17 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

They are already implementing a fluid online rule book with Legion and many other companies have what I stated above. So I really want to know why it’s not practical in the real world?

I don't get it either. One of the first things that came to my mind when I started playing this game was... " I wonder if there's an application on the Play Store that would help me build my squad? " There I was hoping to find one, and I found 3 or 4. All developed by people who apparently take the time to update them with the new expansions from time to time. I see absolutely no reason why the powers that be at research and development couldn't create a proprietary one. Almost seems like a missed opportunity in this day and age. I mean why stop at the dice application.

Maybe it's a licensing thing. "Oh, we're sorry, but we weren't able to sell you a plastic miniature with your Samsung Galaxy 7."

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "

That, and it’s hard to sell an all-inclusive in the box requirement when you don’t include a Smartphone for people who don’t own one.

2 hours ago, Sithborg said:

And not really practical in the real world.

What? If anything, it’s MORE practical.

What would you prefer- An errata list online that changes physical cards without actually changing them, or an app/website that is the go to source at all times for all players that adjusts point costs and makes other slight changes that assures the game never gets dominated by any particular card, pilot, ship, build, squadron, or faction?

The counter argument would be that you shouldn’t force your player base to have to have a computer/smart phone to compete.

... But it is 2017. It would be very safe to assume that someone who is electing to spend $30+ on tiny, plastic toys as an adult has access to a computer and/or smartphone on a regular basis.

43 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

That, and it’s hard to sell an all-inclusive in the box requirement when you don’t include a Smartphone for people who don’t own one.

I don’t think it would even need to be a requirement to play. Sure, print the physical cards in the expansion releases. But for tournament play, require the use of the official squad builder which regularly updates to take care of balance issues that will arise at higher levels of play.

15 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I don’t think it would even need to be a requirement to play. Sure, print the physical cards in the expansion releases. But for tournament play, require the use of the official squad builder which regularly updates to take care of balance issues that will arise at higher levels of play.

Which will either cost the company a ton of cross-market, cross-platform development (and authorisation).

Or exclude people.

14 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Which will either cost the company a ton of cross-market, cross-platform development (and authorisation).

Or exclude people.

There have been members of this forum who have created squad builders for the web and the phone... it can’t be that costly, right?

6 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

There have been members of this forum who have created squad builders for the web and the phone... it can’t be that costly, right?

That certainly devalues the work that people put in on their own accord to support the game.

I mean, I've done these sorts of things before with other games.

In short, I'm sure if they turned around and worked out how much time they had actually spent on it, and then attributed it to minimum wage while they were doing so, it would end up costing a lot .

And FFG isn't an individual, its a company, and thus are subject to different laws and approvals in doing so. those certainly cost money.

And then of course, continual development and expansion.

That's what killed Games Workshop's official Squad Builder program..

Now I haven't taken the time to read every post added to this thread, so there is a possibility that someone may have already touched on what I want to talk about this morning, but here it goes anyway. I was pretty quick to jump on the "Let's ban the JM5K" bandwagon, but after watching The World Championship match a second time, I'm now not quite as sure that the ship itself is the biggest offender here. I've read complaints about the turrets, but I didn't see the turrets play a huge part in the match. People have also complained about Dengar, but I didn't feel that he came into play that often, and when he did it probably wouldn't have been insurmountable if it wasn't for Expertise.

Expertise, now this particular upgrade is where I see the real issue. Expertise, especially when coupled with Guidance Chips, made those initial plasma torpedo volleys just ridiculously powerful. Throw in Mindlink, and the ability to stack focus tokens that will really never be used for anything but defence, and you shouldn't have much of a problem sluffing off anything you're opponent can at throw you.

When I look at the lists most people played in that tournament, most people seem to favor upgrades with the lowest possible cost, and rightly so, but I think we're going to start seeing a lot more of Expertise. When my son and I started playing this game we both fell in love with Push the Limit, but why take that upgrade for 3 points and get a stress token when I can take expertise, still take a focus token for defence with my action, and have perma-focus for every attack I make. Want proof that expertise is going to be a serious issue in the future... I decided to go on eBay last night and see how much a copy of this card would cost. There are several online retailers with pages on that website dedicated to selling upgrade cards for this game. Not a single copy of Expertise was available. Every page I visited was sold out.

So in closing I think the real issue with the JM5K is the fact that it allows you to take pretty much every add-on that's broken in this game. Let's review. 360 degree attack radius, because maneuvering is overrated. Not happy with only two or three attack dice, who cares, projectiles should be your calling card anyway. You want extra attacks, done. You want to be able to survive death, no problem. Focus tokens, lol, you got those for days. And finally, don't let those pesky laws of probability get you down because we have an answer for that too... Expertise.

I've only been at this game for a couple of weeks, and it surprises me that there are so many people that don't feel this is an issue. I have fallen completely in love with this game and I'm already worried that my initial investment, which was serious, is going to end up being money not so well spent. Alarm bells are ringing.

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "

55 minutes ago, Darth Nadir said:

I've only been at this game for a couple of weeks, and it surprises me that there are so many people that don't feel this is an issue. I have fallen completely in love with this game and I'm already worried that my initial investment, which was serious, is going to end up being money not so well spent. Alarm bells are ringing.

I think that depends entirely on what you thought you were getting from that investment.

14 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think they depends entirely on what you thought you were getting from that investment.

That is a truth fact. For the most part, regardless of what happens on the community and tournament side of things, it was something for me and my son to do when I have visitation. That won't change. We at least have some control over what we play, and how we play it. That being said, one of the reasons I got into this game was because so many people told me how amazingly balanced it was. I guess we were just a little late to the party. If I was ever to take him to a tournament, it would be nice if he had more than two or three viable options to be competitive. At least he's a rebel player, and there are some good options there. Now for me, I'm an Imperial player, and regardless of how things are going for the Empire right now, my loyalty to the dark side is strong.

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "

41 minutes ago, Darth Nadir said:

I've only been at this game for a couple of weeks, and it surprises me that there are so many people that don't feel this is an issue. I have fallen completely in love with this game and I'm already worried that my initial investment, which was serious, is going to end up being money not so well spent. Alarm bells are ringing.

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "

Maybe the reason you think that 'so many people don't feel it is an issue' is because you've only been playing for a couple of weeks. The jumpmaster has been widely acknowledged in the community to be a problem ever since it dropped.

Good news though, FAQs on its way (supposedly)

1 hour ago, Darth Nadir said:

Expertise, now this particular upgrade is where I see the real issue.

Is it an issue on any other platform?

And do you know whether the Jumpmaster was already an issue before Expertise was released?

And do you know how many Jumpmasters are played without Expertise?

18 hours ago, Thormind said:

Problem is you would need to raise the ship cost by a lot to balance it. Take Dengar Nym for example. Remove the 2 torps from Dengar (raise cost of ship by 5 pts) and you still have a nasty build.

If that is the problem, then it seems my suggestion is needed even more.

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 1:33 PM, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

FFG opts to fix via rules adjustment, which just seems really wrong-headed to me. Everything costs points. Being OP in this environment most often means when you take Ship-X you get a f**load more bang for your pts that taking Ship-Y. Adjust the pts to even that out. Making new rules often has ripples outside of Ship-X's OP status.

Will some folks have to adjust their tourney lists because the points no longer work out -Yes! Why is that such a horrible outcome? They adjust their lists based on other kinds of nerfs anyway.

Banning a MTG card makes sense, a ship, not so much.

To be honest this.

I think many of the complaints about this game could be fixed if they cut off half of the bloated work-arounds in the faq, left it for rules clarifications, and just came up with a points adjustment.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a home-brew points adjustment sheet out there they are working on? Anyone know of anyone working on anything like this?

Seems like something that, with enough data, the community could easily come up with their own points mod file.

Just now, Gibbilo said:

To be honest this.

I think many of the complaints about this game could be fixed if they cut off half of the bloated work-arounds in the faq, left it for rules clarifications, and just came up with a points adjustment.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a home-brew points adjustment sheet out there they are working on? Anyone know of anyone working on anything like this?

Seems like something that, with enough data, the community could easily come up with their own points mod file.

Points cost adjustments can't really solve everything but they'd be a very useful tool - they help you to incentivise/disincentivise different things without changing what they are. Some things are the right effect at the wrong cost. Some things are the wrong effect at the right cost. Some things are just the wrong effect at any cost.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Is it an issue on any other platform?

And do you know whether the Jumpmaster was already an issue before Expertise was released?

And do you know how many Jumpmasters are played without Expertise?

Your point is not invalid, at least for the moment anyway. No, I haven't seen a lot of ships being played with that particular upgrade. My point is I think that's going to change. Not just for the ship in question, but on the whole. I believe this for two reasons... One, it was played on the team that won the World Championship and people are going to notice that the effect it had, and two, its just ridiculously good for its points. Again, most players seem to gravitate more towards upgrades that have a very low cost associated with them. This one might be more expensive, but for what it does...

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "

2 minutes ago, Darth Nadir said:

Your point is not invalid, at least for the moment anyway. No, I haven't seen a lot of ships being played with that particular upgrade. My point is I think that's going to change. Not just for the ship in question, but on the whole. I believe this for two reasons... One, it was played on the team that won the World Championship and people are going to notice that the effect it had, and two, its just ridiculously good for it's points. Again, most players seem to gravitate more towards upgrades that have a very low cost associated with them. This one might be more expensive, but for what it does...

While that might be true, it is an entirely different discussion. And it is independent of the Jumpmaster and whether he should be the first ban or not.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

While that might be true, it is an entirely different discussion. And it is independent of the Jumpmaster and whether he should be the first ban or not.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's true. In this situation, you can't just look at the ship. Most people don't roll up with just the model and a generic pilot. A tournament winning list is the sum of its parts, and certain ships naturally have a better combination of possible upgrades. If you look at the list that won Worlds, you have two ships with very high pilot skills. Enough ordinance to not only deliver a devastating alpha strike, but follow it up a second time on the next turn. With Expertise and Guidance Chips those Plasma Torpedoes are going to be very damaging to a small ship and even large ships will be stripped of the majority of their shielding if not all of it. Mindlink allows you to stack up focus tokens that you simply do not need when you're attacking because of Expertise. Sure, there is the backdraw of stacking up stress as well, but by the time that even becomes an issue your opponent is most likely knocking on death's door.

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "

2 minutes ago, Darth Nadir said:

In this situation, you can't just look at the ship.

I agree, and I'm not just looking at the ship.

I'm looking at the fact that Jumpmasters were a problem before Expertise was released, which means the Jumpmaster is a problem independent of Expertise.
I'm looking at the fact that DengarNym, basically the only combination of Jumpmaster and Expertise and hence the only link for you to use, is massively under-performing while Triple Jumps, without Expertise, are still dominating. Which means Expertise is not the problem in the context of the Jumpmaster.

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I agree, and I'm not just looking at the ship.

I'm looking at the fact that Jumpmasters were a problem before Expertise was released, which means the Jumpmaster is a problem independent of Expertise.
I'm looking at the fact that DengarNym, basically the only combination of Jumpmaster and Expertise and hence the only link for you to use, is massively under-performing while Triple Jumps, without Expertise, are still dominating. Which means Expertise is not the problem in the context of the Jumpmaster.

Triple Jumps is dominating, but it didn't win the Championship. You and I are not in disagreement over the fact that the ship is dominating in other ways. All I'm saying is the champion found a way to take that concept and refine it into something truly brutal. I guess what I'm saying is that it's going to get worse. The ship in itself is broken, and people are going to find new and exciting ways to make it more so.

Edit: One other little thing... I am curious how one could consider winning the championship underperforming? I mean did the guy even lose a game? I don't remember seeing a loss, but I could be mistaken.

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith "

2 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

Speaking of which, does anyone have a home-brew points adjustment sheet out there they are working on? Anyone know of anyone working on anything like this?

Seems like something that, with enough data, the community could easily come up with their own points mod file.

I have one which was used for the vassal league for offseason play.

While the league did not incentivize winning beyond a player’s competitive spirit (players were instead encouraged to get in as many games as possible for a higher chance to win a prize), I believe it was a success, but hearing from those who participated would be more valuable than my own conclusion.

one of the big drawbacks was the struggle of building a squad with all the point changes. If there was a squad builder that enabled me to change point costs and then use a link that took into account those changes, things would have run a lot smoother.

One of the best moments was when a player ran a list with the largest point discount possible. I think his list came out to 132 points in the standard game or something absurd like that.

As it would have it, he still lost by a wide margin if memory serves me right.

You don't ban a whole SKU... what do you think they hate money and their customers?

Fascinating that I am getting more likes on this thread now than when it was first posted.

On the points adjustments piece... I'm probably more interested in the cards that get cost reductions than those you'd increase.

Increasing cost just takes away things that you don't like, reducing cost is your chance to say 'here, do this instead and life will be better'.

18 hours ago, Kdubb said:

There have been members of this forum who have created squad builders for the web and the phone... it can’t be that costly, right?

The expense would be in hiring developers and paying them to do the work. Those of us who maintain web/mobile builders are doing it for free in our spare time because we love the game. Software engineers don't come cheap though when you're hiring someone at a company