7 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

A simple errata to increase the cost of each flotilla by like 10 points would solve both issues. Instead of an 18 point lifeboat, it's now 28 points plus the commander. I still don't see the issue with lifeboats though.

And the increase would mean you get less bang for your buck in regards to squadron and ship activations. This way every fleet is penalized for taking a flotilla. A penalty of 10 points.

I'm a firm believe that the best way to change what we have now is to release new content or to adjust the issue. Maybe a point change is unprecedented, but it's a very simple change and it can always be reversed, increased, or decreased.

The squad point thing is weird and uncalled for. Dras is correct in that it only hurts max bomber fleets. If FFG didn't want mass bombers for both sides, overruling the BCC stack rule would help that. Not releasing Norra would have helped if they had any concerns about it. Nerfing Rhymer would also do the trick. But all the anecdotal evidence points to FFG wanting mass bombers to be viable.

The reason you can't just increase points (outside of a severe game-killing imbalance issue) is that people have purchased models that may now no longer be playable in their fleets. For example, if you increased the cost of a flotilla in my current Vassal tourney list it would go straight to 400 points without changing anything, and my next opponent would go to having an illegal list. While this would only effect us initially, players who purchased several units would see them go from being a portion of their list to being either the vast majority of their points investment or even being unplayable.

This is also a reason why you cannot just cut the squadron cap. Suddenly, players who invested in squadrons cannot field them. If you cut the current cap from 33% to 25%, for example, you'd need to increase the fleet cost to 533 before you could legally field 134 points of squadrons again.

People can complaint against Flotillas but like Dras already said, I don't think they are the problem in the game. The squadron are maybe the biggest issue here.

For me, the squadron game took this way because of all those special ability granted by a particular unit and form a ball around it. For Exemple : Rhymer.

If Rhymer could only have this ability for himself, he could be a good bomber to have with your other bomber and there will be no ball around him. You could use him as a first sriker. Same for other unit like Dangar, Howlrunner, Jan, Norra, etc.. Just to be sure, i'm not pointing only against Rhymer.

When I'm playing the demonstation game for new player with the core set, I'm preferring playing this way with squadron because there is no ball. Only squadron that are doing what squadron are supposed to do.

Do I use squadrons balls... Yes.

Is it that bad... not necesserily.

Is it about to change... I don't think so.

But I do think that a big issue. I don't find it thematic. I really don't like those balls

11 minutes ago, DOMSWAT911 said:

I don't find it thematic.

It is pretty close to my Howlrunner ball.

Yes... in the movie every ship and squadron are close to the other to give the impression of all migthy.

But flying that close is supposed to be when travelling, not in combat. You do not want that your allied who get shot near you, kills you by is hown explosion.

It's cute on tv, but a little bit absurd in combat

19 minutes ago, DOMSWAT911 said:

It's cute on tv, but a little bit absurd in combat

Like space-wizards with laser swords, then?

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

The reason you can't just increase points (outside of a severe game-killing imbalance issue) is that people have purchased models that may now no longer be playable in their fleets. For example, if you increased the cost of a flotilla in my current Vassal tourney list it would go straight to 400 points without changing anything, and my next opponent would go to having an illegal list. While this would only effect us initially, players who purchased several units would see them go from being a portion of their list to being either the vast majority of their points investment or even being unplayable.

This is also a reason why you cannot just cut the squadron cap. Suddenly, players who invested in squadrons cannot field them. If you cut the current cap from 33% to 25%, for example, you'd need to increase the fleet cost to 533 before you could legally field 134 points of squadrons again.

Well ****, I guess I can't field 1000 points fleets on both sides because the rules only say 400. Guess owning all of those models was a total waste of money.

According to you, the game is already imbalanced:

Quote

I think there are two significant issues in the game: high activation fleets with a large bid, and massed squadrons.

So I don't see how my idea would be worse than what yours does.I'm not talking about increasing an ISD from 120 to 200 and now the second ISD is useless.

Any changes in the FAQ that would alter fleet composition would happen after the Freshman Vassal Tourny. I'm pretty sure GK wouldn't DQ someone for a ruling that happened after we started. Plus, making flotillas a part of squadron points would make many fleets illegal as well.

The irony of your argument is you say that flotillas should be a part of the squad cap, but now you say we should think about the monetary invest people put in to use those squads. If flotilla are a part of squadron points, what happens to the people that invested heavily into flotillas and squad packs? They can't utilize either to their full potential.

Quote

I am in full agreement on the idea of Flotillas going towards your squadron point total though, for a few reasons. First off, it goes towards rebalancing fleet design to make larger ships (like the upcoming Quasar Fire) useful for squadron activations again. Second, it makes moves to higher point levels (such as CC 500 point games) something other than a race to max out the squadron cap and then invest everything into Flotillas. Especially in the early rounds.

You can't have it both ways. At least my rambling thoughts hurts everyone.

28 minutes ago, DOMSWAT911 said:

Yes... in the movie every ship and squadron are close to the other to give the impression of all migthy.

But flying that close is supposed to be when travelling, not in combat. You do not want that your allied who get shot near you, kills you by is hown explosion.

It's cute on tv, but a little bit absurd in combat

Revenge of the Sith

Rogue One

Pretty sure those fleets and squads were close. Like close enough to run into each other.

I don't believe they would bring such harsh changes to the game. I'm expecting perhaps buffs or nerfs to some upgrades/titles/whatnot, but not a big change to the rules like this.

32 minutes ago, DOMSWAT911 said:

Yes... in the movie every ship and squadron are close to the other to give the impression of all migthy.

But flying that close is supposed to be when travelling, not in combat. You do not want that your allied who get shot near you, kills you by is hown explosion.

It's cute on tv, but a little bit absurd in combat

I could discuss with you about if it is logic or not but you talked about thematic not about logic. So maybe you want to define thematic first.

And remember each squadron represent several fighters. When you point to a ball of squadrons you are talking about several squadrons. When their bases are touching it doesn't mean the fighters do.

50 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Well ****, I guess I can't field 1000 points fleets on both sides because the rules only say 400. Guess owning all of those models was a total waste of money.

According to you, the game is already imbalanced:

So I don't see how my idea would be worse than what yours does.I'm not talking about increasing an ISD from 120 to 200 and now the second ISD is useless.

Any changes in the FAQ that would alter fleet composition would happen after the Freshman Vassal Tourny. I'm pretty sure GK wouldn't DQ someone for a ruling that happened after we started. Plus, making flotillas a part of squadron points would make many fleets illegal as well.

The irony of your argument is you say that flotillas should be a part of the squad cap, but now you say we should think about the monetary invest people put in to use those squads. If flotilla are a part of squadron points, what happens to the people that invested heavily into flotillas and squad packs? They can't utilize either to their full potential.

You can't have it both ways. At least my rambling thoughts hurts everyone.

In my suggestion, you can either choose to field all your flotillas or all your squadrons. You have to make some changes, but you can use all of your models. The only lists where Flotillas cannot be taken are lists featuring more than 134 points of flotillas. Which means 6 or more Gozantis or 8+ GR-75s. And that affects only a tiny minority of known lists, and who knows how few players.

The thing that sucks about flotillas is they are practically an auto include. Anything that is an auto include hurts the game diversity. It is interesting to me that Demolisher was problematic because it was hard not to take, but looking at the data says that gozanits and GR-75s are way more ubiquitous and that is somehow good for the game. I love the options that they open up on one hand, and on the other they are making lists less diverse.

I still think an easy fix for all of the past issues like having first-last activation is to let the number of activations determine your bid rather than the number of points, then ties can go to points. Out-activated people should always get the choice of first or second player, I think, because having last then first activation is just too good. If that were the case, then flotillas wouldn't need any changes because spamming them would be less attractive. Says the guy that spams them to get first then last activation if at all possible. I mean, some lists would still spam them, but not all of them. That or the IA way of being able to delay activating that @Reinholt suggested a while ago. The problem isn't really flotillas, it's because activations are so strong and flotillas are the cheapest source of them.

Just some thoughts. I also think it's possible and necessary to be able to love something and also be able to criticize it, out of love. I love Armada, and I also hope that it can continue to improve and grow.

I still maybe think all that's wrong with flotillas is their squadron value can be too high compared to what large balls of squadrons can do when activated by such cheap ships. I always thought they should have been 1, not 2. They are after all, just transports.

Either that or should have bomber command center been an offensive retrofit, maybe? Then flotillas would have to choose between that and taking Expanded Hangars, plus other ships in the fleets would also gain an option that seems more fitting for command-style ships.

I don't have a lot of experience, though, but I like the idea of delaying activations like IA, though, especially because it's really quite simple to add into the game and doesn't alter any existing game material.

1 minute ago, AegisGrimm said:

I still maybe think all that's wrong with flotillas is their squadron value can be too high compared to what large balls of squadrons can do when activated by such cheap ships. I always thought they should have been 1, not 2. They are after all, just transports.

Either that or should have bomber command center been an offensive retrofit, maybe? Then flotillas would have to choose between that and taking Expanded Hangars, plus other ships in the fleets would also gain an option that seems more fitting for command-style ships.

I don't have a lot of experience, though.

If you made BCC an offensive Retrofit, then it would go on ships much happier to be going into combat near a bunch of squadrons such as an ISD1.

If you wanted to just errata Flotillas to bring them back into line with everything else, all you need to do is replace the Scatter.

That's it. That's the sum total of what you need to do.

The Scatter is the number one reason Flotillas are "overpowered" in the game. By staying at a range where they cannot be realistically targeted with Accuracy results, Flotillas can't really be chased down like larger ships which have to rely on shields and hull to survive. They instead have to be focused down as though they were full-sized combat capital ships.

Replace them with a Brace, make the Flotilla rules grant you a free ECMs effect, done.

Having been on the nasty end of people who use flotilla's to out activate, then spam commands with relay and being only threatened when my ships are basically half dead...then lose when I've got three unmolested activations in my face yeah...it could use a look see.

Flotilla's are a way to win the game and be lazy, sit in a corner and spam relay...they HAVE to come to you if they win the bid they go second all the time, you fight their objective, you're flat out out activated, and you're already fighting with a hand tied behind your back...it's just lazy and to me it really ruins the flavor of the game. Imperial's can abuse the relay two of the lambda from the other side of the table, the Rebels just use boosted comms and expanded hangers and spam squadrons...Leia's gonna make it worse when those GR75's are using four squadron commands a turn.

Why take a star destroyer when I can run a pair of glads, a raider, and a few gonzo's and laugh at the guy who's using an mc80 and will hardly be able to use it until after I've had my way with him.

My fix would be just as suggested, no life boat, and have them being a curse in large numbers....upping the points will just make it worse.

On a side note, maybe I should just use four GR75's with a liberty and leia...lets see the hilarity ensure.

18 minutes ago, Caldias said:

The thing that sucks about flotillas is they are practically an auto include. Anything that is an auto include hurts the game diversity. It is interesting to me that Demolisher was problematic because it was hard not to take, but looking at the data says that gozanits and GR-75s are way more ubiquitous and that is somehow good for the game. I love the options that they open up on one hand, and on the other they are making lists less diverse.

I still think an easy fix for all of the past issues like having first-last activation is to let the number of activations determine your bid rather than the number of points, then ties can go to points. Out-activated people should always get the choice of first or second player, I think, because having last then first activation is just too good. If that were the case, then flotillas wouldn't need any changes because spamming them would be less attractive. Says the guy that spams them to get first then last activation if at all possible. I mean, some lists would still spam them, but not all of them. That or the IA way of being able to delay activating that @Reinholt suggested a while ago. The problem isn't really flotillas, it's because activations are so strong and flotillas are the cheapest source of them.

Just some thoughts. I also think it's possible and necessary to be able to love something and also be able to criticize it, out of love. I love Armada, and I also hope that it can continue to improve and grow.

This is probably the most elegant and unintrusive way to counter the root issue of flotilla spam, the activation war.

Flots aren't the problem, the relentless need for 5 activations is.

2 minutes ago, Gottmituns205 said:

On a side note, maybe I should just use four GR75's with a liberty and leia...lets see the hilarity ensure.

I've thought about lists like that. I find that they sacrifice combat power, so once your 1-2 big hitters are gone the list collapses unless you have a brutal squadron ball to make up the difference. It's why I typically use Raiders in my all-ship lists and fill in with 1-2 Gozantis for the last few points.

44 minutes ago, WuFame said:

This is probably the most elegant and unintrusive way to counter the root issue of flotilla spam, the activation war.

Flots aren't the problem, the relentless need for 5 activations is.

You really need 7 activations to truly play the game.

4 hours ago, WuFame said:

Church, I was being sarcastic with that statement in reply to Ard's statement: "Whole lot of "it's credible because I want it to be real" up in here... "

Literally nobody in this thread has come at this from the belief that it's credible.

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

I've thought about lists like that. I find that they sacrifice combat power, so once your 1-2 big hitters are gone the list collapses unless you have a brutal squadron ball to make up the difference. It's why I typically use Raiders in my all-ship lists and fill in with 1-2 Gozantis for the last few points.

The combat power comes in the squadrons, rebel fighters if built correctly can smash just about anything. Go slow...swarm the big stuff, shoot from range...rinse repeat.

8 minutes ago, Gottmituns205 said:

The combat power comes in the squadrons, rebel fighters if built correctly can smash just about anything. Go slow...swarm the big stuff, shoot from range...rinse repeat.

Yes, but that means you have to properly support the squadrons with upgrades etc. You can do that, but it would be a very awkward balancing act. A Pelta, Yavaris, and 3 transports leaves just enough space for a ball. the single Liberty costs almost as much as those two combined, and it's debatable if it's providing as much offensive power in return.

On the Imperial side, by the time you have Demolisher and another combat ship capable of taking the things that flee from Demolisher, you don't have many points left for any significant squadron ball.

Clearly this is an MI5, SAS,CIA, FBI, NSA, KGP, mossad, gestapo joint operation to support xwing over Armada.

IF they ever nerf (change, fix, whatever) the flotilla, it only prove that i was right with my list . If there is anyone who abused the flotilla, it is me . 8 Ship activations and 13-15 deployments are just to much fun.

My thought about it?

• No commander on flotilla would be fine and not change this much. Player will just change to a raider or CR90 again if they want a lifeboat.
• Flotilla count as squadrons (for the points)? Will not work and will not help. You can still use flotilla to raise your ship activations. And just adjust the squadrons. Many current lists do not even need to change this much. And as many already said, it does not nerf the flotilla, it does nerf the squadrons.
• Flotilla count as squadrons for everything (even activation). Well, this is something total different. It would remove the flotilla as ships. On the other side, it would totally kill them and make them nealy unplayable.
• Limit the flotilla to 1 or 2: Could work. But they are auto include this way for most lists. And some might ask, why not limit other ships this way as well? Only one MC30, or only two CR90, or, ..... It would fix a part of the flotilla problem, but cause more harm in the same way.
• Increase the cost? Well, might work on the cheap rebel ones. But not for the imperial ones. 33-38 points for a Gozanti? A little bit to expensive. They would have to change the values of the ship in the same moment, to make keep them in line. Or reduce the cost of the upgrades (BCC 1-2 points).
• 2 Flotilla = 1 ship activation. With the squadron bonus rule for these. One flotilla (equal to one squadron) has to be activated last. This would help against the ship activation abuse. You would need 4 flotilla to buy yourself 2 ship activations. They still work as lifeboats, and you can still buy yourself some extra ships. But you are not getting this big bonus for the ship activations.

On the other hand, i don't find them this bad. There are enough cards/ships/squadrons that can handle flotilla already, if they dare to fly to close to ships.
What i would change would be the relay. This one let the flotilla go crazy right now. Flying somewhere at the edge of the map, and still be able to command the squadrons is insane.

I don't have enough experience to know for sure if there is a balance issue with flotillas. That would take 100s of game, I think.

However, I wouldn't have a problem with a rule saying that a player is tabled if all non-Flotilla ships are destroyed.

Caldias has weighed in so well I have little more to say, but let me make a few additional points:

1. Virtually 100% of fleets doing well in tournaments contain flotillas now. It's not quite 100%, but it's **** close.

2. There is a strong trend of more deployments (not just activations) outperforming.

On one hand, I agree with Shmitty that the flotilla has opened up a lot of fleets that would otherwise not be played. On the other hand, the deeper point Caldias is getting at is this: why did we need the flotilla for that in the first place?

Activations are powerful, going first is powerful, and going first / last is hugely powerful. I suggest either the IA passing rule or initiative being determined by whoever had fewer activations would benefit the game more than either of the proposed fixes above.

I also agree the flotilla spam meta is making the game stale in a different way. Nothing should be a 100% auto-include, and attempting to put a band-aid on a severed head is a half-measure at best.

Fix the core issue and flotillas will remain good and very usable, but not something that should be in 100% of games.

Put differently: in my past 10 games, I have played zero games without at least 3 flotillas on the table and one of demolisher / admonition / Yavaris present. I suggest this is not a healthy state for the game, and that the circularity of flotilla utility plus activation plus squadrons is causing this.