I hope everyone who got it early is enjoying their box of goodies! My question is geared more towards those people. So I've gotten two games in now and I played Waiqar on both of them, I've watched some demos online, and have heard some game reports from friends and it seems no one has won playing undead. Now obviously I'm sure there have been some people play a game where they wiped Daqan good but I haven't heard about it. My question being: has anyone hear had any experiences to the contrary and what build were you rocking?

I was expecting Waiqar to win handily, but in my test games Daqan has won each time. Though sometimes Daqan only had one unit left on the field...

Their quicker initiatives seem very useful.

The reanimates for me are a little underwhelming. It seems with many attacks it just wipes an entire tray and if I do have leftovers for regenerate then the runes are not on my side. I'm sure they'll pack a bit more punch when we give them more figures but as it stands they're a kind of meh. Combine this and the mediocrity of the archers and it just doesn't seem to work. I do think eventually they'll be a force to reckon but as it stands I'm not impressed.

36 minutes ago, power500500 said:

The reanimates for me are a little underwhelming. It seems with many attacks it just wipes an entire tray and if I do have leftovers for regenerate then the runes are not on my side. I'm sure they'll pack a bit more punch when we give them more figures but as it stands they're a kind of meh. Combine this and the mediocrity of the archers and it just doesn't seem to work. I do think eventually they'll be a force to reckon but as it stands I'm not impressed.

Yeah... four damage seems pretty standard. Regenerate only seems to do any good when I take something like six damage and can refill a partial rank.

So far my reanimates have utterly failed to do anything of consequence. I can't seem to pull off a charge with them, because they always get charged first, and Kari can wipe out whole ranks of them just by tossing surges off melee with a completely different unit. They can receive charges well enough, but they are so slow that if you even try to use their defense modifier they'll usually have taken their hits by then, and of course defense doesn't roll over into the next round.

Reanimate archers are similarly underwhelming compared to Oathsworn Cavalry. With only one rank, they can easily roll double blanks and do nothing at all. They desperately need the unit upgrade that reduces surge ability cost by one so two trays could at *least* reliably put out one blight per turn.

Ardus is a whirlwind of destruction... if you can get him into combat. Compared to Kari he is underwhelming simply because Kari is putting out much more damage on average thanks to having not only a ranged attack but an amazing ranged ability in melee.

In general, it seems a lot easier to do damage with the Daqan forces of the core box. Spearmen are straightforward, and generally better at combat than Reanimates, whose regenerate ability is underwhelming at best without the necromancer hero to give them trays back. Oathsworn Cavalry are just living missiles that you either have to take out with archers or just get totally ruined by, again faster than their counterparts on the Waiqar side. Similarly, Kari is a lot more adaptable than Ardus for the most part, being able to spit out huge amounts of damage almost every turn, compared to Ardus' limited damage bursts.

My Ardus has cut down the Rune Golem several times, but he continually gets taken out by Kari's ranged hits before he's able to engage her.

The contents of the core box really aren't enough for meaningful play. The game is clearly designed for each player to buy a core box and then split or lend figures for the other side.

I thought the same about the archers Tvayumat. I just can't wait until my second core set comes in so we can get a little flexibility going when it comes to army building. Should be able to field at least a decent Waiqar force until the necromancer drops. Then the fun will begin!

Waiqar in the core set is built upon supporting each other and using blight to even out the combat*. Daqan in the core set is made up of mostly solid individual units that don't really require the same level of tactics. It gives an advantage towards Daqan in pick up and start playing or demo games.

* - I'll add the example of being able to shoot at people in melee as something most people wouldn't think about doing. I didn't even think about it till going through the learn to play book mainly because a bunch of miniature games don't like shooting into melee.

the big problem i think is that with the core we can play 100 points with very few options. undead seem to be a little harder to play and you need to have a schtick for your army and without being able to army build you cant get that schtick. the humans on the other hand are versatile and adaptable and thats why they are winning more.

im kinda ok with this, as long as its fair once army building. if you are teaching someone the game, let them play humans!

Hmm, this doesn't make me feel any better about splitting my core set and focusing on the undead as my only faction :/

3 minutes ago, Back5 said:

Hmm, this doesn't make me feel any better about splitting my core set and focusing on the undead as my only faction :/

That's why you spilt two core sets! We also haven't really seen the other Waiqar previews so I expect the command expansion to be a huge buff to their infantry much like the Daqan one was.

Yes Waiqar need to focus on getting blight out. And stalling, even backing up with the carrion spitting blight while standing in front of the archers. Make sure you are using all 3 ways to apply blight on multiple units so they can't rally it all away. Look for intitiative advantages to apply blight just before the cav get there attack. I found I win the most with Waiqar if there is no combat before turn 3. That being said Kari's surge power is to strong for a 100 point game.

8 minutes ago, Back5 said:

Hmm, this doesn't make me feel any better about splitting my core set and focusing on the undead as my only faction :/

The Waiqar are super strong at 200 points because they are massively combo dependent.

I would expect the army of straight forward universal troops to beat to win more often then not against the army that relies on debuffing and debilitating enemy forces out of the gate.
Beyond that, I believe in house is testing is done with all of the initial product launches.

Also, most core set games tend to be death match, whereas full games will have objective scoring as well. That really changes things.

It seems that everyone's response is pretty much confirming what I stated in the op and title. Yes, the core set is wonky on the balance between forces. While this may be because of incompletion on the part of Waiqar tactics out of box, the core set is more one sided unfortunately. I mean it's not going to stop me from demoing the core to every single person I meet on the street (this game must succeed!) but still I'm going to be honest about it. Waiqar as stands is a good bit underpowered. Now, throw in another core set and we bit be talking a little differently. Expansions drop and we'll be in a different conversation all together!

15 minutes ago, power500500 said:

It seems that everyone's response is pretty much confirming what I stated in the op and title. Yes, the core set is wonky on the balance between forces. While this may be because of incompletion on the part of Waiqar tactics out of box, the core set is more one sided unfortunately. I mean it's not going to stop me from demoing the core to every single person I meet on the street (this game must succeed!) but still I'm going to be honest about it. Waiqar as stands is a good bit underpowered. Now, throw in another core set and we bit be talking a little differently. Expansions drop and we'll be in a different conversation all together!

I disagree, I believe its 95% a tactics problem, not a balance problem. I have run about 40 demo games, people just run forward with waiqar to much. I win easily with waiqar stalling and backing up not engaging with anything but ardus until after turn 3.

7 minutes ago, Drakoniss said:

I disagree, I believe its 95% a tactics problem, not a balance problem. I have run about 40 demo games, people just run forward with waiqar to much. I win easily with waiqar stalling and backing up not engaging with anything but ardus until after turn 3.

While I will say it takes more tactics on Waiqar's side, I wouldn't say it's 95% of the problems. I'll get a few more games in and get back to you though. I'd like to have much more experience before I even think of arguing a point as you have much more playtime than me right now. Can't wait to see all of you on the field of battle!

In almost all of FFG's minis games - particularly 'core set only environments' they tend to have one faction that's pick up and play and one that requires a bit more nuance to play.

In X-Wing the Rebels were easier to play out of the box and had more reliable ships. The Imperials were much harder to master because they relied more on arc dodging and fickle green defense dice.

In Armada, the Imperials are the reliable faction, with their big Star destroyers; the rebels require more fiddly gameplay, you need to flank and avoid the front arcs.

The core sets exacerbate these differences in play style (not differences in balance), because:

- everyone playing is new, so by definition the faction that is easier to play out of the box, gets an advantage

- the core set game has little to no list building

- and is played on a smaller play area, which forces players to just charge/fly right at each other

Ultimately I think it's the result of interesting design decisions, from the developers trying to create faction identities and also is a business decision because it encourages the buying of expansions right away - ultimately a core set has to sell the system and get you to want to buy more packs.

It's essentially the same as Armada was when it was just the core.

Daqan is Empire or "front toward enemy" faction.

Waiqar is Rebel or "some assembly required" faction.

With some more upgrades available Waiqar will become more flexible.

Being able to play with full pts, on a full size field, with objectives and terrain will also make a huge difference, since it won't just be a meatgrinder.

From the beginning of the previews I've feel that undead are the most tactical army instead of humans that are brute force. This is the reason why I wanted to collect undead. It happen to me the same always with FFG, I want the challenge. I choose Empire in X-Wing (arc dodgers instead of go straight and dice rolls), rebels in Armada (weakers ships trying to flank the enemy). Here happen the same I need to prove myself with the most tactical army, sometimes I'm suceded, sometimes not.

Waiqar require much more nuanced positioning. They will rarely get to charge against Daqan forces. Once in melee, they can attack faster or harder than the Spearmen. Kari is the perfect counter to the flanking archers or carrion lancers. It takes solid tactics to get good results out of the Waiqar, especially right out of the core.

14 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Waiqar require much more nuanced positioning. They will rarely get to charge against Daqan forces. Once in melee, they can attack faster or harder than the Spearmen. Kari is the perfect counter to the flanking archers or carrion lancers. It takes solid tactics to get good results out of the Waiqar, especially right out of the core.

Spearmen have an attack at initiative 3, not red, but anyway attack. So engaged them can strike also first.

About humans or undead charging will depend of the distances. Humans are going to move first each turn, but it doesn't mean them are going to charge because of the distance.

8 minutes ago, Hijodecain said:

Spearmen have an attack at initiative 3, not red, but anyway attack. So engaged them can strike also first.

About humans or undead charging will depend of the distances. Humans are going to move first each turn, but it doesn't mean them are going to charge because of the distance.

If the Spearmen use their attack at 3, they get no attack boosting modifier, so the reanimates will hit harder on average. If the Spearmen want their red modifiers, they will be attacking slower than the reanimates.

If I'm able to remove a tray and negate a reroll or reduce the enemy threat be sure I'm going to attack faster even without the modifier.

So, I haven't played a game yet, and there may indeed be imbalance, but I wonder if folks who have had the one-sided experience can explain how their games went a little bit. Based on what I've heard, it sounds like Waiqar need to stand back and get as many turns shooting as possible before engaging, and run more, smaller units and plane for the counter charge, rather than get up in the opponent's face or try to hold the line.

The firts thing you'd gain by holding toward the back edge of the board would be to force the Daqans to choose between coming at you in waves with fast cav, then medium speed infantry, then slow rune golems, or suffer additional turns of missile fire as they lope up in an organized attack.

The other idea I have is to run minimum sized units of reanimates and rely on counter-charging more. I realize there is one too few dials in the box to run minimum sized units of reanimates, but maybe just writing orders on scrap paper for each turn would do. That way the enemy spearmen attack one unit of sacrificial reanimates, but then the other unit comes and hits them in the flank with 3 dice. may as well have Ardus or Carrion Lancer lined up behind the wimpy reanimates with a late-turn counter charge dialed up too. That way if you lose a tray, or both trays of reanimates their ready for a harsh counter charge up the front.

I want to say that, while I haven't had a chance to play, the Carrion Lancer is a tricky unit as valuable to the core army as the rune golem, but it is geared to a much more tactical than offensive role. I keep seeing people refer to it as heavy cavalry, when it really seems from its command dial to be closer to a heavy skirmisher. If its too far from Ardus, he can't gain its ability to inflict wounds on blight, but its probably more important that your CarLance is closer to your archers so that it can sweep in and take advantage of positioning. Blight application early in the match is going to be very important too, along with proper maneuver and use of terrain.