Red pen nerf.

19 minutes ago, Evenflow30 said:

Looks like you're getting a lot of flak here Darth, but I don't think you're proposal is out of line (though I'm not a fan of outright banning). To me, the "problem" lies on the contracted scout. I think Tel is priced just right and with recent nerfs (r1 for Manaroo and Zuckuss crew nerf for Dengar) the other two named pilots are great still but reasonable to deal with in both tournament and casual play. They won't do this, but raising scouts up a few points, maybe to 27 like Manaroo, would help. Even after the deadeye/r4 agro nerf I still see alot of triple scouts here in Milwaukee that do great(although the people playing them could definitely be a big factor too).

making the scout the same price as manaroo (without changing cost not he other pilots) would be absolutely asinine. "Oh look, I can get a PS and ability for free"

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

Get ready for the most replies of any topic you have ever started Meanie!

People talk about how much they hate nerf threads, but they never fail to get the most replies.

Nerfing is for wimps. I'm going straight for the BAN!!

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

The entire JM5K chassis is just too cheap. There is no easy fix. Removing the EPT from the scout would put Manaroo back into mindlink lists and triple scouts would probably still be a strong squad. Dengar is still potentially a really, really strong pilot if someone wants to get creative with builds. Tel Trevura could be a friggin monster if the other three pilots weren't around.

But! I don't think a ban is the way to go. There are not enough ships in the game to justify a ban... yet. I would much rather see FFG bite the bullet and increase the cost across the board for the JM5K. Unlikely? Sadly, yes. But it's the only real solution. Manaroo could probably get range 1-2 and all ships go up in points. And/or put the agromech slot on the title.

(Off topic, but why doesn't FFG give different pilots different upgrade slots or actions? Wasted design opportunities. Can just give Han Solo the evade action but not Chewie, no reason it has to be on the title. Only have the agromech slot on Dengar's card. Yes, the players would actually have to read on occasion but we'd survive.)

Clearly, there is no easy fix. 3 tries have failed to unseat it as the #1 ship. And I dare say there are near enough ships to lose JUST ONE of them. Next wave Scum gets 2 vs. 1 and 1.

22 minutes ago, Evenflow30 said:

Looks like you're getting a lot of flak here Darth, but I don't think you're proposal is out of line (though I'm not a fan of outright banning). To me, the "problem" lies on the contracted scout. I think Tel is priced just right and with recent nerfs (r1 for Manaroo and Zuckuss crew nerf for Dengar) the other two named pilots are great still but reasonable to deal with in both tournament and casual play. They won't do this, but raising scouts up a few points, maybe to 27 like Manaroo, would help. Even after the deadeye/r4 agro nerf I still see alot of triple scouts here in Milwaukee that do great(although the people playing them could definitely be a big factor too).

Well, then maybe JM5K2.0 is the answer. Everyone keeps the model and is issued an entirely new set of cardboard.

In any event, Copernicus had to deal with the Inquisition. Doesn't mean he was wrong. And, none of you are anywhere near me with a hot poker, so it's good.

I don't really see the problem with the Jumpmaster. It's like saying Biggs is OP because he's been in two System Open winning lists (beating jumps on the way).

4 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

I don't really see the problem with the Jumpmaster. It's like saying Biggs is OP because he's been in two System Open winning lists (beating jumps on the way).

And yet there are threads that have said that the X-Wing isn't getting any love because any buff to the chassis would make Biggs OP.

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

making the scout the same price as manaroo (without changing cost not he other pilots) would be absolutely asinine. "Oh look, I can get a PS and ability for free"

Well, if you were looking for an alpha strike with torps you are still going with scouts as Manaroo is unique. I wouldn't raise Dengar or Tel as they almost always use the title and I think raising them even a little prices them out of competitiveness. I wouldn't be against raising Manaroo a point though. What do you think VanderLegion? Would you propose a different fix or do you think the Jumpmaster is fine as is?

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

And yet there are threads that have said that the X-Wing isn't getting any love because any buff to the chassis would make Biggs OP.

That is exactly my point. He's been around since Wave 1, and Jumps only since Wave 9. Yet all I see is complaining about jumpmasters.

8 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

I don't really see the problem with the Jumpmaster. It's like saying Biggs is OP because he's been in two System Open winning lists (beating jumps on the way).

5 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

That is exactly my point, yet he's been around since Wave 1, and Jumps only since Wave 9. Yet all I see is complaining about jumpmasters.

So, the complaints are irrelevant?

3 minutes ago, Evenflow30 said:

Well, if you were looking for an alpha strike with torps you are still going with scouts as Manaroo is unique. I wouldn't raise Dengar or Tel as they almost always use the title and I think raising them even a little prices them out of competitiveness. I wouldn't be against raising Manaroo a point though. What do you think VanderLegion? Would you propose a different fix or do you think the Jumpmaster is fine as is?

That's why the JM5K should go up 2 points, and the title should come down 1 or 2 points. (And the Jankymech slot should be moved to the title.)

This was the way it should have been done all along.

Then reverse the Deadeye nerf and reverse (or at least lessen) the Manaroo nerf.

10 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

I don't really see the problem with the Jumpmaster. It's like saying Biggs is OP because he's been in two System Open winning lists (beating jumps on the way).

Wait... are you saying the Jumpmaster can lose a match or two? Interesting other builds are competitive and beating them yet some want to ban them.

Biggs is a cute and reliable accessory that works well and is good for his points

no problem

The entire JM5K expansion is a burning pile of playtesting OP crap that has caused countless problems and is flawed at its core.

I can't imagine why both could be popular but only one complained about

Just now, Cgriffith said:

Wait... are you saying the Jumpmaster can lose a match or two? Interesting other builds are competitive and beating them yet some want to ban them.

The jumpmaster can lose in many matchups. The meta is more diverse than ever with this latest FAQ.

2 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

The jumpmaster can lose in many matchups. The meta is more diverse than ever with this latest FAQ.

I completely agree. The meta is very diverse even with all the nerf/ban threads which just show that any build on any given day, in the right persons controls can win any tournament

9 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

The jumpmaster can lose in many matchups. The meta is more diverse than ever with this latest FAQ.

This is true. I'm interested to see in the near future here if stress builds make a comeback now that Zuckuss crew has been made weaker to stress on the ship carrying it. I play scum myself and don't use mindlink all that often, but it's a huge staple in alot of scum builds. It would be interesting to see if stress builds return what effect it would have on Scum list building.

12 minutes ago, Sarcon said:

The jumpmaster can lose in many matchups. The meta is more diverse than ever with this latest FAQ.

With one toilet seat to rule them all. . .

3 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

But that doesn't really matter for purely casual play. For tournament play, players really should be tuned into the FAQ document, anyway.

Changing the cost of the JumpBastard was always the best way to go. FFG simply always chooses the easiest way to go, rather than the best ... and they have no memory, so if the "easiest" way is also 27 different changes to different cards, but stretched out over months, it still counts as "easiest" to FFG.

I agree to some extent, but it still seems to be FFG's position on the matter. And I certainly understand that point of view; they want to keep the barrier to entry into the competitive scene low. Granted, if you were going to compete in Regionals or something, you should really have read through the FAQ; but what if you just want to compete in your local store's game night? I can pretty easily picture a scenario where someone plays the game with their friends for a few months and then decides to go to game night, shows up with an illegal list by accident, and goes "well, I guess I can't play tonight, then." Errata fixes aren't great, but at least your list is still legal. Bans and point changes are the best fix from a balance perspective, but they're pretty bad in terms of playability.

Don't ban it. Fix it.

Knock the EPT slot off the scout.

That probably does the trick after the manaroo and zuckus fixes.

TLDR...end p1. will catch up sometime.

Since this seemed to be a popular idea on how to nerf Deadeye maybe the Jumpmaster itself should be a unique ship? Now you can still fly anyone you like but you can ONLY fly one so you never need to worry about a triple Jumpmaster build again.

Only mild sarcasm here but limiting it to a one of seems better than thinking it needs to be removed entirely. Considering the ideas some are throwing around that "somethings" should be limited to no more than two per squadron (which I do think is rather crazy) the idea of making an entire class of ship unique isn't that far off. Of course it will upset everyone who purchased three of the things but that would still be much better than making them useless by banning the entire ship class or nerfing them down to the point that they'd never get used anyway.

18 minutes ago, StevenO said:

TLDR...end p1. will catch up sometime.

Since this seemed to be a popular idea on how to nerf Deadeye maybe the Jumpmaster itself should be a unique ship? Now you can still fly anyone you like but you can ONLY fly one so you never need to worry about a triple Jumpmaster build again.

Only mild sarcasm here but limiting it to a one of seems better than thinking it needs to be removed entirely. Considering the ideas some are throwing around that "somethings" should be limited to no more than two per squadron (which I do think is rather crazy) the idea of making an entire class of ship unique isn't that far off. Of course it will upset everyone who purchased three of the things but that would still be much better than making them useless by banning the entire ship class or nerfing them down to the point that they'd never get used anyway.

Triple jumpmaster is strong now, but hardly gamebreaking anymore. And it pisses off anyone that bought more than one jump master.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

Triple jumpmaster is strong now, but hardly gamebreaking anymore. And it pisses off anyone that bought more than one jump master.

That may all be but if you consider that the thread heading is suggesting it would seem to be a far less evil. I even mentioned how it would upset anyone who purchased multiples but I'd think banning the ship would be even worse for them as there would be no market for them at all.

8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Which is a little bit my point. Continually designing around a single outlier design is more likely to warp the game than fix it.

If there is a stone in your shoe, take it out. Don't add 3 socks and a bandage.

Except for in this case many many many people paid good money for that rock in your shoe.

4 hours ago, StevenO said:

TLDR...end p1. will catch up sometime.

Since this seemed to be a popular idea on how to nerf Deadeye maybe the Jumpmaster itself should be a unique ship? Now you can still fly anyone you like but you can ONLY fly one so you never need to worry about a triple Jumpmaster build again.

Only mild sarcasm here but limiting it to a one of seems better than thinking it needs to be removed entirely. Considering the ideas some are throwing around that "somethings" should be limited to no more than two per squadron (which I do think is rather crazy) the idea of making an entire class of ship unique isn't that far off. Of course it will upset everyone who purchased three of the things but that would still be much better than making them useless by banning the entire ship class or nerfing them down to the point that they'd never get used anyway.

Making the ship unique would be absolutely unfair, horrible marketing and might turnoff enough people that FFG would notice. I don't fly them (I'm a Rebel player), I've flown against many of them (won and lost my share) but some of the ideas proposed are unbelievably not viable. You cannot make it unique (unless everyone who has multiples will be allowed to get refunds), you can't ban it just because it's "most used", they have balanced the ship with nerfs to R4 (timing), Manaroo's (range), and Deadeye. Contracted Scout is a 2 attack PWT after the torps are gone not to scary. Next we will see threads to nerf Biggs, and TLTs ... oh wait their here already. The only thing wrong is there still the number one used ship, not the best, not the one winning everything anymore, just the most used. That doesn't mean nerf or ban.

About refunds... I smile when people say "if you change xxx I demand a refund". Many of as come from minis wargaming. It was common to simply see your favourite unit not nerfed...simply not present in the new Codex or Army book.

Rules evolve and improve and adapt. If someday FFG gives Turrets R3 range bonus and people start claiming a refund... I will laught.

Strange laught. Imagine one overweight Predator... Jojojo.

I had assumed Meanie was writing this where it was April 1st in his timezone. ?

Edward

I for one would not look forward to the forum shitstorm that would follow a ship ban. People will push for bans on everything that bothers them : Biggs, Defenders, K-wings etc.