10 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

What prevents them from doing that now?

Is there some requirement I'm not aware of where you have to hand in your list before even showing up at a tournament?

That's mostly how it works here yes, you send the list beforehand so the TO has time to verify the lists withouth losing time the tournament day.

20 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The big events we have on the UK have a deadline for list submission a week or two in advance of the tournament.

6 minutes ago, DreadStar said:

That's mostly how it works here yes, you send the list beforehand so the TO has time to verify the lists withouth losing time the tournament day.

Interesting. I've only been to a handful of store events, and never run into this requirement.

20 minutes ago, DreadStar said:

That's mostly how it works here yes, you send the list beforehand so the TO has time to verify the lists withouth losing time the tournament day.

I'm genuinely curious if that's the norm for large events anywhere. I mean it makes sense, but I've heard various podcast hosts more than once telling stories about how they finally settled on their lists on the drive to the event,or the night before.

It's how the big TO that gets Opens/Nats works. It's also stupid.

As mentioned players are deciding last minute often, or changing based on results of other events. And the lists they get in are never used for anything - nobody actually checks it's what you're flying.

2 hours ago, LordBlades said:

I'm genuinely curious if that's the norm for large events anywhere. I mean it makes sense, but I've heard various podcast hosts more than once telling stories about how they finally settled on their lists on the drive to the event,or the night before.

I am guessing because they are on the US. My point isn't largely about cheating, but that new players have all the ways to be able to build a legal list prior to a tournament.

About cheating, the only way to stop it would be from actively checking what people are playing, but that's something that doesn't need to happen on small/medium sized tournaments, and large events don't do it either, except if someone calls for it, where it is useful to have a "list check in" proccess to be able to compare what people are flying against what they signed up with, wether you do it the same day of the tournament (you lose time, and it's somewhat stressing to do so depending on the amount of lists) or you do beforehand (which is way more friendly for the TO).

The reason why people don't need to check what you are flying for the most part is ingrained into the proccess. Small/medium sized tournaments most opponents know each other, or atleast know they are flying, anyone who deviates from there who attempts to cheat with list building, will be called out on it very quickly and DQ (not to speak these events to be more familiar), so it's likely you would get banned from events. In large tournaments the list check in serves as a register and as a deterrent, even if you are not actively seeking for potential cheaters.

But i also have to ask, does it occur ? Did we have some cheating revealed in the past years i had gone ? Because as far i know, other than people "skimming" over others people ships on US tournaments to see what they would play, i have not seen any case where it happened. In game cheating is ussually the norm for cheating, not list building. You have to account that if you really want to win a tournament, the most important part is practicing your list against a myriad of opponents and lists, not to change your list to what you think you are going to see in the last minute.

It has the problem that people tend to stress when they have to make the choice beforehand and prefer to take a definitive decission only over the last minute (human nature more than anything else), even if that means making other people waste time. It happens to me aswell, it's kinda irrational tho. I think Stay on The leader is largely dismissing how important it is as a register and a back up to solve any issues that might arise. Kinda like having insurance for your car is useless, except when it's not, even tho in 15 years i had never been stopped by a police and asked for my car papers (yeah, i guess i am lucky in that regard :p).

On 3/31/2017 at 1:33 PM, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

FFG opts to fix via rules adjustment, which just seems really wrong-headed to me. Everything costs points. Being OP in this environment most often means when you take Ship-X you get a f**load more bang for your pts that taking Ship-Y. Adjust the pts to even that out. Making new rules often has ripples outside of Ship-X's OP status.

Will some folks have to adjust their tourney lists because the points no longer work out -Yes! Why is that such a horrible outcome? They adjust their lists based on other kinds of nerfs anyway.

Banning a MTG card makes sense, a ship, not so much.

I really wish FFG would just fix ships by changing their point costs. I'm a casual player: I play maybe 5 times a year. (Not because I don't like the game, but because I have limited time and many other games I can play too). These 20+ page FAQs with dense text really detract from the game. A simple chart with adjusted point costs is so much simpler, and most of the time just as effective. I'm sure there are a few cases where a point cost adjustment doesn't make sense, fine, I can live with a <5 page FAQ. The current situation is insane: I'm not going to read/print a giant FAQ before I play games. I'd just as soon play something else.

The faq is a necessary evil. So that's not going anywhere.

I honestly think the next fix for the jm5000 is to make the Contacted Scout a unique pilot. It let's people still fly multiple jumps but tones it down a bit. People can say that the jump is not broken. But it warps the meta way to much.

20 minutes ago, arkhamssaber said:

The faq is a necessary evil. So that's not going anywhere.

I honestly think the next fix for the jm5000 is to make the Contacted Scout a unique pilot. It let's people still fly multiple jumps but tones it down a bit. People can say that the jump is not broken. But it warps the meta way to much.

Just negating the EPT will do the job

49 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Just negating the EPT will do the job

Maybe. Adding a dot to the card might be simpler than removing an icon.

1 hour ago, arkhamssaber said:

The faq is a necessary evil. So that's not going anywhere.

I honestly think the next fix for the jm5000 is to make the Contacted Scout a unique pilot. It let's people still fly multiple jumps but tones it down a bit. People can say that the jump is not broken. But it warps the meta way to much.

How does the Jumpmaster warp the Meta exactly? The Punishing One is one of 4 large based ships for 1 faction (the others the YV-666, Slave 1 and Lancer-craft) two of which are essential components to most if not all SCUM faction builds in casual and competitive game play; So by their only being miminal choices of course you will see the ship a lot; but when is the Contracted Scout won a major tournament last? since we're speaking of the Meta (and Paratanni does not count) as it uses Dengar and Manaroo whom are both unique and the reason some here want the JMK5000 nerfed, or BANNED, or errated to unique. If FFG were to do that it would be a massive NPE, not only at the casual level but also competitve. Manaroo has been nerfed, R4 nerfed (errated), deadeye gone; yet because it still performs well some want it banned; what about Biggs, or TLTs? both those are also causing NPE for players yet, the push for a banned ship is the JMK5000.

4 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

How does the Jumpmaster warp the Meta exactly? The Punishing One is one of 4 large based ships for 1 faction (the others the YV-666, Slave 1 and Lancer-craft) two of which are essential components to most if not all SCUM faction builds in casual and competitive game play; So by their only being miminal choices of course you will see the ship a lot; but when is the Contracted Scout won a major tournament last? since we're speaking of the Meta (and Paratanni does not count) as it uses Dengar and Manaroo whom are both unique and the reason some here want the JMK5000 nerfed, or BANNED, or errated to unique. If FFG were to do that it would be a massive NPE, not only at the casual level but also competitve. Manaroo has been nerfed, R4 nerfed (errated), deadeye gone; yet because it still performs well some want it banned; what about Biggs, or TLTs? both those are also causing NPE for players yet, the push for a banned ship is the JMK5000.

If you're comparing the four big base ships. The jm5000 is easily the most played. Round 8 of the Hoth Open had 14 jm5000 on the top 8 tables where the 7-0 and 6-1 matchup were. Easily the most represented ship. They obviously can't win the whole thing every time. But I can easily see more and more of them being played.

We also need to realize that we have not had many post nerf events. Judging by what I observed at Hoth. I saw fewer Defenders, no Dengeroo and very few Palpatine so. But I still saw Paratinni but some had the scout over manaroo.

13 minutes ago, arkhamssaber said:

If you're comparing the four big base ships. The jm5000 is easily the most played. Round 8 of the Hoth Open had 14 jm5000 on the top 8 tables where the 7-0 and 6-1 matchup were. Easily the most represented ship. They obviously can't win the whole thing every time. But I can easily see more and more of them being played.

And the Ghost/Biggs is the most played rebel ship let's ban that too, I mean since it carries TLT's and has Biggs (all the time as Kanan's wingman) Being the most played means nothing, the more you see the ship the better prepared and versed in it's abilty and weakness within the list itself; The Jumpmaster is the most used but is also counter-able; making top 8's and 16's is not the same as winning tournament after tournament; Each faction currently has powerful lists, sure the JMK5000 is a staple for scum but so is the Biggs, and Palpatine let's completely ban them also.

I dont think JM5k is the problem, the bigger problem is the Mindlink being more than a 2-of.

Either you do an unwieldy errata where you make the Mindlink unique and declare a 2nd ship to Mindlink to (condition style) , or you remove the focus/stress limit so allowing you to stack multiple stress on the whole list.

Mindlink isn't the problem. Overly cheap overly efficient ships able to use it are. There are plenty of good Mindlink squads that aren't broken, and the mindlink swarm is HUGELY fun to play without being broken, using cheap but not quite so efficient ships like Tansaari Point Vets and Concord Dawn Aces &c. Things where a cheap, swarmable EPT makes them more or less on par, rather than broken. Making it two copies only would kill that archetype entirely and that would be a great shame.

Just like Deadeye wasn't the problem, overly cheap overly effective ships using it were. (It's not like it sees much use any more despite still doing the exact same thing for Gamma Veterans, in particular)

If you keep nerfing the best epts for the Scout, all that will happen is that the next best EPT will become overpowered because you can take it on a Scout.

Just nerf the frakking Scout.

Kill the EPT, make it unique, or increase its cost (and Manaroo's as well). Or hell, do all 3.

I'll also point out that most of the jumpamsters lately have been manaroo, who couldn't care less if you make the contracted scout unique or remove it's EPT. Mindlinked jump masters are good, but hardly gamebreaking like the deadeye version was. The CS doesn't need any more nerfs unless/until it warps the meta again. Which it hasn't been lately.

6 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

How does the Jumpmaster warp the Meta exactly? The Punishing One is one of 4 large based ships for 1 faction (the others the YV-666, Slave 1 and Lancer-craft) two of which are essential components to most if not all SCUM faction builds in casual and competitive game play; So by their only being miminal choices of course you will see the ship a lot; but when is the Contracted Scout won a major tournament last? since we're speaking of the Meta (and Paratanni does not count) as it uses Dengar and Manaroo whom are both unique and the reason some here want the JMK5000 nerfed, or BANNED, or errated to unique. If FFG were to do that it would be a massive NPE, not only at the casual level but also competitve. Manaroo has been nerfed, R4 nerfed (errated), deadeye gone; yet because it still performs well some want it banned; what about Biggs, or TLTs? both those are also causing NPE for players yet, the push for a banned ship is the JMK5000.

The Italian Regionals, 71 players - 2 x Contracted Scouts, Fenn Rau. One week ago. Tatooine Open, all 3 of the top 8 Scum had Contracted Scout. It shows up currently as the #2 in List Juggler, right behind (post-nerf) Manaroo. Biggs and Miranda are still strong. Seeing Biggs there does not fill me with hope for a T65 buff. I would be perfectly happy to change his effect to once per round and giving him an EPT. I am sick and tired of having to take him, or to deal with him.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

I'll also point out that most of the jumpamsters lately have been manaroo, who couldn't care less if you make the contracted scout unique or remove it's EPT. Mindlinked jump masters are good, but hardly gamebreaking like the deadeye version was. The CS doesn't need any more nerfs unless/until it warps the meta again. Which it hasn't been lately.

If you've missed it, the CS are coming back. Triple Attani-Mindlinked torpedo scouts are right up among the new hotness.

7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

If you've missed it, the CS are coming back. Triple Attani-Mindlinked torpedo scouts are right up among the new hotness.

Fenntastic Beasts are also popular, and surprisingly people are still making Parattanni work. Boba crew is quite common with the scouts, especially U-Boats.

It's not surprising Paratanni still works. That list was BROKEN good - results 10-15% better than any other squad that has ever existed in the game.

A nerf only knocks it down into Tier I, when previously it sat above Tier I.

i think that previously to ban, FFG would limit the number of cards, like turning some upgrades to be Unique Upgrades. TLT should be a good candidate, and probably Autothrusters.

just dont give 3 skill pilots EPTs problem solved...

3 minutes ago, Swedge said:

just dont give 3 skill pilots EPTs problem solved...

This is something to me that seems glaringly obvious when designing a game. 3/9 is not elite in any way.

Sadly FFG still haven't figured this out.

*shrug* giving a PS3 pilot an EPT is fine.

Giving a PS3 pilot costing 25 points with 5 hull and 4 shields, a large base with barrel roll, and the best dial in the freaking game.

Is not.

The Scout being horribly undercosted is the problem, not the concept of a PS3 EPT.

(Discussion about the meaning of PS aside - PS isn't an objective measure of skill, it's more a measure of reaction time and speed of thought. I'd have no objection to a PS1 EPT or a PS9 no ept, personally.)

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

PS isn't an objective measure of skill

So "pilot skill" is not about a pilot's skill?

Ok. lol