Personally, I think you are all just uncreative.

Flotillas are easy. They are also rubbish. Plenty of fleet options are avilable to those who choose not to suck.

1 hour ago, Reinholt said:

Caldias has weighed in so well I have little more to say, but let me make a few additional points:

1. Virtually 100% of fleets doing well in tournaments contain flotillas now. It's not quite 100%, but it's **** close.

2. There is a strong trend of more deployments (not just activations) outperforming.

On one hand, I agree with Shmitty that the flotilla has opened up a lot of fleets that would otherwise not be played. On the other hand, the deeper point Caldias is getting at is this: why did we need the flotilla for that in the first place?

Activations are powerful, going first is powerful, and going first / last is hugely powerful. I suggest either the IA passing rule or initiative being determined by whoever had fewer activations would benefit the game more than either of the proposed fixes above.

I also agree the flotilla spam meta is making the game stale in a different way. Nothing should be a 100% auto-include, and attempting to put a band-aid on a severed head is a half-measure at best.

Fix the core issue and flotillas will remain good and very usable, but not something that should be in 100% of games.

Put differently: in my past 10 games, I have played zero games without at least 3 flotillas on the table and one of demolisher / admonition / Yavaris present. I suggest this is not a healthy state for the game, and that the circularity of flotilla utility plus activation plus squadrons is causing this.

I don't even own three flotillas for a single faction and I do just fine. I'm not saying "hey let's not take a look at these things". Just that anecdotal evidence doesn't mean, not that all of your points are anecdotal either. I don't have a huge issue with flotillas as is. Since I think both sides have good ways of dealing with them that aren't point sinks. That doesn't mean I'm closed to the idea of tweaking them either.

35 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Personally, I think you are all just uncreative.

Flotillas are easy. They are also rubbish. Plenty of fleet options are avilable to those who choose not to suck.

As usual, ignoring your needlessly abrasive attitude and personal attacks, it's not about creativity. You can build just about any list, and then pick one 40-60 point ship in there, and replace it with 2-3 flotillas and it is nearly always a better list. That is unhealthy for game diversity.

20 minutes ago, Tirion said:

I don't even own three flotillas for a single faction and I do just fine. I'm not saying "hey let's not take a look at these things". Just that anecdotal evidence doesn't mean, not that all of your points are anecdotal either. I don't have a huge issue with flotillas as is. Since I think both sides have good ways of dealing with them that aren't point sinks. That doesn't mean I'm closed to the idea of tweaking them either.

I think the most glaring thing is in the regionals data, some 90% of rebel fleets had flotillas, and Gozantis were about 80%. When everyone was worried that Demolisher was too good, I think that ship was in about 75% of all lists. When ships are this ubiquitous, it hinders list diversity, which makes the game boring.

I have no problem winning, and I never said you can't win without them, you're just almost always better off with 2-3 in a list, which sucks. Again, I repeat, the real issue is the nature of how activations work in this game, not flotillas themselves inherently.

9 minutes ago, Caldias said:

As usual, ignoring your needlessly abrasive attitude and personal attacks, it's not about creativity. You can build just about any list, and then pick one 40-60 point ship in there, and replace it with 2-3 flotillas and it is nearly always a better list. That is unhealthy for game diversity.

The abrasive attitude is entirely necessary. There are a lot on here are happy to pander to this ridiculous nonsense. Thats what it is though, nonsense.

If you can switch an entire ship out of your list and replace it, then your list isnt worth the paper its written on. All the star lists of the past have a specific role for each individual ship. Clonisher is not 2 gladiators and 3 raiders. Its a primary assault vessel, a admiral lifeboat/backup squadron clearer, a dedicated anti squadron unit, two secondary assault vessels. JJ's world list is similarly far more than just 5 ships. Admo is a secondary flanking threat/sheepdog, Assualt Frigate is a squadron protector, and the 3 flotillas are squadron multipliers. They all have very specific roles.

If you are happily switching out a ship in your list, then your list isnt worth anything. Thats not an opinion, its just fact.

One of the things that makes this game brilliant is the lack of netlisting. You can fly my list, however, you wont fly it the same. I watched CNinja take on Truthiness yesterday with one of my lists whilst Truthy flew two CRambo90's. Neither of them flew any ship the same as I would, and for CNinja it showed that the list just wasnt anywhere near as effective in his hands. (His first time using it or any similar list in his defence)

I can go further and point out Tokra's all flotilla list. Not every flotilla is kitted out the same or even the same variant. There is a reason for this, each ship has its own role. Aresius, pimped out MC80 and flotillas has been refined over time and now each ship has a specific purpose and isnt there just for activations anymore. As much as I hate that list, its a thing of beauty, and guess what, you cant replace any ship and expect the list to be the same.

So yes the abrasive attitude is necessary. Suggesting that you can just replace a ship with a couple of flotillas for immediate improvement is the most ridiculous notion of list building. Quite frankly it shows your level of understanding very clearly.

Well somebody got up on the wrong side of the Sith meditation chamber this morning.

chill the **** down

you're being rude in a discussion about plastic spaceships based upon a series of space fantasy movies

>Post is obvious prank
>Topic covers rule changes
>Changes are laughable
>4 pages of arguing
>Ginkapo shows up
>master plan
>arguments get mean
>Admins lock post

No more nonsense thread about rule changes that will never happen.

/thread

I mean it was doomed for a flame-out the moment it involved squadrons and flotillas. I can't think of anything on this forum that produces more complaining and counter-complaining.

I think this is a conspiracy build up by Star Trek Attack Wing players beacause they want us to be divided against each others

20 minutes ago, OgRib said:

you're being rude in a discussion about plastic spaceships based upon a series of space fantasy movies

Nothing ruder than not having the respect to be honest.

I saw this coming.

4 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I mean it was doomed for a flame-out the moment it involved squadrons and flotillas. I can't think of anything on this forum that produces more complaining and counter-complaining.

I think Caldias, Reinholt and others offered extremely constructive discussion on their thoughts regarding the flotillas.

These discussions don't turn hostile until the Armada-Can-Do-No-Wrong white knights show up and start putting people down. I personally think it shows an extreme arrogance to assume the reason 80-90% of winning lists feature flotillas is because the people playing those lists are uncreative and need to get good.

There are ways around the flotilla lists but they almost all revolve around MSU. As Cal and Rein said, flotillas aren't the issue (as much as you'd like to strawman them into saying that, Gink), the activation war is the issue.

This is far from a new argument. Q, you know, that extremely uncreative two-time national champion, presented pretty much the same complaints about the way flotillas were warping the meta, 4 months ago after Worlds.

1 minute ago, WuFame said:

(as much as you'd like to strawman them into saying that, Gink)

Thats exactly what they said. They also didnt offer it as an opinion, they offered it as fact.

Sigh, have a reasoned discussion if you want, I'll leave you in peace.

Just please, actually discuss, rather than refusing to engage with each other. Its unhealthy to just stare at each other.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

Thats exactly what they said. They also didnt offer it as an opinion, they offered it as fact.

17 hours ago, Caldias said:

The problem isn't really flotillas, it's because activations are so strong and flotillas are the cheapest source of them.

activations are strong, and a cheap 2 squad activation is very efficient

Can we all just stop responding to Ginkapo, please? Unless we assume his is illiterate, he's obviously lying deliberately to provoke people and derail the discussion.

The proper solution to trolling is not to respond; just ignore him and he will stop. Or, I mean, maybe won't, but if you aren't reading it, who cares?

After all, outside of a handful of particularly miserable exceptions, the armada community has some great players and people. I've had very thoughtful discussions with Q, norboats, Zepnick, Shmitty, Caldias, the entire IFF crowd, WuFame, Captain Weather, PT106, etc.

The activation / squadron issue is even one that has been brought up before, and I think it is clear it is having a real impact and should be addressed somehow.

So in closing, I will say two things:

One, to the git gud crowd: talk to me when you learn how to play. If Q or Jon R want to talk **** to me? Fine. But if you are not a world champion, quite bluntly, you are at best in the tier of many of the other good players on these forums (several of whom are chiming in on this thread) and you should not be talking down to them. An amusing trend is that often the people saying those lack creativity or don't know how to play in these threads are, in fact, garbage players compared to the people they are lecturing. JJ, Q, Indierockclimber, etc. are a lot more likely to be right than you are.

Second, I don't think it is coincidence that most of the top tier armada players I know are converging around the same ideas. When we were comparing lists for worlds, similar concepts were showing up non-stop, with questions about "what is counter meta" still revolving around the activation / bid race. So I will make a testable prediction: every list that makes the cut at worlds will run at least five activations and multiple flotillas (unless they are running a truckload of CR90s instead). Let's see if I am right, but I think wave 5 will show the top half of worlds to have a 100% or very close to it flotilla inclusion rate, much larger than demo ever was, and at the top quarter, it will be multiple flotillas.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that worlds, by ship count, I expect flotillas to be 50% of what is on the tables.

19 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I think Caldias, Reinholt and others offered extremely constructive discussion on their thoughts regarding the flotillas.

These discussions don't turn hostile until the Armada-Can-Do-No-Wrong white knights show up and start putting people down. I personally think it shows an extreme arrogance to assume the reason 80-90% of winning lists feature flotillas is because the people playing those lists are uncreative and need to get good.

There are ways around the flotilla lists but they almost all revolve around MSU. As Cal and Rein said, flotillas aren't the issue (as much as you'd like to strawman them into saying that, Gink), the activation war is the issue.

This is far from a new argument. Q, you know, that extremely uncreative two-time national champion, presented pretty much the same complaints about the way flotillas were warping the meta, 4 months ago after Worlds.

Wait a second! Enough of this pointless bickering... the real issue here is...

My first ever game of Armada on Vassal was against a former two-time national champion?! Are you kidding me?!

I'm a crappy player, but 50% ?

1 minute ago, Reinholt said:

In fact, I would go so far as to say that worlds, by ship count, I expect flotillas to be 50% of what is on the tables.

4 minutes ago, Paindemic7708 said:

Wait a second! Enough of this pointless bickering... the real issue here is...

My first ever game of Armada on Vassal was against a former two-time national champion?! Are you kidding me?!

I had to face him in NC Regionals. He's FIERCE! I don't think I've ever played a more exhausting game. It just NEVER. LET. UP.

2 hours ago, WuFame said:

I think Caldias, Reinholt and others offered extremely constructive discussion on their thoughts regarding the flotillas.

These discussions don't turn hostile until the Armada-Can-Do-No-Wrong white knights show up and start putting people down. I personally think it shows an extreme arrogance to assume the reason 80-90% of winning lists feature flotillas is because the people playing those lists are uncreative and need to get good.

There are ways around the flotilla lists but they almost all revolve around MSU. As Cal and Rein said, flotillas aren't the issue (as much as you'd like to strawman them into saying that, Gink), the activation war is the issue.

This is far from a new argument. Q, you know, that extremely uncreative two-time national champion, presented pretty much the same complaints about the way flotillas were warping the meta, 4 months ago after Worlds.

--

I'm going to remind you all that @Ginkapo was particularly rude (in this thread AND in other threads, about fixes and squadrons, about flotillas), condescending while literally using speech that demanded superior respect, and funny enough, no sort of engagement type of responses to multiple people. His arguments are beyond just white knighting, they're also designed to be personal insults about people's abilities, and designed to literally do as he thinks he's not: shut down discussion, ANTI-dissemination of information.

1 hour ago, Caldias said:

I have no problem winning, and I never said you can't win without them, you're just almost always better off with 2-3 in a list, which sucks. Again, I repeat, the real issue is the nature of how activations work in this game, not flotillas themselves inherently.

I do not disagree with most your points.... Except to note I wasn't quoting you lol

11 minutes ago, Paindemic7708 said:

Wait a second! Enough of this pointless bickering... the real issue here is...

My first ever game of Armada on Vassal was against a former two-time national champion?! Are you kidding me?!

Well, it was also his first game on Vassal!

12 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

One, to the git gud crowd: talk to me when you learn how to play. If Q or Jon R want to talk **** to me? Fine. But if you are not a world champion, quite bluntly, you are at best in the tier of many of the other good players on these forums (several of whom are chiming in on this thread) and you should not be talking down to them. An amusing trend is that often the people saying those lack creativity or don't know how to play in these threads are, in fact, garbage players compared to the people they are lecturing. JJ, Q, Indierockclimber, etc. are a lot more likely to be right than you are.

Git Gud Reinholt (disclaimer: never actually faced him)

14 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Second, I don't think it is coincidence that most of the top tier armada players I know are converging around the same ideas. When we were comparing lists for worlds, similar concepts were showing up non-stop, with questions about "what is counter meta" still revolving around the activation / bid race. So I will make a testable prediction: every list that makes the cut at worlds will run at least five activations and multiple flotillas (unless they are running a truckload of CR90s instead). Let's see if I am right, but I think wave 5 will show the top half of worlds to have a 100% or very close to it flotilla inclusion rate, much larger than demo ever was, and at the top quarter, it will be multiple flotillas.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that worlds, by ship count, I expect flotillas to be 50% of what is on the tables.

If that is what we truly see at Worlds, I do think things should be carefully looked at going forwards. However, I'm not so certain that the situation is quite so dire. The inclusion rate of flottillas is not so worrisome; being the cheapest ship out there, and since Armada is a game with the activation system playing a fundamental role, it is natural they should be very common. With their costs being similar to squadrons, we also have data about high inclusion rate of at least one of those as well.

If the majority of lists start including 3+ flotillas, I see more of an issue. Currently though, I'm not seeing anywhere close to that. In fact, the last Vassal tournament had two 4 activation fleets in the finals, both only had one flotilla. I have only used fleets with 3+ flotillas in a handful of games since the last worlds, and I'm still winning without them. I truly do understand the concerns people have voiced, and I do think this is something we need to keep an eye on. However, at the current juncture I think the game is in the healthiest state it has ever been.