that's my issue, really. I had spent ALL of my XP, and ALL of my credits by this point getting armor and weapons. Both sides of the table had 13XP through the campaign. But that ability to add 6 damage and a blue die to basically any imp figure's attack means I can't protect myself from it, and I'm going to lose AT LEAST one hero per round - best case scenario. In an 8-round mission, it's simply a no-win.

I know it's one playthrough, and I know I had horrible luck, but when the entire campaign culminates on a mission like this as a finale, one starts to feel like they've completely wasted their time running the campaign at all... I love the game - I love the mechanics, but sometimes when you take 11 damage - even considering a 3-block, it's just not fair at all...

Mostly, I am just curious what you all thought of the mission. We're running the campaign again, switching sides.

Are you sure that you're applying the conditions for each ability correctly? You should only get the +6 damage and a blue die when all of the following are met:

1. The attacking figure is a mercenary figure
2. The defending hero has a bounty token
3. The defending hero has suffered 3 or more strain

If it's not a mercenary, that's 1 less damage. If the hero doesn't have a bounty token, that's 2 less damage and no blue die. If the hero hasn't suffered 3 or more strain, that's 2 less damage.

These conditions should not always be met; if they are not, then it will reduce their damage significantly.

One issue that people frequently have with the Jabba's Mercenaries deck is the Bounty tokens. Unlike other tokens, you do not discard bounty tokens at the end of a mission. The ONLY ways to lose a bounty token are being defeated or ending the campaign, and the only way to get them back is for everyone else to have lost theirs also. This makes a big difference; once some heroes have lost their bounty tokens, it makes the Imperial player's target selection a lot more difficult until all bounty tokens are returned.

Yeah - I discovered that tidbit about bounty tokens halfway through the campaign. Unfortunately she worked it so all 4 heroes had bounty tokens at the start of this mission, and yes, all the other conditions were met every time (with the exception of the occasional 3-strain part). She was careful to make sure that ALL of her open groups were mercenary groups, for that reason...

We read and re-read the rules a few times after this abortion of a mission and couldn't find anything either of us could have done differently.

Like I said, granted bad luck and good luck, but this was just abysmal. Felt like the game just betrayed me. I'm no stranger to GREAT campaigns, close missions, etc. It's a great game, I just don't see how a properly designed setting could lead to a pre-round-3 defeat during a freaking finale...

Yeah, I've heard Hutt Mercs is a menace of a class deck. That in mind, I totally sympathize you having to play against it.

It would be nice if there were official difficulty rankings for each class deck, so it would be easier to diagnose what should be used for what group. Obviously, in a game with as many moving parts as IA, it would be as impossible to objectively classify a class deck as it would be to create a totally, Euro-style balanced mission... but I'm sure they could get close.

For instance, if Military Might had a base difficulty of 4, Hutt Mercs might be at 5 and Nemesis might be a 2. Something like that- again, taking into account that these numbers are more or less just suggestions.

15 minutes ago, macmastermind said:

Yeah - I discovered that tidbit about bounty tokens halfway through the campaign. Unfortunately she worked it so all 4 heroes had bounty tokens at the start of this mission, and yes, all the other conditions were met every time (with the exception of the occasional 3-strain part). She was careful to make sure that ALL of her open groups were mercenary groups, for that reason...

We read and re-read the rules a few times after this abortion of a mission and couldn't find anything either of us could have done differently.

Like I said, granted bad luck and good luck, but this was just abysmal. Felt like the game just betrayed me. I'm no stranger to GREAT campaigns, close missions, etc. It's a great game, I just don't see how a properly designed setting could lead to a pre-round-3 defeat during a freaking finale...

Yeah, I guess if the Bounty tokens were on everyone at the start, that's going to make things pretty tough... I'm not sure what you could have done. Sometimes missions are just really hard for one side or the other based on team composition, upgrades, and (of course) luck. With so many possible combinations of these factors, it's hard to say what caused it. Maybe you could try running the mission again, and seeing if it goes as poorly?

40 minutes ago, Stompburger said:

Maybe you could try running the mission again, and seeing if it goes as poorly?

I thought about it. I mean, clearly I was a little salty and at the time I wasn't interested in spending any more time on a mission like that. But maybe they actually did play-test it and it isn't as ridiculous as I think it might be...

I am excited to run the campaign again though. I just hate looking forward to that final mission being a 'best 2 out of 3?' scenario because it might not be balanced at all - or it's only balanced if you know what's coming... Which is an entirely different thread...

I just thought, that the bounty token mechanic could lead to very un-satisfactory experience. Good imperial player, who really wants to win, would deliberately lost the penulitmate mission (not always needed, but in most cases), trying to end the mission right when all heroes have bounty tokens on them. It will just make the finale so much easier for Imp player, that there is no in-game reason not to do so (the only real reason being that it is not fun for anyone)

2 hours ago, Jarema said:

I just thought, that the bounty token mechanic could lead to very un-satisfactory experience. Good imperial player, who really wants to win, would deliberately lost the penulitmate mission (not always needed, but in most cases), trying to end the mission right when all heroes have bounty tokens on them. It will just make the finale so much easier for Imp player, that there is no in-game reason not to do so (the only real reason being that it is not fun for anyone)

Yeah, that's kind of my issue with the Bounty tokens- there's this meta strategy of trying to get them to line up on specific missions- which is fine, but can cause some funky actions by the Imperial player to get things to work.

You don't have a support hero. It's no surprise you ran into exactly this problem.

6 damage from a class deck is nothing special. Sustained Fire + Combat Veteran alone from Military Might will tend to put out an extra 7 damage on top of keeping troopers alive longer to put out even more damage.

I pretty easily won this one as Rebels largely to being able to annihilate everything on the board thanks to things like Onar shooting RED+RED+BLUE+BLUE and Murne giving him an extra attack.

1 hour ago, Union said:

You don't have a support hero. It's no surprise you ran into exactly this problem.

That's something I didn't consider when choosing heroes. I wanted to choose the new ones in order to get a feel for them, and one old hero I know well. It didn't occur to me at the time...

Another problem I had was weapon draw from the item deck. I was really on the lookout for 3-dice weapons that I could afford and it just never happened. I decided to spend credits on other upgrades just to keep up and by the end I just didn't have the health buffs or the better guns. The first 3-dice gun I could afford came up right before the finale, so I gave it to Fenn and waterfalled the A280 to Vinto, but it was too little too late...

Just seemed like a bridge too far to lose before the end of round 3 in a finale where the rest of the missions were either rebel-dominated or close losses... But there was a huge luck factor, like I said...

2 hours ago, macmastermind said:

Another problem I had was weapon draw from the item deck. I was really on the lookout for 3-dice weapons that I could afford and it just never happened. I decided to spend credits on other upgrades just to keep up and by the end I just didn't have the health buffs or the better guns. The first 3-dice gun I could afford came up right before the finale, so I gave it to Fenn and waterfalled the A280 to Vinto, but it was too little too late...

Were you using the new upgrade phase rules? Seems like this shouldn't have been an issue at all.

4 hours ago, subtrendy said:

Were you using the new upgrade phase rules? Seems like this shouldn't have been an issue at all.

The new upgrade rules don't guarantee you get the best draws. Only increase their likelihood of showing up...

I also agree about that "Hutt Merceneries" is over-powered. I would not recommend this class deck to be played against new-comer rebel players, since it does ruin a little bit about the feeling of the game. Since they can totally destroy all heroes atleast in 3-4 rounds. Since the basic stormtroopers can do damage about 12 + 3 (from the Most Wanted) that can easily ruin the heroes day, if the defence dice give you all crap. And even if you have single armor (that gives you +2 health), you are almost sure that your next 2 actions are double rest and even then you might end up wounded too easily.

And if you happen to get the situation, that not all have the bounty token in the begin of the next mission, Imp player only have to first concentrate to those that have it, bc after they are wounded, "Wanted:dead" clicks on and suddendly all heroes have a bounty again! So there is not so much way to hide that as a rebel player. I wonder why it was not writen, that it would only check the situation in the beginning of the mission only. Rather than checking it all the time.

I do know that FFG likes to do these kind of "masochistic" cards (seen even worst cases in the Arkham and Eldritch), so mayde they like to give something new and exotic for this case. I more see, that if you (as a imp player) do not like to try something funny, you more likely just want to stick in the Military might and Hutt Merceneries, cause you cant have the feeling to lose the campaign. Otherwise you might just test some other class decks, or just play all the missions just picking up only regular units for your open groups and that sort of things.

I see that new upgrade rule is good, since it does give you better changes to get something. I have wondered should you also use this kind of system with crate deck also (like taking 2 cards from it instead of 1?). Since it does also suck, if you would like to find some easy healing stuff from it, and all you get (with 4 crates) is: card which you use for looking out Imp players hand cards (do not remember the name...), card that gives you extra money at the end of mission, Change cubes and lastly....Pit Droid (which is kind of useless, since you have allready taken all the crates....

You think Valuable Goods is a bad draw for the Rebels?!?

29 minutes ago, Majushi said:

You think Valuable Goods is a bad draw for the Rebels?!?

On the finale, it certainly is.

In any finale the rebels are grasping at straws anyway if they consider picking up crates. (R5 Astromech, Expertise, Supply Network, and Scouting Report of course give some flexibility.)

I've seen it before where they're looking for explosives, but that's definitely a gamble, and probably a poor strategy in all but a few situations.

18 hours ago, subtrendy said:

Were you using the new upgrade phase rules? Seems like this shouldn't have been an issue at all.

You'd think. But then again, I do have the worst documented luck in the southeastern United States. My name is spoken in hushed tones to avoid aural contamination of even the most modest luck-wielders...

Not joking. "Rolling a 'Tony'" is a thing from Miami to Jacksonville. Not just blanks, but literally the WORST result you could get - that's a 'Tony'...

25 minutes ago, macmastermind said:

You'd think. But then again, I do have the worst documented luck in the southeastern United States. My name is spoken in hushed tones to avoid aural contamination of even the most modest luck-wielders...

Not joking. "Rolling a 'Tony'" is a thing from Miami to Jacksonville. Not just blanks, but literally the WORST result you could get - that's a 'Tony'...

My friend Jack has the worst luck in the northeast USA. On a D20, if he needs a 2 to hit, I expect a 1. If its critical to hit just then I'd bet good money he'll roll a 1. We coined the phrase "Jacked the dice". - Man you really Jacked the dice on that roll.

When his rolls are almost normal, it feels like he's cheating somehow.

I don't have that problem with dice, but I guess I live the real life equivalent.

9 hours ago, subtrendy said:

On the finale, it certainly is.

Lol, yeah... *facepalm*

Should really remove it from the deck for the finale...

Die rolls are what they are

Last game we played, we roll the white die about totally 30 times, and we got 1 "dodge"-result. And only thing I got from that die was a blank and 1 defence

But I was thinking about that crate deck and campaing finale, that should you really tweak it? It would give you better chances to get heal and grenades from it. Or should it really be like gamblers deck, that if you as a rebel are in the serious desperation situation, that checking the crate could help you. Or when you are doing much better, it would not probably help you at all (like getting the Astrodroid or Pit Droid). Im not sure should it be like a house rule maybe, that if all players agree (especially Imp player) that deck should be tweaked.

It still use 1 action to do an interact for the crate, and we know all, that sometimes actions do mean alot on the campaing where you use those. And if putting one action for something like doing a real gambling in the finale, could really give Imp player a edge. It still means that hero does not shoot/move/rest for double time. And if you still get that **** Pit Droid from the deck for that action....

Still the crate deck could just be a double-sided sword, that you might get something good out of it, or then not.

5 hours ago, deadsong2 said:

Die rolls are what they are

Last game we played, we roll the white die about totally 30 times, and we got 1 "dodge"-result. And only thing I got from that die was a blank and 1 defence

But I was thinking about that crate deck and campaing finale, that should you really tweak it? It would give you better chances to get heal and grenades from it. Or should it really be like gamblers deck, that if you as a rebel are in the serious desperation situation, that checking the crate could help you. Or when you are doing much better, it would not probably help you at all (like getting the Astrodroid or Pit Droid). Im not sure should it be like a house rule maybe, that if all players agree (especially Imp player) that deck should be tweaked.

It still use 1 action to do an interact for the crate, and we know all, that sometimes actions do mean alot on the campaing where you use those. And if putting one action for something like doing a real gambling in the finale, could really give Imp player a edge. It still means that hero does not shoot/move/rest for double time. And if you still get that **** Pit Droid from the deck for that action....

Still the crate deck could just be a double-sided sword, that you might get something good out of it, or then not.

I agree. At no point are you ever guaranteed the item that you need from the crate deck. Sometimes you might be looking for healing, sometimes for explosives, sometimes something else entirely. I could see removing Valuable Goods as being appealing, but it's such an unlikely scenario (out of all of the crate cards, that's the one to be drawn during a finale) that I think it should be taken in stride as a critical failure.

Plus, there are ways to mitigate the crate deck within the rules, anyway.