The large issue is breaking the 2 maneuvers per turn hard limit set by the system for balance. Nothing is stopping them from leaping -> engage or Disengage -> Leap however if you allow them to engage/disengage for free they can Leap->Leap or Leap-> Move which really messes with the games action and movement economy.

As i said it just doesn't really work per raw and per design without more convoluted/confusing/exploitable rules imposing limitations upon leap, either racial or force.

That said, a lot of us here are talking about the RAW and the design intent (as expressed from the order 66 interview) as that is the largest common grounds for rules comparison, debate, and discussion. The good news is RAW only matters if RAW matters. If you want to throw out RAW at the table well ... do it. Seriously chuck it out. The only important factor is that the group at the table playing the game is having fun. Different people have fun in different ways. Personally i like to stick close to RAW, however i do stray from it in places also. Everyone has fun differently and while i might have more fun with RAW, if i'm not a part of that group at that table ... well it doesn't really matter too much. I want that group to have fun.

However i would suggest to maintain the action/maneuver econ present in the game that if you allow leap to ignore engage/disengage allow regular movement to as well. It will maintain parity in the system and the balance envisioned by the design and RAW. But with that also, if ya don't like it, don't want it, or just think i smell funny chuck it.

1 hour ago, GroggyGolem said:

Doesn't have to be a maneuver with Leap when you have that upgrade . Actually, it looks like once you have the upgrade for Force Leap that lets you use a maneuver, it's mandatory that it only be used as a maneuver (doesn't use the word may), so apparently you can't use it as an Action if you buy that upgrade.

Force Leap is an Action when you initially buy it as part of the Enhance Force power. As you upgrade it will get to the point where it can be used as a Maneuver instead of burning an Action.

I think part of the problem here is how this racial ability is used is going to determine what it is, a Maneuver or an Action, which is why I'm sure they don't spell it out. Kyuzo can leap to a location within Medium range, doesn't mean anything beyond that. What that movement encompasses will determine what it is, just like it does for everyone else. A human wants to simply change a range band, it's a Maneuver. They want to do a vertical leap onto a moving platform, it's an Athletics check, and an Action. Same for a Kyuzo, they're simply going to be able go farther than a human. How far is something a GM should be deciding, but clearly Embo is superhuman in his abailities.

So using descriptions in Athletics, a Kyuzo wants to simply jump across a parking lot, has good shoes, lighting, no earthquakes, blaster fire etc., I wouldn't have them roll anything it's simply a routine task well within their racial capability. If we aren't in structured play, you could call it a Maneuver, but that's nothing but academics and semantics.

Same Kyuzo wants to jump across a chasm, it's raining, dark, they can't see the other side, and we are in combat and people are shooting at them, I'd make that an Athletics check, regardless of the distance, just like I would for a Human, it's just I'd allow a Kyuzo to make the attempt if it was Medium range.

So there isn't a one size fits answer because imo there can't be. Humans or any other race would all be treated the same way, Kyuzo can just jump farther, it doesn't mean they're magically gifted with an ability to not follow all the other rules in structured play. That's why it doesn't specifically call it out as a Maneuver.

3 hours ago, SladeWeston said:

Sorry, somewhere along the line I let my tone shift and I apologize. Don't get me wrong, I still think you're wrong, but I should have been less jerky about it.

Believe it or not, I was trying to be helpful. I wanted to try and provide you some perspective on how you might interpret the rules so that they align with the Devs interpretation. I shouldn't have made this into an internet argument, because there really isn't one. Clearly the Devs don't see "any location" as the same as "any range band". They didn't balance the ability to work that way and have explained how engaged works together with Dense Musculature in the Forged in Battle Order 66 podcasts.

I understand you wanting the leap to be cooler than it is. Who doesn't want their character to be cooler? I understand that the wording is confusing. The Engaged range band section is a confusing mess. Engages is simultaneously a range band, a sub-range band, and a status. While the DM ability just says location but doesn't say much beyond that.

Sorry if I got carried away trying to convince you. Hopefully there are no hard feelings.

No worries. I agree the rules as written are a mess and they get messier when you apply the developer responses a lot of the time. To me, taking the abilities as literal and strictly as they are written seems like the simplest solution but I can understand it that you don't necessarily agree.

Sorry if I came off as overly loud about my houserule.

On 04/04/2017 at 8:20 PM, GroggyGolem said:

They need to change the way the rules are written then, because "...any location in medium range" on both Kyuzo and Force Leap is wrong according to their response.

Either they can move to "any location" or they cannot and it shouldn't be written that way.

Also, can't normal characters just use athletics to increase the distance traveled? If so, what's the difference then other than Kyuzo and Force Users can do so slightly in a slightly easier way?

If you read the description of engaged range there it says that engaged isnt exactly a range as such but the extra time that you have to take to approach an item or person safely. It may be a matter of a few feet. Example , you do a Kyuzo leap to within 5 feet of an opponent, narratively they back off slightly rather tan have you land on top of them, you now have to engage with them, which is the narrative "penalty" to approach them safely. This is akin to Attacks of Opportunity but done differently.

Without it melee characters would be useless in the game as it would be too easy to just kite them and they would never get close enough to hit. Note that hawkbat swoop lets you get engaged to an opponent but not disengage, which goes to show how powerful the leaps/jumps and free running woud be otherwise.