I'm mostly weighted in X-Wing and I am a super-novice in this awesome game of capital ships, I'm not talking the local bulk cruisers, I'm talking the big corellian ships. Anyway, FFG seems to be in the process of unbalancing X-Wing (opinions of me and my buddies who play fanatically) to favor the Rebels and nerf the limited Imps to oblivion as the curb the --up to now-- power faction of the game: Scum. Maybe it's by design? Some sick, twisted design....uggggggg.

We're all getting sick of it....so we're getting out Armada and gonna put our energies and $$ there for a change. When we play X-Wing, it'll be without FAQs and pre-stupid-Jumpmaster Wave. It's sad to see X-Wing there....but Armada is a sweet option.

....thanks for letting me vent gents!

As a dedicated X-Winger and newbie to Armada, I think you may need to take off your tinfoil hat. (Also nice reference.) I'm pretty sure x-Wing is actually growing right now so I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. But, Armada is insanely fun and I'm glad I finally made the plunge.

I do get tired of the super card combos in X-Wing. MtG in space.

To add to the anecdotal evidence, xwing is dead in my area, down from 20+ players. We have 6 consistent armada players, and looking to grow.

The two games have the same spirit but are different in many ways. I like X-Wing for the fact that it's a quicker game than Armada (when the time is a issue), the learning curve is less hard than Armada for new players but... Armada is so much deeper with all the variables, the game ship vs squadron, the Corellian Conflict, etc...

Welcome aboard and enjoy the show

All FFG become MtG. It's just a matter of time. Our locals have all figured it out, and interest in all their games is waning except Destiny.

I've packed up all my X-Wing stuff up into boxes - after 5 years of playing - until it improves. All it is around here is combo after combo wrapped up around overpowered ships. Scum just seems to be overpowered and the game is out of balance.

Armada is my game to go to for fun, at least its balanced and there is no real meta to speak off.

A friend of mine who also got into the game at the same time as me - basically when X-Wing came out - is now selling up and playing Armada as well as other games

I dont think you can ever have Armada all figured out. Not at its current stage anyways.

X wing isn't getting unbalanced, it's becoming older and dealing with inevitable power creep. It's still s fun game in scenario play where you get to limit upgrades and complexity and there's still some fun lists but it's just a sign of the game getting older. It happens.

Guess what? The longer Armada goes the more this will happen to it too.

As for comparing it to Magic that's hardly a fair comparison because it lacks the theme that x wing and Armada do. In the end the cards are nothing but rules with a picture. In FFG mini games the miniature gets appropriate rules, and is balanced as secondary. In magic I need a Mythic Rare in blue, then apply some flavor. In x wing you need to accurately depict a ship from the universe, and then tweak it to fit in the game.

Yes, Armada may have a slower release schedule, but the expansion structure of Armada doesn't solve the problems X-Wing is experiencing. Inevitably there will be expansions that make other ships obsolete... we've pretty much seen it with the ISD pushing the VSD out of competitiveness. The Quasar may be the nail in the coffin for carrier VSDs, depending on cost and performance. Already there are some cards and commanders that are never taken over the better options (like Tagge, or Garm), and there are entire units that, at least, I don't think ever see play (like Generic YVs, or Scurrgs).

That all said, perhaps there is some hope in the slower/fewer release schedule of Armada that FFG can release better balanced and thoughtful expansions than the rapid pace of X-Wing. In the very least Armada doesn't seem to have the equivelant of the TIE Advanced; a fighter that for the longest time was simply outclassed and outcosted by much better options. Armada doesn't have a card like Proton Torpedoes- a secondary weapons card that is always dropped for sake of points, and the one-shot nature of the ordnance meant it was too unreliable to invest in.

Where I feel with Armada right now, compared to X-Wing, I feel Armada is still maintained in balance. I grumble about the VSD's niche performance these days, but VSDs are still valid in a way. TIE Advanced always struggled in X-Wing until they got their patches out of the Raider kit.

But this is also another reason I don't ever want to see scum in Armada. Scum's modus operendi seems to be "anything goes", and these wacky loose abilities can create more potential for mayhem and power combinations with the illicit slot. Green dice and Scum are the two biggest reasons I left X-Wing, and hearing stories about both make me feel justified in my opinion.

Come and play Rebels my friend, you will find in the Nebulon B a well designed consistent, multipurpose and balanced ship.

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

Yes, Armada may have a slower release schedule, but the expansion structure of Armada doesn't solve the problems X-Wing is experiencing. Inevitably there will be expansions that make other ships obsolete... we've pretty much seen it with the ISD pushing the VSD out of competitiveness. The Quasar may be the nail in the coffin for carrier VSDs, depending on cost and performance. Already there are some cards and commanders that are never taken over the better options (like Tagge, or Garm), and there are entire units that, at least, I don't think ever see play (like Generic YVs, or Scurrgs).

That all said, perhaps there is some hope in the slower/fewer release schedule of Armada that FFG can release better balanced and thoughtful expansions than the rapid pace of X-Wing. In the very least Armada doesn't seem to have the equivelant of the TIE Advanced; a fighter that for the longest time was simply outclassed and outcosted by much better options. Armada doesn't have a card like Proton Torpedoes- a secondary weapons card that is always dropped for sake of points, and the one-shot nature of the ordnance meant it was too unreliable to invest in.

Where I feel with Armada right now, compared to X-Wing, I feel Armada is still maintained in balance. I grumble about the VSD's niche performance these days, but VSDs are still valid in a way. TIE Advanced always struggled in X-Wing until they got their patches out of the Raider kit.

But this is also another reason I don't ever want to see scum in Armada. Scum's modus operendi seems to be "anything goes", and these wacky loose abilities can create more potential for mayhem and power combinations with the illicit slot. Green dice and Scum are the two biggest reasons I left X-Wing, and hearing stories about both make me feel justified in my opinion.

See where your going, but all the examples you gave in regards to never seeing generic YVs or scurrgs must be where you are based because I still regularly see or take part in games with these generics.

thats the thing I love about armada though, there is no meta of sorts. Sure there's a general theme with what ships to take, but you will still see fleets that break this theme constantly and win, despite how illogical they may seem. That's why I love armada, the sheer amount of fleets you can take and still have a chance at winning the game thanks to your own strategy and/or luck

Well, I took a couple of YVs just the other day actually. It's only Scurrgs I've never seen, because they only have speed over B-Wings, which I see far more often from top level Rebel fighter players.

But that actually points to the game being healthier, IMO, than X-Wing, where players are still choosing those fighters and making competitive lists out of them. In X-Wing, the TIE Advanced was competitively dead when Wave 2 came out. I held 4 early on in the game's life and never took them to tournament.

The thing that has struck in X-Wing vs Armada, is that Armada didn't write out a core concept of the game in the second wave (specifically, 360* firing arcs) when you take half of the game out of the game for two of the three factions it is really a poor balance point to be in. (...I'm not a bitter Interceptor player at all...don't look at me like that!)

One of my favorite things about Armada is that I can actually grab my favorite ships from the Star Wars universe, build them with reasonable upgrade choices, and have a list that can play into any other list. I can't stand being shoe-horned into powerbuilds and net list designs just to avoid being completely flattened in even casual play, and Armada delivers that.

I'd rather they release slower, to fix the odd things that creep up...and make a dedicated FAQ

3 hours ago, Alzer said:

One of my favorite things about Armada is that I can actually grab my favorite ships from the Star Wars universe, build them with reasonable upgrade choices, and have a list that can play into any other list. I can't stand being shoe-horned into powerbuilds and net list designs just to avoid being completely flattened in even casual play, and Armada delivers that.

I'm still bitter though that I can't take my VSDs into gunship roles. It's either carriers, or find something cheaper/swarmier to be competitive. On the other hand, Gladiator Star Destroyers are making a strong showing for Legends-era content by offering Demolisher as the most powerful Imperial unit. Gladiators still have not been recanonized... even the Victories are back thanks to the Tarkin book.

I like what you're saying Norsehound even though I don't really get the references ?

9 hours ago, Norsehound said:

I'm still bitter though that I can't take my VSDs into gunship roles.

You can do this. It takes a little work, but it can be done.

I hate the "mandatory upgrade" trick, but that's how it is for the VSD right now. Moff Jerry, and Minister Tua. Slap on some Ion Cannons, and a turbolaser and you've got a sweet gunship. As overpriced as they are, I've found Enhanced Armaments to be very nice on a VSD.

My biggest issue is that Minister Tua is unique, so I can't attach her to multiple VSD. I'm hoping to see more of her; possibly as a new class of card "customization." They did something similar in X-Wing, adding zero-point, ship-linked modifications to buff the old ships up to level.

Customization: Each ship can only have one customization. Each customization card is linked to a specific class of ship. Each customization card costs two points, takes up a slot, and provides a replacement slot. For example, GSD only: replace Ordnance with Turbolaser. Another GSD only, replace Support with Offensive Retrofit. Make them non-unique, so I can customize all copies in a fleet. Probably a max of two options per ship; that would make six VSD options. Base model, Custom A, or Custom B, for both VSD-1 and VSD-2.

We don't need these for every ship, and certainly not for every possible combination of upgrades, but some of the older ships are at a distinct disadvantage. I'd also like to see an officer, title, or similar (maybe even just fresh cards in a tournament kit - they did some Errata cards that way in Imperial Assault) to add an extra defence token to VSD, CR-90 and Neb-B. At first it seemed that only Large ships would have 4 defence tokens, with medium and small having three. But after wave 2, I think, everything but flotillas is up to 4 tokens. Buff the old ships got left behind.

My desired list is a couple of gun VSDs escorting a gun ISD with just enough of a fighter screen to tie up fighters, and allow the massive batteries to destroy all ships. Fighter lists are a very hard counter to it, the key part being that large ships can't deal with too many massed small attacks. It's just how the game is now.

I figure VSDs can be made into gunships but for two key problems running this as a list-type. First is you need to have some response to fighters... the universe is too full of Rhymerballs and Yavaris Bomber clouds (at least in my meta) to ignore. Even if your ships ignore 1-4 squadrons of fighters, you need to have a response handy for fighter happy lists. The QF could do this, if I knew more about the QF. Settling on Gozantis means structuring your fighter list for only 2 activations at a time, unless you push to make those GZs more expensive.

The other problem is allowing your VSDs to suffer small points of damage. Say you're facing a couple of CR-90s with TRCs. Its' guranteed that they're doing 2 damage minimum per shot. If you're attacked by both, should you allow yourself to burn both braces before, say, that MC-30 closes in and attacks? And when the VSD fires, how likely is the bluster out of that battery just evaded away or cancelled out of the Admonition title?

I know of those cards that people like (Jerjerrod, Tua) but personally I don't think they can help Victories in the way I'd want to. Jerjerrod works only if your opponent allows you to close, or you respond to attackers that close rapidly with you. An opponent who is slow-rolling will have the luxury of getting those snapshots off at long range, and if you're face to face with a target, Jerjerrod won't help. An opponent can blow the shields off the face of a Victory before the VSD has the chance to get the second row of its' front battery engaged, and Jerjerrod doesn't help in that.

Tua, Needa, Warlord+h9s... these cards are good to help VSDs, but not all VSDs. I'd love to run a small fleet of three and have that be competitive, and while I can put those solutions on each one of these ships, it means where they are deployed in relation to the enemy matters. Needa is going to be worthless if I replace a redirect with an evade only to have an MC-30 park in front of me two turns later.

@Norsehound

How to you deal with opponents who don't allow your slow ships to close? Take player 2 and make them select from missions that let you decide where the conflict must take place (or else they give up big points). Player 1 is an attraction for gunship builds, but one of the biggest strengths of Armada is the objective system.

Is Armada Perfect? No. But name one Miniature Game that is perfect. Hell, name one Miniature Game that is definitely better than Armada.

I'll wait...

But let's give credit where it's due. Nothing in Armada is "dead", there are some less desirable ships but everything can be good in a solid player's hands. This game is one that rewards good tactics and strategies and doesn't just focus on List Building. (A common problem for most games.) And that's what I see being nitpicked at here, no solid list building for the under loved ships.

And back to the OP that is what makes Armada so good right now is that List Building doesn't decide the game, your abilities do. FFG had a lot of time to think about how to design a game after their experience with X-Wing and I feel they took the best parts of X-Wing and fixed the weaker rules while creating more depth. A real win in my book.

So can it be better, sure. But name a game that got it right.

On 4/1/2017 at 6:57 AM, migs6000 said:

As a dedicated X-Winger and newbie to Armada, I think you may need to take off your tinfoil hat. (Also nice reference.) I'm pretty sure x-Wing is actually growing right now so I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. But, Armada is insanely fun and I'm glad I finally made the plunge.

Yeah but I see where the OP is coming from, I too am also flabbergasted by FFG's Pen & ink nerfs which suspiciously coincides with the whining on the X-wing forums. It does make X-wing players look for alternatives. So with X-wing players getting fed up with the X-wing meta-competitive environment some of them may move over into Armada. Now that doesn't mean X-wing is doomed, because clearly there are more players joining X-wing than leaving, but those players leaving X-wing still want a Star Wars space game one that isn't all focused on the meta and getting new waves and new FAQs every 4 months. The slower game-play changes to Armada looks way better in that prospect.

22 hours ago, Alzer said:

The thing that has struck in X-Wing vs Armada, is that Armada didn't write out a core concept of the game in the second wave (specifically, 360* firing arcs) when you take half of the game out of the game for two of the three factions it is really a poor balance point to be in. (...I'm not a bitter Interceptor player at all...don't look at me like that!)

One of my favorite things about Armada is that I can actually grab my favorite ships from the Star Wars universe, build them with reasonable upgrade choices, and have a list that can play into any other list. I can't stand being shoe-horned into powerbuilds and net list designs just to avoid being completely flattened in even casual play, and Armada delivers that.

It should be noted, that when they were developing the game of X-wing, or any game for that matter, from the ground up years before they put wave zero up as an announcement let alone on the shelf, wave one was probably going through final package and product design and wave two was probably developed already except for some meta adjusting add ins. Games with steady expansions have to be a bit predesigned before release, just like how we know from interviews X-wing has the next two (three?) waves already in development at any given time. Wave one and two were mostly done when the starters first hit stores.

So really it's not something they up and decided to do in wave two, Turret play was always part of the original design for X-wing. Not saying they got it 100% right, but it was always the plan.

20 hours ago, Norsehound said:

On 4/1/2017 at 6:52 PM, Norsehound said:

Yes, Armada may have a slower release schedule, but the expansion structure of Armada doesn't solve the problems X-Wing is experiencing. Inevitably there will be expansions that make other ships obsolete... we've pretty much seen it with the ISD pushing the VSD out of competitiveness. The Quasar may be the nail in the coffin for carrier VSDs, depending on cost and performance. Already there are some cards and commanders that are never taken over the better options (like Tagge, or Garm), and there are entire units that, at least, I don't think ever see play (like Generic YVs, or Scurrgs).

That all said, perhaps there is some hope in the slower/fewer release schedule of Armada that FFG can release better balanced and thoughtful expansions than the rapid pace of X-Wing. In the very least Armada doesn't seem to have the equivelant of the TIE Advanced; a fighter that for the longest time was simply outclassed and outcosted by much better options. Armada doesn't have a card like Proton Torpedoes- a secondary weapons card that is always dropped for sake of points, and the one-shot nature of the ordnance meant it was too unreliable to invest in.

Where I feel with Armada right now, compared to X-Wing, I feel Armada is still maintained in balance. I grumble about the VSD's niche performance these days, but VSDs are still valid in a way. TIE Advanced always struggled in X-Wing until they got their patches out of the Raider kit.

But this is also another reason I don't ever want to see scum in Armada. Scum's modus operendi seems to be "anything goes", and these wacky loose abilities can create more potential for mayhem and power combinations with the illicit slot. Green dice and Scum are the two biggest reasons I left X-Wing, and hearing stories about both make me feel justified in my opinion.

I'll echo my love for the slow release of Armada waves.

I was a dedicated X-Wing player for about a year. Then I felt I was falling behind the meta after the release of some new waves (TLTs, baby!), and then work and life kept me out of anything competitive for about 4 months--which happened right after Armada came out. I felt completely out of touch with X-Wing, but I had no problem getting back into Armada and playing very competitively at that point.

But like you, I wonder what Armada will look like in 3-4 years, when FFG will have scraped the bottom of the barrel to find new capital ships and add new mechanics and combinations.