We have our two winning submissions for Imperial expansion packs for season 2! The Star Courier expansion and 'Imperial Terrors' aces pack won the first round of voting, and now it is time to refine these two submissions. During this revision phase, anyone can take elements from these expansion packs, make changes to them (such as increasing or decreasing price or changing abilities), and submit those revised cards for another round of voting. After this second round of voting, these cards will be semi-final - they will be reviewed one more time before the CCL season 2 Vassal extension is put together by a small committee to address possible balance issues and to make final minor adjustments.

In the revision phase for these expansions, I'm going to split up the cards in each pack during the revision voting, instead of having whole-expansion revision entries.

Cards and elements that directly affect the power level (fix cards that are not mutually exclusive, core elements of a custom ship) of each other are going to be grouped together. Cards that are more independent will be individually revised. If you want to revise a card that is part of a group, your revision entry needs a version of each card in the group, even if you did not make a revision on that card. Here's how the cards will be split:

IMPERIAL TERRORS:

TIE/Interdictor title + Dual Bomb Chutes

All other cards up for individual revision

STAR COURIER:

All pilots + Dial + Scimitar Title

All other cards up for individual revision

So for example if I wanted to propose a revision to the Interdictor title, I would also need to include a revised version or the original version of Dual Bomb Chutes. For other cards, such as Major Mianda, I can make a revision entry just for Mianda that would be voted on independently of other revision entries I made.

Take a look at the original expansions here: STAR COURIER IMPERIAL TERRORS

You can download the strange eon files for the cards in these packs here: STAR COURIER IMPERIAL TERRORS

I'll be accepting revised cards until 11:59pm EST, April 12. Feel free to discuss what revisions you think need to be made below.

Thanks for participating!

-BG

Hi everyone-

This is just a reminder that the Imperial card revisions are due in a couple days. If you want to submit a revised card, you should start working on it now if you haven't already!

I'll be submitting a few revised cards for the Imperial Terrors expansion:

Baradium Missiles for 6 points

Concentrate Fire: Limit total dice rolled to 6

Thresher: Change ability to: When attacking with a secondary weapon, you may change one die result to a critical hit (instead of adding a crit)

Thoughts?

@ObiWonka

@Rakaydos

@Razgriz25thinf

@VanderLegion

I no longer trust the voters behind this to have the best interest of the game at heart.

21 hours ago, Babaganoosh said:

Baradium Missiles for 6 points

Concentrate Fire: Limit total dice rolled to 6

Thresher: Change ability to: When attacking with a secondary weapon, you may change one die result to a critical hit (instead of adding a crit)

Those all seem sensible.

8 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

I no longer trust the voters behind this to have the best interest of the game at heart.

What's the problem, exactly? Opinions differed from yours? It's also not like any of this is even remotely official. If you don't like something, definitely speak up, but I wouldn't get too upset about it.

11 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

I no longer trust the voters behind this to have the best interest of the game at heart.

I don't trust voters 100%; that's why there's the balance committee at the end of everything. The best way to influence opinion is to speak up, though.

On 4/11/2017 at 7:25 AM, Babaganoosh said:

I'll be submitting a few revised cards for the Imperial Terrors expansion:

Baradium Missiles for 6 points

Concentrate Fire: Limit total dice rolled to 6

Thresher: Change ability to: When attacking with a secondary weapon, you may change one die result to a critical hit (instead of adding a crit)

Thoughts?

@ObiWonka

@Rakaydos

@Razgriz25thinf

@VanderLegion

I think baradium missiles needs to either require you to hit or not do are damage. 1 damage to nearby allies if you hit makes sense (basically a better assault missile since it adds stress), or stressing at range 1 on a miss works for me, but doing a damage AND stress at range 2-3 without having to hit is a bit too much IMO. I'd lean toward just make it require a hit a la assault missiles and make it 6 points.

Concentrate Fire: I'd make it like swarm leader: Max +2 dice instead of trying to limit the max number of dice.

I agree on Thresher

The versions I'm planning to submit:

There are a few things I'm looking at tweaking down in the Star Courier.

• O-66 (Pilot) - Ability now reads "After you perform a white maneuver, if you decloaked this round you may receive 1 stress token to rotate your ship 180 degrees."
• Valin Draco (Pilot) - Ability now reads "At the start of the Combat phase, if you decloaked this round, you may choose an unstressed ship at Range 1 and assign a stress token to it."

By changing the timing window on these pilots you remove a lot of the game-breaking effects from them. Valin can no longer stress a ship before it activates, and O-66 is both limited to only activating his ability on white manoevers and can't turn around before he moves which reduces his flexibility massively and makes him a lot more predictable in location if not in facing.

• DRK-1 Probes (Upgrade) - Effect now reads "Enemy ships that you have locked at Range 1-2 cannot perform boost or barrel roll actions."

This preserves the intent of the card - to force arc-dodging aces to play fair against you, and stop them from prancing out of your cumbersome arc without a care (Also useful on other clumsy system carriers, such as B-Wings and G-1As), but doesn't prevent ships from chasing you down if you run. This was suggested by VanderLegion in the results thread and I completely agree with it. I realise that the thematics of letting Rebels and Scum take this are a little weird, to help with that they could be renamed "R-1 Recon Droids", which was a model of droid based on the DRK-1 that saw far more widespread use.

Whats the submission process for the revisions? Just email them to you?

2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Whats the submission process for the revisions? Just email them to you?

Pretty much. Just be aware of how the revised cards have to be grouped (see first post)

I'm going to extend this deadline by a day to give some more time to work on these (also I'll be too busy to put together the voting document before friday anyway)

2 hours ago, Mangipan said:

There are a few things I'm looking at tweaking down in the Star Courier.

• O-66 (Pilot) - Ability now reads "After you perform a white maneuver, if you decloaked this round you may receive 1 stress token to rotate your ship 180 degrees."
• Valin Draco (Pilot) - Ability now reads "At the start of the Combat phase, if you decloaked this round, you may choose an unstressed ship at Range 1 and assign a stress token to it."

By changing the timing window on these pilots you remove a lot of the game-breaking effects from them. Valin can no longer stress a ship before it activates, and O-66 is both limited to only activating his ability on white manoevers and can't turn around before he moves which reduces his flexibility massively and makes him a lot more predictable in location if not in facing.

• DRK-1 Probes (Upgrade) - Effect now reads "Enemy ships that you have locked at Range 1-2 cannot perform boost or barrel roll actions."

This preserves the intent of the card - to force arc-dodging aces to play fair against you, and stop them from prancing out of your cumbersome arc without a care (Also useful on other clumsy system carriers, such as B-Wings and G-1As), but doesn't prevent ships from chasing you down if you run. This was suggested by VanderLegion in the results thread and I completely agree with it. I realise that the thematics of letting Rebels and Scum take this are a little weird, to help with that they could be renamed "R-1 Recon Droids", which was a model of droid based on the DRK-1 that saw far more widespread use.

Valin and O-66 are nearly identical to variants i planned to submit. The only thing with DRK-1 is... well...

"to force arc-dodging aces to play fair against you"

This does way, way, way more than prevent arc dodging, for starters. It prevents reposition to gain shots, extend range, etc. Not only that, but the kinds of ships that use arc-dodging, i.e. the kind of ship that threatens the Star Courier the most, must arc dodge because if they don't, then they die. That's not playing fair at all, when arc-dodging is the primary mechanic that makes them usable as ships in the first place. That is, very specifically, giving yourself the unfair advantage by taking away their best and most critical characteristic. It's incredibly polarizing, because it makes a huge subset of ships completely worthless in the match-up. Most ships in the game that are good, are good because they can reposition. DRK-1 is a completely unfair advantage for such a tiny amount of points, range restriction or not. It's the Zuckuss of your expansion.

10 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Valin and O-66 are nearly identical to variants i planned to submit. The only thing with DRK-1 is... well...

"to force arc-dodging aces to play fair against you"

This does way, way, way more than prevent arc dodging, for starters. It prevents reposition to gain shots, extend range, etc. Not only that, but the kinds of ships that use arc-dodging, i.e. the kind of ship that threatens the Star Courier the most, must arc dodge because if they don't, then they die. That's not playing fair at all, when arc-dodging is the primary mechanic that makes them usable as ships in the first place. That is, very specifically, giving yourself the unfair advantage by taking away their best and most critical characteristic. It's incredibly polarizing, because it makes a huge subset of ships completely worthless in the match-up.

Realistically arc-dodgers aren't ahuge part of the game right now anyway. The most common repositioner nowadays is probably fenn rau, who will be in trouble if he ends up at range 2 of you and can't boost into range 1 or something, but even then he'll still have a token (or multiple tokens) and can probably survive at least one shot. And a good fenn rau player shouldn't leave much opportunity for a large base primary-arc-only ship to catch him at range 2 if he knows he won't be able to boost.

I like the range restriction on the probes (I had forgotten about it or I'd have probbaly done it myself above), and I think it's perfectly valid for arc-dodgers to have a weakness to them. Especially when it's taking up a system slot

10 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Most ships in the game that are good, are good because they can reposition. DRK-1 is a completely unfair advantage for such a tiny amount of points, range restriction or not. It's the Zuckuss of your expansion.

I also disagree that arc-dodgers are the kind of ship that'll threaten the star courier the most, so that probably colors the opinions. Let's look at some meta staples:

Jumpmasters don't care THAT much. They reposition, but usually for blocking, not as much for positioning to get shots. And a large base can frequently block even without repositioning. Mindlinked U-boats will probably not care if they can't barrel roll at range 1-2. Jumpmasters also have native turrets, so it's not like they need to reposition to get arc to shoot at the thing.

Fenn cares more, but still not as much as someone like soontir. At range 1-2 I think it'd be fine. At all ranges would be more of an issue.

Asajj couldn't care less. She rarely has the ability to reposition anyway.

The ghost MIGHT care, but usually if you're running a ghost with an engine upgrade, it's cause you're running away and firing back with TLT, in which case you can probably get to range 3 to be able to boost if youw ant. The exception being the Hera/Ahsoka build, but in that case you might just have to decide to boost for your normal action and use ahsoka to get tokens instead of the other way around.

Miranda/Biggs/Stresshog has no boost or barrel roll.

Defenders (not that they're that common anymore) use barrel roll at times, but don't rely on it like arcdodgers do.

I'm curious what meta ships that are so good are good BECAUSE of their repositioning ability? Fenn and possibly jumpmasters are really the only common ones right now IMIO.

23 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Realistically arc-dodgers aren't ahuge part of the game right now anyway. The most common repositioner nowadays is probably fenn rau, who will be in trouble if he ends up at range 2 of you and can't boost into range 1 or something, but even then he'll still have a token (or multiple tokens) and can probably survive at least one shot. And a good fenn rau player shouldn't leave much opportunity for a large base primary-arc-only ship to catch him at range 2 if he knows he won't be able to boost.

I like the range restriction on the probes (I had forgotten about it or I'd have probbaly done it myself above), and I think it's perfectly valid for arc-dodgers to have a weakness to them. Especially when it's taking up a system slot

I also disagree that arc-dodgers are the kind of ship that'll threaten the star courier the most, so that probably colors the opinions. Let's look at some meta staples:

Jumpmasters don't care THAT much. They reposition, but usually for blocking, not as much for positioning to get shots. And a large base can frequently block even without repositioning. Mindlinked U-boats will probably not care if they can't barrel roll at range 1-2. Jumpmasters also have native turrets, so it's not like they need to reposition to get arc to shoot at the thing.

Fenn cares more, but still not as much as someone like soontir. At range 1-2 I think it'd be fine. At all ranges would be more of an issue.

Asajj couldn't care less. She rarely has the ability to reposition anyway.

The ghost MIGHT care, but usually if you're running a ghost with an engine upgrade, it's cause you're running away and firing back with TLT, in which case you can probably get to range 3 to be able to boost if youw ant. The exception being the Hera/Ahsoka build, but in that case you might just have to decide to boost for your normal action and use ahsoka to get tokens instead of the other way around.

Miranda/Biggs/Stresshog has no boost or barrel roll.

Defenders (not that they're that common anymore) use barrel roll at times, but don't rely on it like arcdodgers do.

I'm curious what meta ships that are so good are good BECAUSE of their repositioning ability? Fenn and possibly jumpmasters are really the only common ones right now IMIO.

Well ok maybe i'm still stuck in Wave 7 meta mentally, but in my defense, you shouldn't be thinking about maintaining the status quo, you should be thinking on how you'd improve on it.

but ships like the T-70, ARC-170(with VT), Dash, A-Wing, Interceptor, TAP, Striker, etc rely on their reposition options to get into favorable positions, and are often just....really bad without them. I say often, because some ships like the ARC have the rear arc, but a lot of ships on this list do need their reposition to be able to be used to good effect. Have you ever flown a Dash that wasn't allowed to boost or barrel roll? Terrible, terrible ship. The T-70 is so much better than the X-Wing in part because of boost. A Soontir that can't arc-dodge is likely a dead Soontir.

Basically, the Star Courier as an expansion does a Jumpmaster; It drastically limits how viable a large number of ships can even be. Just because it doesn't eliminate top meta choices doesn't mean it doesn't negatively impact the meta. Not only that, but you also need to consider that eliminating the ability for certain ships to reposition is terrifyingly effective when you put it on a ship that can decloak, in addition to boost which it has natively.

Upgrades and ships should ideally not eliminate other ships from the meta as a whole, and DRK-1 almost certainly will, even in this update fashion. Now, if we're talking a disposable 1 point upgrade, that gives a target lock, and for that round, the TL'd ship can't boost or barrel roll if it's within range 1-3 of your ship, that's fine, because it's disposable. It would give you a round where you can really get yourself into an excellent position, and spring it on your opponent when they really, really need to boost/BR. It doesn't deny an entire part of a ship's toolkit for the entire game as long as you have them TL'd at range 1-2. The card has NPE written all over it.

19 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Well ok maybe i'm still stuck in Wave 7 meta mentally, but in my defense, you shouldn't be thinking about maintaining the status quo, you should be thinking on how you'd improve on it.

but ships like the T-70, ARC-170(with VT), Dash, A-Wing, Interceptor, TAP, Striker, etc rely on their reposition options to get into favorable positions, and are often just....really bad without them. I say often, because some ships like the ARC have the rear arc, but a lot of ships on this list do need their reposition to be able to be used to good effect. Have you ever flown a Dash that wasn't allowed to boost or barrel roll? Terrible, terrible ship. The T-70 is so much better than the X-Wing in part because of boost. A Soontir that can't arc-dodge is likely a dead Soontir.

For the ARC, I've run the ship a ton and never once used Vectored Thrusters. it's plenty good without them. The T70 likes to be able to boost, but doesn't rely on it IMO. Dash it could possibly be problematic, but probably depends on PS. if dash moves first, odds are he can get to range 3 to be able to reposition just fine. If he moves after, then they have better odds of being able to be in range 1-2 of where he ends up from his maneuver. The main question is whether they end up at range 1 of him or not. If they're range 2, he might lose his bonus die for range 3 (assuming they aren't using a secondary), but still gets to shoot. Interceptors and TAPs rely more on repositioning, but again, aren't common right now. The striker works just fine without repositioning. I've run a fair bit of pure sabacc and rarely barrel roll. It doesn't affect the adaptive ailerons. And while you might be right about trying to improve on the status quo as opposed to maintaining, I doubt any additions in the CCL (outside of fix packs) are going to bring back ships that aren't currently played in the meta. The CCL is just adding ships tot he current meta, so the meta will have to evolve as always, but it's not going to magically bring back ships that aren't currently viable if it doesn't give those ships something new (or push out ships that are preventing them from seeing play).

19 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Basically, the Star Courier as an expansion does a Jumpmaster; It drastically limits how viable a large number of ships can even be. Just because it doesn't eliminate top meta choices doesn't mean it doesn't negatively impact the meta. Not only that, but you also need to consider that eliminating the ability for certain ships to reposition is terrifyingly effective when you put it on a ship that can decloak, in addition to boost which it has natively.

I still don't think it limits nearly the number of ships as you seem to think it does, but not sure we'll agree on that. Out of curiosity, what if it only worked in arc? Basically, once you get them in your sites you pin them down, but if they're out of arc (or long range, keeping the range 1-2 limit) they can still do whatever. Personally, I think having a jouster that has the ability to shut down an arc-dodger is just fine if you want to build that way, at the cost of losing the utility of other system upgrades.

19 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Upgrades and ships should ideally not eliminate other ships from the meta as a whole, and DRK-1 almost certainly will, even in this update fashion. Now, if we're talking a disposable 1 point upgrade, that gives a target lock, and for that round, the TL'd ship can't boost or barrel roll if it's within range 1-3 of your ship, that's fine, because it's disposable. It would give you a round where you can really get yourself into an excellent position, and spring it on your opponent when they really, really need to boost/BR. It doesn't deny an entire part of a ship's toolkit for the entire game as long as you have them TL'd at range 1-2. The card has NPE written all over it.

Since you're so rabidly against the upgrade, I'm curious what kind of list you'd build to abuse it?

41 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

For the ARC, I've run the ship a ton and never once used Vectored Thrusters. it's plenty good without them. The T70 likes to be able to boost, but doesn't rely on it IMO. Dash it could possibly be problematic, but probably depends on PS. if dash moves first, odds are he can get to range 3 to be able to reposition just fine. If he moves after, then they have better odds of being able to be in range 1-2 of where he ends up from his maneuver. The main question is whether they end up at range 1 of him or not. If they're range 2, he might lose his bonus die for range 3 (assuming they aren't using a secondary), but still gets to shoot. Interceptors and TAPs rely more on repositioning, but again, aren't common right now. The striker works just fine without repositioning. I've run a fair bit of pure sabacc and rarely barrel roll. It doesn't affect the adaptive ailerons. And while you might be right about trying to improve on the status quo as opposed to maintaining, I doubt any additions in the CCL (outside of fix packs) are going to bring back ships that aren't currently played in the meta. The CCL is just adding ships tot he current meta, so the meta will have to evolve as always, but it's not going to magically bring back ships that aren't currently viable if it doesn't give those ships something new (or push out ships that are preventing them from seeing play).

I'd never run an ARC without it.

Notably, i've played with nothing but ARCs since before they dropped. I've also won tournaments with them.

Well, you see, my X-Wing fix is nearly dead with DRK-1. Adv. Etheric Rudder gives X-Wings a free barrel roll if you trigger it, which is the primary effect i was trying to give the X-Wing. Not with DRK-1 in the mix. All you'd get is the evade token, in which case, why bother spending the extra point when you can get IA for free? DRK-1 is hard countering a fix from the very same CCL it's being introduced into. Isn't that super messed up to anyone else?

41 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I still don't think it limits nearly the number of ships as you seem to think it does, but not sure we'll agree on that. Out of curiosity, what if it only worked in arc? Basically, once you get them in your sites you pin them down, but if they're out of arc (or long range, keeping the range 1-2 limit) they can still do whatever. Personally, I think having a jouster that has the ability to shut down an arc-dodger is just fine if you want to build that way, at the cost of losing the utility of other system upgrades.

Since you're so rabidly against the upgrade, I'm curious what kind of list you'd build to abuse it?

In arc could work.

I'd need some time to come up with something, but i'll get back to you on that, cause i definitely think it could be disastrous to overall balance, especially considering the ships that can take system slots.

Just now, Razgriz25thinf said:

I'd never run an ARC without it.

Notably, i've played with nothing but ARCs since before they dropped. I've also won tournaments with them.

Different play styles. Just pointing out that the arc is still perfectly capable of being a very good ship without vectored thrusters, and is in no way made unusable by this upgrade.

Just now, Razgriz25thinf said:

Well, you see, my X-Wing fix is nearly dead with DRK-1. Adv. Etheric Rudder gives X-Wings a free barrel roll if you trigger it. Not with DRK-1 in the mix. All you'd get is the evade token, in which case, why bother spending the extra point when you can get IA for free? DRK-1 is hard countering a fix from the very same CCL it's being introduced into. Isn't that super messed up to anyone else?

This in no way kills Adv. Etheric Rudder. Even if you just evade with it, it's still a better version of the new x7 (because it still works when bumping). And in what world is a free evade every round not way better than IA? Sure, it costs a point instead of free, but IA requires a minimum 1 point on a droid, where you can run the rudder without it. It's not like you can only ever get 1 evade from AER. And it's not like DRK-1 is shutting down every ship in your list. It's 1 ship shutdown for 1 target lock. If your opponent wants to shut down multiple ships, they have to have multiple DRK1 upgrades in the list and be target locking different ships - meaning they can't focus fire with said TLs. Also, if they want to spend the Target Lock (outside of a star courier with this and FCS), the DRK-1 does nothing the next round until they re-lock the target. And if my opponent wants to take multiple non-star courier ships in his list with DRK-1 to be able o prevent any of my ships from boosting or Bring at range 1-2 of given ships, more power to him. Now he's got multiple ships with system slots that aren't being used for fcs, or advanced sensors, or sensor jammer, or accuracy corrector. And he's got several ships with target locks on different targets that can't spend them unless they want to waste the points on DRK1. I guess if your ship with DRK1 is lower pilot skill you could target lock every round and be able to both deny the actions and still spend the TLs, but then you aren't using your losing out on defensive modifiers.

I would absolutely run AER (assuming I run a rebel list and include an x-wing), even with the current version of DRK-1.

Just now, Razgriz25thinf said:

In arc could work.

I'd need some time to come up with something, but i'll get back to you on that, cause i definitely think it could be disastrous to overall balance, especially considering the ships that can take system slots.

Most ships that can take system slots want to spend them on other upgrades as opposed to this. I'd happily run almost any of the lists I have saved in YASB since the auto-spawn vassal update against this upgrade. The only one that would really suffer greatly from it is fenngar. 2 PTL repositioning aces would have a rough time once they lose the repositioning, but even there, you might be able to just jam one or both of them down the ships throat and survive long enough to kill them. Depends on the list.

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Different play styles. Just pointing out that the arc is still perfectly capable of being a very good ship without vectored thrusters, and is in no way made unusable by this upgrade.

This in no way kills Adv. Etheric Rudder. Even if you just evade with it, it's still a better version of the new x7 (because it still works when bumping). And in what world is a free evade every round not way better than IA? Sure, it costs a point instead of free, but IA requires a minimum 1 point on a droid, where you can run the rudder without it. It's not like you can only ever get 1 evade from AER. And it's not like DRK-1 is shutting down every ship in your list. It's 1 ship shutdown for 1 target lock. If your opponent wants to shut down multiple ships, they have to have multiple DRK1 upgrades in the list and be target locking different ships - meaning they can't focus fire with said TLs. Also, if they want to spend the Target Lock (outside of a star courier with this and FCS), the DRK-1 does nothing the next round until they re-lock the target. And if my opponent wants to take multiple non-star courier ships in his list with DRK-1 to be able o prevent any of my ships from boosting or Bring at range 1-2 of given ships, more power to him. Now he's got multiple ships with system slots that aren't being used for fcs, or advanced sensors, or sensor jammer, or accuracy corrector. And he's got several ships with target locks on different targets that can't spend them unless they want to waste the points on DRK1. I guess if your ship with DRK1 is lower pilot skill you could target lock every round and be able to both deny the actions and still spend the TLs, but then you aren't using your losing out on defensive modifiers.

I would absolutely run AER (assuming I run a rebel list and include an x-wing), even with the current version of DRK-1.

Most ships that can take system slots want to spend them on other upgrades as opposed to this. I'd happily run almost any of the lists I have saved in YASB since the auto-spawn vassal update against this upgrade. The only one that would really suffer greatly from it is fenngar. 2 PTL repositioning aces would have a rough time once they lose the repositioning, but even there, you might be able to just jam one or both of them down the ships throat and survive long enough to kill them. Depends on the list.

You're still not seeing the point.

It still provides access to an ability to shut down half of a brand new fix upgrade. This is dumb. This makes no sense. This is undoing work to make underused ships feasible again for no reason.

I'm gonna say it, because this is frustrating me. It's this upgrade, or me. I will choose not to participate in CCL, neither the tournament nor future CCLs, should this upgrade make it past the revision AND the rebalance committee. I simply don't have the energy to take place in a league voted on by people who are oblivious to threats to balance, as we were with many things last season.

13 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

You're still not seeing the point.

It still provides access to an ability to shut down half of a brand new fix upgrade. This is dumb. This makes no sense. This is undoing work to make underused ships feasible again for no reason.

It shuts down half of a new fix upgrade and STILL leaves that fix upgrade being REALLY good. I wasn't actually paying a lot of attention during the rebel phase, and the fact that you can give Biggs a free evade without spending your action or using expensive combos every single round unless your opponent double stresses him is rather powerful. Especially stacked with all the other defense boost options you could already give him. It's basically pre-nerf x7, except it's shut down by stress (at which point DRK1 wouldn't matter anyway)

If this made the upgrade completely useless that would be one thing. Especially if it shut it down for your entire list. But it's half of the utility on an upgrade on a single ship (or a ship per DRK1 + target lock, but again, if you're gonna use multiple of these and Target Lock all of your opponents ships to shut down their repositioning, you're gonna run into more issues against other lists than what you gain against arc-dodgers I think).

Quote

I'm gonna say it, because this is frustrating me. It's this upgrade, or me. I will choose not to participate in CCL, neither the tournament nor future CCLs, should this upgrade make it past the revision AND the rebalance committee. I simply don't have the energy to take place in a league run by people who are oblivious to threats to balance, as we were with many things last season.

The upgrade in SOME form is already in. You're free to submit your own version if you don't like the existing one or other submitted versions, and do your best to convince people why yours is the best. If yours doesn't make it in, convince the committee that it's a problem. As far as I know, the committee doesn't do anything until after al the voting is done if they feel something is unbalanced, they're not stopping stuff from going to a vote in the first place.

Realistically, IMO the only ships I think it "kills" are the double-repositioning arc dodgers a la soontir and inquisitor. Any other repositioning ship might be more limited in what they can do, but aren't made completely useless from the loss of one action. And given that arc-dodgers are pretty much what removed pure joust lists like BBBBZ in the first place, I don't find it hat big a deal for a jousting ship to be able to get an upgrade to help pin them down. Doesn't even mean you can't RUN a PTL ace, just means you don't want multiple of them if you're worried about running into this, and maybe you have to draw them into combat with the rest of your list and not charge straight in with the arc dodger.

21 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Realistically, IMO the only ships I think it "kills" are the double-repositioning arc dodgers a la soontir and inquisitor. Any other repositioning ship might be more limited in what they can do, but aren't made completely useless from the loss of one action. And given that arc-dodgers are pretty much what removed pure joust lists like BBBBZ in the first place, I don't find it hat big a deal for a jousting ship to be able to get an upgrade to help pin them down. Doesn't even mean you can't RUN a PTL ace, just means you don't want multiple of them if you're worried about running into this, and maybe you have to draw them into combat with the rest of your list and not charge straight in with the arc dodger.

It's a large ship that can decloak and boost. It will NEVER BE where you expect it to be. The only way to pin it down is to be higher PS and able to boost, barrel roll, or both....or be a PWT. So, denying one of the two subset of ships that can chase it down, the ability to chase it down, is probably not a particularly smart balance choice.

12 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

It's a large ship that can decloak and boost. It will NEVER BE where you expect it to be. The only way to pin it down is to be higher PS and able to boost, barrel roll, or both....or be a PWT. So, denying one of the two subset of ships that can chase it down, the ability to chase it down, is probably not a particularly smart balance choice.

You seem to think this is gonna be TIE Phantom 2.0. Except it doesn't have advanced cloaking device. It'll be cloaked (and decloak) going into the first round of combat, but after that the only time it'll be decloaking is if it ends up in a bad position and cloaks (meaning it isn't attacking you), or it gets out of the fight and cloaks before coming back. So you MIGHT have a hard time the first round of combat getting a shot, but after that cloak won't be much of a factor most likely. As for boosting, you can ALSO pin it down by blocking. Just like you've done against higher PS arcdodgers for as long as the game has been around. Note that brobots are good, but aren't exactlyl wrecking the entire meta. And this thing is easier to kill than brobots since it's less agility.

Edit: Also, it's not like the thing has a turret, or even an auxiliary arc. If it spends too mcuh time "dancing" around to avoid getting shot, it probably isn't going to be shooting either.

Fine.

I'll just put DRK-1 on a TIE Phantom, then.

Have fun with that.

7 hours ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Fine.

I'll just put DRK-1 on a TIE Phantom, then.

Have fun with that.

I'd rather that than Fire Control. Most phantoms are moving last anyway, so it's not like you're going to reposition to get arc.

edit: I guess the ace phantoms do prefer initiative. But ps9 in the meta is mostly fenn nowadays and he might not love being unable to reposition, but it's not an autoloss by any means. And I'd stil rather be unable to reposition and my opponent not have fcs. Means they have to TL for their action the first round of combat then can't spend it if they want to keep the effect for later. Or they TL every round and don't have focus or evade they'd get instead. Personally I'll call that a win if I'm playing against a phantom.