As the title says. I'm not talking about fighter-heavy lists here, they are obviously thriving thanks to Relay and Sato. I'm not talking about the zombie CR90B lists either.

What I mean is, I see a pattern in the current lists: Bring some extremely heavy hitter ship(s), add some support and that's about it. All the logic seems to be about herding the enemy fleet in the heavy arc of that said ship and blow them away with one powerful hit. But I can't see lists revolving around MK2s, TRC90s, Raiders any more, which operate with the "death with a thousand cuts" strategy. Are these lists still viable at all or the future is forever of the Star Destroyers and Liberys?

I'm trying to figure out some lists recently without any big ships or VSDs but they just doesn't seem to be effective enough any more. Sure they can be competitive, but usually they are in disadvantage. How do you guys see this?

Those lists suffer a general weakness to bombers, which are all over the place. At 400 pts you have to lean hard into the MSU for it to be effective, but that doesn't leave much points for a screen, and in the current environment a lone Tycho just isn't doing it any more.

I am sure these lists still have a place, and if the meta continues to trend toward big ships they will come back because they are particularly good at overloading the def tokens of big point value targets. As long as squadrons are still super common however, you have to pause and think through the decision to run the MSU.

CR-90As with TRCs fit what you're looking for, especially at high speeds to outrun bombers that aren't Rhymer and friends. The biggest danger I think is running out of board room and causing accidental collisions.

Raiders that double-arc targets with APTs, screed, and Ordnance Experts still cause a lot of pain.

Going lower than that for more cuts is fighters, as a good carrier can allow like up to three 1-3 damage point attacks, which over the course of the game is a lot closer to the literal thousand cuts you're looking for, which is why they are so strong. The fact that they are hard to hit with anything except other fighters and maybe a Raider is another reason.

In my view, it's big ships like ISDs, VSDs and Liberties that are at a disadvantage... not the MSU lists. An MSU list has spare ships to activate to force that ISD to close, then you run your 3 activations with 3-6 attacks to either push damage or force that on ship to blow defense tokens. Large ships have no defense against this except to endure it, and hope they can live long enough to use that front battery to squash one of the bugs. However, for the corvette player, it's worth trading some 44 points for a 100-point battleship.

I really love my CR90a-TRC, Admo, YT2400s list. But it took a first hit with flotillas and the need to increase headcount, which diluted its firepower. It was always susceptible to squads, especially when they were held back and positioned in Admos suspected flight path. Nowadays, its even more so, of course.

Three flotillas, 2 CRs, Admo, 4 YT2400s, Dodonna, Rogue Squad, Tycho, that I can come up with with a reasonable bid. But I did not playtest it yet against any of the new stuff (Sato, Decimators, Relays, Arqus). My feeling is that the time for this is over, but maybe I am mistaken. Madine could help out and make Admo more effective in more rounds, but that comes at a cost.

I think MSU is still good but just as extra activations can neuter ISD's pretty hard lots of squadrons can smash the MSU activations too quickly. TRC Corvettes are the obvious MSU option but a full Rhymer ball can easily kill a corvette in a turn, and that was before bomber command and some of the awesome new squads so part of the problem is that the squadron game is better and that squadrons are far more likely to be in abundance.

When you're trying to max out on activations its even harder to get your own squads etc.

In short I think it's still possible but I don't think its top tier anymore. Happy to be proven wrong.

My best current MSU build looks like this

4x TRC90s with Intel and medical teams

Transport with Akbar and quantum storm

Transport with Torryn Farr and bright hope

Dash Rendar

Corran Horn

Tycho

Shara Bey

I've found it can work against most fleets, I've used it to take apart big ship lists and some demolisher builds but it is touch and go against a full rhymer ball when you are already down by 50pt in squads and it got decimated by a biggs ball rebel build because the squads really only work if you can focus down important targets quickly before you take too much damage. Once you come up against builds that include flight controllers or lots of hard hitting squads like defenders or biggs it goes to **** super quick.

MSU is still good, you have to work harder to focus your list on one target while avoiding the now very powerful bomber list which is harder work.

But never forget that your 6 ships can push out a massive amount of anti fighter dice, imps are particularly good at this with glad 2 demo and titled raiders with OE being sudden death to fighters.

Yup, it's good, you just have to have a plan for dealing with squadrons. It doesn't have to be "more squadrons," either. Mothma alone goes a long way toward a squadron defense plan. If you don't see fast bombers much, fast ships can do some good in dodging bombers. Just one or both named A-wings can pin an enemy for a couple of critical activations buying you time to bag the carrier and run.

19 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yup, it's good, you just have to have a plan for dealing with squadrons. It doesn't have to be "more squadrons," either. Mothma alone goes a long way toward a squadron defense plan. If you don't see fast bombers much, fast ships can do some good in dodging bombers. Just one or both named A-wings can pin an enemy for a couple of critical activations buying you time to bag the carrier and run.

I can learn a lot about this.

I tried some times bringing a couple of squadrons but I failed miserably cause I bought the first round I could, not the first round I need.

Thank for this.

If you run imps, instigator with a set of 2-4 tie fighter/ interceptors can be brutal for bomber control. If you get good at driving instigator you can land it in a bomber ball blocking the Intel ships from moving. Then move in your fighter to engage the bombers outside of Intel range. The whole ball is now stuck fast with the bombers having to shoot ties all the while inst is pounding out double black arcs OE shots.This works particularly well with ozzal as you can leap into the ball and then crash brake to speed one......add in your second raider title for more pain an you can kill a fighter wing in a round or two... Raiders then make great mop up units or round 4-6 anti ship blockers.

Needless to say my love of Raiders knows no bounds.

31 minutes ago, Johnnyreb said:

If you run imps, instigator with a set of 2-4 tie fighter/ interceptors can be brutal for bomber control. If you get good at driving instigator you can land it in a bomber ball blocking the Intel ships from moving. Then move in your fighter to engage the bombers outside of Intel range. The whole ball is now stuck fast with the bombers having to shoot ties all the while inst is pounding out double black arcs OE shots.

And this is why I have a hard time taking seriously anyone who complains that Imps have no answer to the rebel bomber ball while also dismissing the Raider.

Opponent gets froggy with Intel-supported bombers? Do this.

Opponent holds back Intel? Engage the bombers and force it out, then do this.

Opponent covers their bombers with ship batteries to keep you from doing this? Good play on their part, but you just forced them to keep the bombers in close, probably delaying the bomber strike by a round just by showing up with a 4-point title. And by the time they're in threat range, your ships should be threatening too. And if you're foregoing a heavy investment in squadrons, you obviously invested that into making your ships more effective at the shooties, right? So you win that matchup.

7 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

And this is why I have a hard time taking seriously anyone who complains that Imps have no answer to the rebel bomber ball while also dismissing the Raider.

A lot of the Imperial complaining seems to be from self-inflicted wounds. I come across the occasional Imperial with squadron problems and it generally goes like this:

Me: Why don't you run some TIE Fighters with some carrier muscle to help them?
Them: TIE Fighters suck! I won't ever use them and if you like them you're dumb. 3 hit points? lol

Me: Why don't you run some Raiders for effective flak coverage?
Them: Raiders suck! They're so bad it makes me laugh and everybody knows they're terrible.

Me: Okay, I hope you enjoy losing. *shrug*

Seriously, though, Imperials have a lot of tools in their toolbox to handle different issues but a number of those tools are just left there because some Imperial metas think they've figured out that half of their options suck and refuse to use them. I don't see the problem to the same extent in Rebel metas.

10 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

And this is why I have a hard time taking seriously anyone who complains that Imps have no answer to the rebel bomber ball while also dismissing the Raider.

Opponent gets froggy with Intel-supported bombers? Do this.

Opponent holds back Intel? Engage the bombers and force it out, then do this.

Opponent covers their bombers with ship batteries to keep you from doing this? Good play on their part, but you just forced them to keep the bombers in close, probably delaying the bomber strike by a round just by showing up with a 4-point title. And by the time they're in threat range, your ships should be threatening too. And if you're foregoing a heavy investment in squadrons, you obviously invested that into making your ships more effective at the shooties, right? So you win that matchup.

It is not as easy as written but yes. It is a great anti bomber tactic.

Instigator with OE, flechette, flight commander and EHB can solve some problems. With a squadron token you can fly into the ball and activate up to 3 squadrons after you move to prevent enemy bombers from destroy the raider before the next activation. This is important cause raiders bad moved usually end their lifes after they moved. Afyer that you have your AA improved fire.

And in the current meta of far too many flotillas, Raiders are so much better than ever. What can actually kill them in their natural habitat of the midst of a squad fight?

I ran Instigator for the second time yesterday, first time agaisnt a serious squadron ball. Its glorious. So glorious. Now to make a double raider list.

It is not as easy as written but yes.

Absolutely agree, of course: if it were as simple as "show up with Instigator and you beat bombers", it'd be broken. Instigator definitely takes skill to make work right--but it's a fantastically flexible tool that can seamlessly pivot between extremely effective squadron defense and anti-ship roles.

It's definitely unforgiving to learn though. I can't claim to have mastered it myself: I only know it works because I've been smacked down with it by others (*cough* @clontroper5*cough*).

Lately the Flechette Raider is a serious MVP for the Empire. When you have first, and activation advantage (MSU) it is brutal. In my experience it needs squads to support it as well. You need the enemy to activate squadrons before you move in. If not...bye bye Raider.

Lately the Flechette Raider is a serious MVP for the Empire. When you have first, and activation advantage (MSU) it is brutal. In my experience it needs squads to support it as well. You need the enemy to activate squadrons before you move in. If not...bye bye Raider.

Flechette Raiders have been getting work done for me against squadrons and I'm a big fan. The Flechettes aren't always useful, but they're cheap enough for that to not be a big problem. Tabbing aces or other high-damage bombers (B-Wings, Scurggs, Firesprays) before they get to activate is very strong, particularly with a fighter presence that's able to beat on those stalled-out squadrons. Tabbing a lynchpin Intel ace alone is extremely good and can slow the momentum of a bomber ball considerably.

What is the "starter" Raider squadron accompaniment?

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

What is the "starter" Raider squadron accompaniment?

I've been rolling 2 Raider-Is with Ordnance Experts + Flechettes and 6 generic TIE Fighters in numerous lists and it's been working great. Two top 25% wave 5 Regionals performances, undefeated at Adepticon (won on Friday, 3rd place on Sunday). It's gone versus several squadron-heavy fleets and won the squadron mini-game, it just takes some practice to get the hang of.

4 hours ago, Snipafist said:

A lot of the Imperial complaining seems to be from self-inflicted wounds. I come across the occasional Imperial with squadron problems and it generally goes like this:

Me: Why don't you run some TIE Fighters with some carrier muscle to help them?
Them: TIE Fighters suck! I won't ever use them and if you like them you're dumb. 3 hit points? lol

Me: Why don't you run some Raiders for effective flak coverage?
Them: Raiders suck! They're so bad it makes me laugh and everybody knows they're terrible.

Me: Okay, I hope you enjoy losing. *shrug*

Seriously, though, Imperials have a lot of tools in their toolbox to handle different issues but a number of those tools are just left there because some Imperial metas think they've figured out that half of their options suck and refuse to use them. I don't see the problem to the same extent in Rebel metas.

Im not going to say youre wrong, but it isnt that simple either.

Ties arent great at doing anything other than killing other squadrons.... and they die quickly. Dying is giving up points, and the smaller increments happen faster.

Raiders need to be upgraded and specialized, which limits their effectiveness in an all comes list. If the tools you gave them dont fit the mission profile you have a fragile, close range, gift wrapped point sink.

Rebel squadrons have few weaknesses- almost all of them are generalists, and while they do pay for that it means theyre rarely if ever a bad purchase. Bring 4 X-wings to the fight against a squadronless fleet? Cool, we can make trench runs. Brought five Ties? SOL buddy.

Rebel equivalents dont face the problem of specialization.

4 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

And in the current meta of far too many flotillas, Raiders are so much better than ever. What can actually kill them in their natural habitat of the midst of a squad fight?

I ran Instigator for the second time yesterday, first time agaisnt a serious squadron ball. Its glorious. So glorious. Now to make a double raider list.

Add in a glad two demo, if you've pinned a ball with instig and ties you can swing demo in for 4 blue AAA dice. Some say it's a waste of demo not to shoot at ships, I say watching instigators 2 blacks and demos 2x2 blue melt a 130 point bomber ball in one round is just epic......

4 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Absolutely agree, of course: if it were as simple as "show up with Instigator and you beat bombers", it'd be broken. Instigator definitely takes skill to make work right--but it's a fantastically flexible tool that can seamlessly pivot between extremely effective squadron defense and anti-ship roles.

It's definitely unforgiving to learn though. I can't claim to have mastered it myself: I only know it works because I've been smacked down with it by others (*cough* @clontroper5*cough*).

Yep it's not easy, lesson one is always how not to get instigator blown up in round 2.

4 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

What is the "starter" Raider squadron accompaniment?

The very bare bones I've used is 2 ties, this can/does work, although placement has to be spot on and if they are using bombers with Good anti.fighter there is a risk of burn through......Also if you play ozzel you may be jumping your raider up to speed four to get that perfect pin at which point you ties will not be able to cover out front of the raider.

So optimal is 2 interceptors ( port and starboard bow coverage) and two tie fighters port and starboard aft coverage).

41 minutes ago, Grey Mage said:

Im not going to say youre wrong, but it isnt that simple either.

Ties arent great at doing anything other than killing other squadrons.... and they die quickly. Dying is giving up points, and the smaller increments happen faster.

Raiders need to be upgraded and specialized, which limits their effectiveness in an all comes list. If the tools you gave them dont fit the mission profile you have a fragile, close range, gift wrapped point sink.

Rebel squadrons have few weaknesses- almost all of them are generalists, and while they do pay for that it means theyre rarely if ever a bad purchase. Bring 4 X-wings to the fight against a squadronless fleet? Cool, we can make trench runs. Brought five Ties? SOL buddy.

Rebel equivalents dont face the problem of specialization.

Title 4 points ( yes is specific anti fighter)

OE 4 points ( good against everything on the board)

8 points of upgrades job done. As for being specialist, raiders are great general purpose units. As for fragile so is an ISD if you drive it into the wrong place........

29 minutes ago, Grey Mage said:

Ties arent great at doing anything other than killing other squadrons.... and they die quickly. Dying is giving up points, and the smaller increments happen faster.

TIE Fighters are the best 8 points you can spend towards killing squadrons. They're quite good at it but they're fragile so you need to focus on using their speed and numbers advantages to make up for their fragility problem. Once you get the hang of them, they're quite proficient at their job.

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Raiders need to be upgraded and specialized, which limits their effectiveness in an all comes list. If the tools you gave them dont fit the mission profile you have a fragile, close range, gift wrapped point sink.

They really don't need to be specialized at all, no. Ordnance Experts is the only "must have" upgrade for Raider-Is. Past that I'd consider Flechettes and maybe a title if you want a bit more anti-squadron but they're not strictly necessary. Raiders are extremely helpful in an all-comers list because against squadron-heavier fleets you can prioritize using them against squadrons and against squadron-smaller fleets they become black dice picket ships that focus on beating up other small ships (particularly flotillas) or taking attacks of opportunity against bigger ships. I've written an awful lot about good Raider usage if you want to give it a read but the short version is I completely disagree with your feelings on Raiders.

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Rebel squadrons have few weaknesses- almost all of them are generalists, and while they do pay for that it means theyre rarely if ever a bad purchase. Bring 4 X-wings to the fight against a squadronless fleet? Cool, we can make trench runs. Brought five Ties? SOL buddy.

Rebel equivalents dont face the problem of specialization.

I agree that Rebel squadrons are less specialized, but they're still specialized. X-Wings are miserable bombers for their points cost, for example. Y-Wings are poor dogfighters. It means it's harder to make an outright bad Rebel squadron group but they're still going to be poor uses of points when they're not doing what they want to do, it's just the problem isn't quite as severe.

If I come up against a squadronless fleet with my 6 TIE Fighters, I content myself with getting 3 deployments for 48 points (which usually results in more deployments than the no-squadron fleet gets, which can make a big difference) and I set them up to catch enemy ships during the squadron phase to get in a few points of damage and then they fly away when they get down to 1 hull or so remaining. I've done it in the past and it works all right. Would I rather have spent those points on another Raider against no-squadrons? Sure. But it still does all right.

1 hour ago, Grey Mage said:

Rebel squadrons have few weaknesses- almost all of them are generalists, and while they do pay for that it means theyre rarely if ever a bad purchase. Bring 4 X-wings to the fight against a squadronless fleet? Cool, we can make trench runs. Brought five Ties? SOL buddy.

Rebel equivalents dont face the problem of specialization.

The specialization issues are pretty comparable for both factions, actually. And those are pretty good examples to compare, too, because it highlights the dichotomy between generalist rebel fighters vs generalist imperial ships.

Those 4 X-wings might be okay at bombing... But each one also has a 3/8 chance to whiff completely. 16 blue anti-squadron is nice; 4 red anti-ship dice is horribly inefficient without further points expenditure to specialize them. So, sure, they can do both, but they're natively only really good at AS without further specialization (BCC).

In th same way, the same 52 points on an OE Instigator throws 3 rerollable blacks and 3 blues at ships with a double arc, or two rerollable blacks at every squadron in arc.

Sure, you can spend 3-5 more points on an ordnance upgrade to specialize it for AS or AA, but you're not losing that generalization by doing that, you're just gaining extra specialization. Just like bringing a BCC to enhance the X-wings' bombing doesn't decrease their usefulness in squadron defense.