Dear all,

I've been playing board games, card games, etc for about five years now. One second; let me rephrase it. I've been collecting board games, card games, etc for about four years now. Indeed, I am one of those rare persons who buy a game only for the sake of buying it or more precisely said, for the thrilling joy of having the game. It is a sad affair, honestly. You go and buy tons of games but never play them. The reasons are numerous. For one thing, I just cant find the proper players. Through a minor miracle, this year I've started playing Dungeons & Dragons with some friends from here from Budapest. It was worth the wait. Four years I had to wait to find a group of people playing the darn game. On the other hand, I have to say it. Some games are so hard to get that I regret not having the license to carry a gun. I would rather shoot a bullet in my head than read and learn all the rules. Which brings me to the crux of the matter. I was beyond excited when I first heard about the upcoming Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. After much interior debate, I've decided to go ahead and buy it. The box and the contents were appealing enough. And I was not disappointed. It is a state of art product, impecable, absolutely splendid. Which makes my situation even worse. Now, despite buying, collecting tons of FFG stuff, I am quite a newbie when speaking about actual play gaming. I've tried to learn the rules for WFR. Actually, every morning and every night I open the books and I start reading. And I read and I read until I feel I should give it a second read. Nothing makes sense, I am afraid. The rules books read like a mix of philosophical tract combined with a Republican briefing conference. Plus a bit of Klingonian. Now I am pretty sure I will never be able to play WFR in this life. It is impossible. Yes, very sure of that. Nothing makes sense. Unless you have a degree in math or something similar.

My question is simple: why are the modern games so hard, so complicated to get into? Is this deliberate? Is "fun" equivalent with "nightmares" these days? Whatever happened with FUN?

That being said, tommorow I will order Runewars! Honestly. Yay, I cant wait to receive it. The box looks awesome...!

Orientalist

It's odd you say that, since as a grizzled RPG veteran, I've found WFRP 3E to be one of the easiest rule-sets ever.

Shadowrun, now there's a system that just cripples you. Took me years to figure it out. Great RPG though.

If you are a collector of games I heartily recommend 3:16 by Gregor Hutton. It is a must-have and a must-read for every gamer and game-collector. Why? Because it shows how light and fun rules can be while still delivering a deep roleplaying experience.

Ha! I can empathize. The WFRP3 rules suffer from poor organization and lack of clarity. That said, it's one of those games that sounds SOOOOOO much more complex than it really is. Once I actually sat down and played it, it was really easy. Sure we made a few rules mistakes here and there, but it's a lot less finicky and rules-heavy than say, D&D 3rd or 4th eds. I've been playing RPGs for almost 20 years no (Really?!? ****.) and this one is pretty middling in complexity.

Get thee to a friendly local game store for someone to teach you the game (Budapest you say? I've heard good things about Gémklub) or have someone run an intro game for you over the internet. It'll be easy.

As for your question about FUN vs COMPLEXITY, the truth is gamers are both blessed and cursed with a vibrant and diverse market for games. There are scores of really great and really simple RPGs in the market, but for those who prefer their games crunchier, there are plenty of complex games as well. The bad news, it can be pretty hard to rally a group for any given game because it's a small and fragmented market. Heck, as you noted it can be hard to get a good game of D&D together, and that's the 800lbs owlbear in the market!

Cheers!

Orientalist said:

Uh....Have you been ONLY collecting in the last 20 years?

Game design is a much much easier process to understand these days. For complication I refer you to the hex and chit games of 60s and 70s with 100 page 10 point font rulebooks. that read "rule 101.5c " Take a look at star fleet battles, magic realm, flat top, kingmaker. master chart, or Advanced Squad Leader sometime. Even the first 3 editions of DnD were WAY more complicated than it's newest version.

I think your problem with this game is that its simple rules just are not presented simply, and yes I totally agree, that makes it hard to understand without playing it.

If you just try to read the rules and work out in your head how the play will work, I imagine you would have problems. Get out all the pieces; try downloading the Demo Adventure and run the sample characters through it. That will help ground the rules for you, as you will be able to see how the rules fit together.

I made this point on StS, and I'll repeat it here: I think these rules are slanted toward people that educators would call visual learners, which is not a group for whom most RPGs are made. Personally, I've been gaming for most of my life, and I struggle to learn most rules systems because I don't keep numbers in my head very well. This is the only system I've ever understood well on the first read-through. I suspect, though, that since many rules systems are numbers-heavy, the RPG market has many consumers who are abstract and writing preferential learners; therefore, you get a lot of people already in the hobby frustrated by this system, which is highly unintuitive to them. (I don't even think the rulebook is very poorly organized or hard to understand, which maybe just means I'm in a very similar headspace as the designersor maybe just that I'm weird.) That's not to say that either they or the rulebooks are stupid. There's just kind of a strange mismatch, although it's one I'm very grateful for!

I'd echo the advice of others, though: go see this game put into action by someone who does know the rules. It's a very player-friendly game. The group I'm running adventures for has people who have never played an RPG before, but they picked up the rules set in about 15 minutes, and by the end of the first game, they were making decisions confidently. I suspect once you see the game in action once, you won't think that it's very hard at all.

Give yourself more time to learn the game, and feel free to ask questions on the internet. Lots of people are willing to give you advice and help you figure out the rules. I think it took me about three weeks of looking through the books and getting used to everything before I really saw how it all worked together.

I think it will help to read the reviews written by people who have played the game. But I think the best way to learn the game is to make a character. That part of the rules is pretty straightfoward. As you create your first character, you'll be introduced to most of the parts of the game that you'll need to know.

So give it some more time, and start using up some of those character sheets.

I am echoing what most have already said. I do think the layout of the rules can make it hard to grok at first, if for no other reason than it makes ir more difficult to see how all of the pieces interact.

Just as I do with any course or project management book I read professionaly, I now go through any new games I pick up with a fine tooth comb and take notes. From those notes I crib together a set of cheat sheets. These cheat sheets have become invaluable for me to 1) see how all of the pieces work together, and 2) to actually run the game. I put together a set of GM play aids (available here) that may help to demonstrate how "rules light" the system is as I believe these 5 pages cover more than 90% of the rules you need during play. Outside of the rules/modifiers listed on those sheets you need to know:

• How the dice pool mechanic works. There are tons of examples throughout the rule books, and it does a good job in the core book explaining how to build them and how to use them.
• How to build a character. Quite simple really, and this chapter is very sequentially laid out so it is easy to go through each time you need to do so.
• Rules on money and items. Again, you only need this when your characters want to buy stuff.
• Read the section on NPCs - particularly how their stat lines work.

Otherwise, you can run the game very well (I think) with just knowing the dice pool mechanic and having some GM sheets handy. Certainly if you don't like mine, there are several other forms of GM aids out there that do a great job at capturing all of the disparate mechanics and modifiers for the game. All other rules are contained on the cards and you don't need to know those by heart as the players will pick them and use them when they are relevant. You just need to scan them overall just to get a sense of what they can do.

Once you grok the core mechanics via the above, you can start delving into the first few chapters of the Tome of Adventure which talks about developing 3-Act structures and using the progress counters in novel and useful ways.

Oh - and one final point. As far as the dice pool mechanic works, you can start of very easy by just focusing on successes and challenges. All you need ever worry about is whether there are more net successes than challenges and away you go. Once you get used to forming the pools and seeing how the cards work, you can start working in the other symbols/effects (banes, boons, comets, starts, and so on).

Deltabob said:

This, plus get one of the summary sheets off the Geek and run with it.

I find this game lots of FUN for what it is worth. Haven't played an RPG in 10 years and find this really good for new players - figure out the dice and action cards, use the sample premade characters in the demo adventure and go from there.

Dear all,

Thank you for your responses. Balsam for the mind, indeed.

Maybe I should try to be more positive in my attitude and actually start playing these games. In 2009 I've spent about $1.500 on board games, miniatures, card games and so on. How many of these games I've played? Well, about three of them. Talisman, Arkham Horror and various Dungeons & Dragons campaigns. Have I told you I've bought - on a whim - all the expansions for Descent, plus the core game plus miniatures? How many times I've played Descent so far? Zero. Well, for what is worth I am glad I have all of them. I use to open a Tomb of Ice box, read the rules book, pass my fingers over the figurines and play with the tiles, tokens and so on. I've downloaded a Solo version for Descent too. Tried it a couple of times. Did not worked too well, I am afraid. It is interesting from a psychoanalytic point of view. It is all about role-playing, indeed. You pretend to play a Dwarf Slayer in WFR and it works. As for me, I pretend I play WFR even when I am not playing it. Such a sad business. And I want so much to be able to play it! I believe my problem is not with the logic but with the mathematics. I have a completely non-mathematical mind. Literature on the other hand, yes, I can handle that. It is my buisness. But make me use modifiers, do checks and so on. Are we there yet? Gah!

Anyway, once again many thanks to everyone. I will surely print your responses and study them in the next few days.

Orientalist

HedgeWizard said:

I am so glad to know I'm not the only one who does this. I can't really remember anything unless I've written it down in my own handwriting.

Orientalist said:

The best way to learn a rpg is to play it. After several sessions there should be not much prob anymore I guess. Additionally WFRP is a rpg, so should be absolutely no need to know every rule from the beginning, even for GMs. A situation can be solved in many ways in a rpg, so if you dont know the meaning of every symbol or number during a game, dont be desperate, its ok. Just circumvent it with your own interpretation. In order to keep up the "magic of immersion" for the players during a game situation the key is "fastness" (sometimes through immediate creative interpretation) and not "rule perfection". If I were you the only rules I would learn before a session are the basics of skill resolution, chargen and combat. The rest can be added piece for piece.

Orientalist said:

You`re interesting Orientalist. And you`re very honest. And I suspect you are rather educated, your grasp on the eglish literature is fare better than mine (norwegian being my 1st language). You say (which is a mis-pronoun, since you actullay write, instead of saying), that you are from Hungary. So I am curious to know if there is any hungariang rpg games out there? Every person have their quirks, obsessions etc. And I think roleplayers are somewhat overrepresented with oddities.

I for instance are quite obsessed with getting the game mechanics flow as seamless they can in synergi with the storytelling aspect of the game. Once I discover a particular rule or mechanics that somehow stop the storytelling flow I must do something about it. At times I wake at night and have a "eureka" moment and start to jot down a few suggestions of improvment.

As a long time GM for warhammer and various other rpgs, I am only contend or happy if I am able to use the mechanics and rules in such a way that they enhance storytelling

For me a succesfull roleplaying night, is a perfect demonstration of good, balanced and integrated rules that flow with the story. I cannot simply run a social encounter or scene without using the rules, simply because the rules are there and therefor must be used in context with the story. If I have to settle or compromise than for me that evening is ruined. I can`t play with GMs who are bending rules or don`t use certain rules for the sake of the story.

In the same way I cannot cheat as a GM, everything has to be connected with the rules, even the storytelling. So if a protagonist is supossed to get away from the players to harass them another day, I must do so with in the boundaries of the rule, If I break the rules for him get away, I somehow break the storytelling to. As for me both the game mechanics and storytelling is integrated and as equal important to each other

This again lead to one of my dogmas "By cheating you allow the rules to work against you."
And another on of mine "A GM who`s mastering the rules, never needs to cheat to promote good storytelling"

So a game like WFRP, offers additional challenges to me since many of the rules are open for GM`s interpretation, and not consistent or clear in a authorative way. Giving me more responsibility rather than fewer. But I am getting adjusted to the idea.

In eye for an eye. There was a small dinner, which said that some of the servants would spill something like soup on the Pcs. This small paragraph in the modul, led me to produce two additional pages, including one map and layout of all particpating dinner guests and where they sat. Next I lined up the servants, added some mathematic formula for the chance or risk of what player would get the clumsy servant serving them. I called it a luck check, and each player had to make one.

But in the end it was good, the map of the dinner and guests, enhanced the storytelling for that act, and PC spent about an hour playing the dinnerparty talking, exchanging stories and so on.

Well enough rambling for me

Good gaming

Orientalist said:

Hey Orientalist,

I recognized a lot of myself in that statement of yours. But don't worry! I think you couldn't have picked a better RPG than the new Warhammer if you have trouble with heavily math-based rules like I do.

If you're having trouble really grasping the rules, I can tell you what worked for me:

I just made two characters and had them fight some beastmen, on my own, with the rulebook open on the table. It's a really good way of getting into the mindset of the game step by step. By doing it rather than reading about it, you get drawn into the system and it becomes much clearer. Later on you can try spellcasting, using XP to upgrade characters, changing careers etc.

This way you'll have a good grip on the game and I think you'll feel much less inhibited in seeking out other players. It's a great game and really not too heavy in its rules. I hope you'll have fun!

WFRP 3rd Edition rule summary:

When a player use a skill the GM give him a number of purple dies based on difficulty (0 is simple to 3 is very hard, an attack is by default difficulty of 1). The GM also add black die based on circonstances (1 for armor, 2 for armor and a shield, trying to fire an arrow at someone more elevated than you, etc). The black dices are mostly optional.

The player takes one yellow die if he's trained at what he's doing, he takes a number of blue dies equal to his stat related to the action, he then replace a number of blue dies equal to his stance (if he's two into red, he replaces two blue dies with 2 red dies). The GM add white dies if he thinks it's appropriate, same as black dies.

Player rolls everything. Die faces that are blank are ignored, each failure symbols removes one success symbol, each bane symbol removed a boon symbol and vice versa.

If at least one success symbol remains, the action succeeded. If bane or boon symbols remain, secondary effect come into play. Just look at the boon and bane symbols on the action card being used.

All the other rules are fluff. I've played in groups that didn't know or understand half the rules in the system they were playing and they had played for years. I wouldn't let myself get bothered with details. Seriously, nobody learned and understood the grapple rules in D&D 3.5.

Dear all,

Several weeks have passed since my belly-ache and I am afraid the ache continues to this day. I've tried, once again, to learn the rules. I go to sleep with dice pools and modifiers in my head but when I wake up next morning, all I know is "Where are my D&D 4E core books!?". Now that's something I can understand. I don't want to bore you any further. I am conscious that by now I must appear to you all as a lazy, nonsense, foolish man who can not grasp even something so simple and easy as Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. You might be right about that, after all. But enough with that, I say.

For instance, as much as I've tried I cant understand for my life how you actually fill up your character sheet. How do I know how much Strenght, how much Toughness, Ballistic Skill etc I have. No problem to laugh in my face, in fact I approve it, but really, can someone tell me how do you actually start making your character sheet? The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay rule-books must be one of the best core books ever published. Or more precisely said, the worst I've ever read. Nothing in them makes sense, if you are not a long time hardcore player. More, is there somekind of flow-chart, some sort of from A to Z in set-up? I have no idea about the set-up either. What do I need to start the game? How many cards, how many of those dices and what kind of dices and so on. I am broken, mentally broken. Where there is will, there is always a way. Yes, there is WILL!

Thanks to all.

First sample character, Human Apprentice Wizard, named Merlin. Write Merlin on your character sheet under "Character Name".

Choose a Race

You have 4 options: reiklander (human), dwarf, wood elf and high elf. Make one and stick with it, each race will provide certain boons as described in its particular page in the core ruleset. I've chosen Reiklander (Human). I selected human for my race, so looking at table 3.1 in page 30 of the core rulebook, I note that all of my characteristics start at 2. You should write "Reiklander" under "Race" in your character sheet. You should write "2" for the six characteristics (the white diamond) in your character sheet (Table 3-1). Under Special Abilities write "Adaptable" and "Favored by Fate" to remind you of the Reiklander's special abilities.

Choose a Career

You can pick 3 randomly and keep one, pick one randomly, or just choose one. Feel free to adopt the style that best suites your game and GM style. I'm just going to choose Apprentice Wizard. Choosing a increase the primary characteristics indicated on the Career Card by 1. In this case the Apprentice Wizard gains +1 to Intelligence and Willpower. You should write "Apprentice Wizard" in your character sheet under Current Career, and under Current Rank write "1".

After choosing an initial career you can increase by 1 the two primary characteristics indicated on the Career Card. Therefore the Apprentice Wizard career grants +1 to Intelligence and Willpower. You should replace the "2" in Intelligence and Willpower with a "3"

The wizard carrier is special because it allows characters to acquire the Spellcraft (p. 18)and Channeling (p 17) advanced skills for free. In your character sheet under Advanced skills write "Spellcraft INT" and below it write "Channeling WP". This means the character has acquired both of these advanced skills, but has not trained them.

As an Apprentice Wizard, I also have to choose an Order. I'll settle for a Celestial Order talent, as I want Merlin to be involved with the heavens and fate. It reflects the reasoned and analytical attitude of the character, thinking he can read at the world's intentions. I take the Celestial Order card for him.

Invest Creation Points

Looking back to Table 3-1 I notice that the Reiklander character starts with 25 creation points, which I have to spend in character creation (any points remaining are lost).

Now we can spend our Creation Points, of which I have 25. You might want to have some scratch paper handy if you can't keep these number all in your head. I have five different things I can spend these points on: characteristics, wealth, skills, talents and actions. Table 3.2 lists the costs for wealth, skills, talents and actions. The costs for characteristic increases are in p. 28, the basic formula requires you buy characteristics in 1 point increments, so don't buy two at increases at once unless you understand the underlying math.

I want Merlin to be incredibly bright, so I'm going to buy up his Intelligence to 5 (the maximum allowed during character creation p. 28). I'll upgrade his 3 Intelligence to 4, which will cost me 4 points, leaving me with 21 creation points. My final jump from 4 to 5 will cost me an additional 5 points, leaving me with 16 points remaining. In total I spent 9 points (4 + 5). In my character sheet, I erase the "3" in my Intelligence characteristic and replace it with a "5".

So I still have 16 points left to spend. I'm going to increase Merlin's Willpower from 3 to 4 as well, which will cost me 4 points. In my character sheet, I erase the "3" for Willpower and replace it with a "4".

That leaves me with 12 creation points remaining. Having a look at Table 3-2 I realize I want Merlin to be well learned so I want to make sure I have enough skills and actions available for him. So I purchase 3 points each of Skills. That leaves me with 9 points remaining.

Since I'm done purchasing characteristic increases I'm going to calculate the wound threshold which is 9 + toughness rating. So that works out to 9 + 2 = 11. I write "11" in the Wound Threshold field.

Purchase skills

I'll start by buying my skills first, I have a budget of 4 skills and 2 specializations. As an Apprentice Wizard I'm allowed to train all basic skills and the advanced skills listed under Career Skills in my Apprentice Wizard career card. Education is going to be important, so I'm going to acquire and that skill and train it, those two actions will cost me 2 of the 4 points I have. I write "Education INT" and mark one of the Trained boxes under Advanced Skills in my character sheet.

Next, I'm going to train Spellcraft, I want to specialize in this skill and I need to train in it in order to specialize it. I mark one of the Trained boxes in the line in which I wrote "Spellcraft" in the Advanced Skills section.

The last skill point I have will be spent on Magical Sight, as I want Merlin to be aware of the changes in the magical world. I write "Magical Sight INT" under Advanced Skills in my character sheet.

That leaves me with 2 specializations to spend. Looking at what's available in p. 16-20 of the rulebook I settle on Education: Reason, as Merlin will be an overtly analytical character. My last specialization will be spent on Spellcraft: Rank 1 spells, to give Merlin an edge with the easier spells. Under Specialisations I write "Education: Reason" and "Spellcraft: Rank 1 Spells".

Get Talent Cards

Now I'm going to purchase some Talent cards, I spend 3 points to get 3 talent cards. That leaves me with 6 creation points.

Since Merlin is an Apprentice Wizard he gets the Order talent card, in this case I choose the Azyr, Lore of the Heavens / Celestial Order card. I take the appropriate card and socket it to my character sheet. I add Celestial Order after Apprentice Wizard in Current Career.

Get Action Cards

First I'm going to get all of the basic action cards for which Merlin is eligible, which amounts to: Assess the Situation, Guarded Position, Melee Attack, Perform a Stunt and Ranged Attack. I take a copy of each of those cards and place them next to my character sheet.

Next, I'm going to get the Petty Magic cards and the Channel Power action card that the Apprentice Wizard gets (p. 31). So I get the following cards: Cantrip, Magic Dart, Counterspell and Channel Power. I take a copy of each of those cards and place them next to my character sheet.

Now I can choose to purchase additional cards. I'm going to spend 3 creation points to purchase 4 action cards. That leaves me with 3 creation points.

After some deliberation I decide on: Omen (Rank 1 spell), Curse (Rank 1 spell), The Cerulean Shield (Rank 1 spell) and Find Weakness (support). They all take advantage of my character's high Int, and the Cerulean Shield helps his survivability. I take a copy of each of those cards and place them next to my character sheet.

I write the names of all the extra cards I've purchased as part of my Card Inventory (back of character sheet).

Determine Wealth

Now I'm going to spend the last 3 creation points I have on wealth. I want Merlin to be wealthy so he can have access to some nice items and to reflect his success in reading people's fortunes. I'm going to skip purchasing items and writing them into the character sheet.

Determine Stance

In most cases you'd look at the career sheet to determine the stances for your character. In the case of the Apprentice Wizard this will be determined by the stances listed in the order talent card. Celestial Order shows three conservative blocks and one reckless one. I construct the appropriate stance meter (three green blocks, one netural block and one reckless block, in that order) and an activation token which I place on the neutral stance. I mark my stance in the character sheet section called stances (3 green blocks and 1 red block).

Hopefully this example helps you figure out the system

@Lexicanum: I don't know. I always name my wizards Pete the Burninator for some reason.

@dark reign: I completely agree with you about 3:16 Carnage. I have never enjoyed reading a set of rules so much. I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but it seems like it would be great fun. And thanks again for the fantasy range chart. it's great.

Lexicanum, Sir, you are to be treasured! Thank you kindly!

I am not sure if this was discussed before. The career sheets.

Let's say I want to play a Priest. So good so far.

I am browsing through the career sheets and I extract two of them:

Disciple - Advanced Career

Initiate - Basic Career

So I take the Basic Career Sheet. The name of the player is The Orientalist. A man, a He.

Then I take a look on my Basic Career Sheet in front of me and what do I see: a very solemn chick with a pigeon floating around her head.

What, I am sorry? How I am supposed to start the game as a fiery man Priest when the Basic Career Sheet in front of me shows a young lady?

I am doing something wrong or is this how is supposed to be?

Kinda off-putting, to say the least.........

Well, first off, you only pick Basic Careers, so take out ALL Advanced Career cards from the deck before choosing.

The art is just representational, pay it no mind when it comes to forming your character. There are Priest's of Shaylla (like the girl pictured), Sigmar (your fire and brimestone fellows) and Morr (morbid fellows). Each has their own flavour, vocation and goals. Don't let the art fool you into thinking you have to be an inspired young-lady.

Lexicanum, I think I understand what you are saying but really, how can one pay no mind to the art representing his own character. I mean, really, if I am playing a man I want to see the face of a man on my character sheet, not of a girl. Honestly, this is a very major put-off. The "flavor", the atmosphere is gone before you even start it...I'll have to find a way to change this. Right now it seems I cant play a Priest just because there are no men on the provided career sheets. Bah!

The picture isn't on your character sheet, it's on the career card and it performs the same function as any other RPG that has an illustration in a book next to a class, character archetype, or whatever. If it bothers you that much, create your own character sheet and copy the career info onto it. Some have already done something similar and you can download theirs. You may still want to create your own so you can leave yourself a place to draw your own character portrait since that seems to be important to you and I don't think the ones others have created have that.

Orientalist, I agree with your point. In our Role Playing games, both myself the GM and the players often have a hard enough time remembering even the most basic cahracteristics of the other players, such as Gender. If your manly priest ends up using the standup of a girly priest, I know that would casue much confusion around my gaming table. I really like the various pieces of this RPG and also believe they convey various amounts of information effectively. However, if the playing pieces are not representative of what they relate to, they actually cause confusion.

In the end, this will eventually be mitigated as more materials are available. But as every possibility will likely not be covered by published stand-ups and career cards and perhaps other components, we will be required to not pay too much attention to the art on the various components as it may not be representative of the character in question. As for myself, I am purposely limiting my character concepts to those that closely match the art in order to avoid this kind of confusion or disconnect. It is unfortunate to feel the need to do so, but I am content with it. It just makes me look forward to all the yet to be published materials, since for me, they will truly open up all new character concepts.