53 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

The expense would be in hiring developers and paying them to do the work. Those of us who maintain web/mobile builders are doing it for free in our spare time because we love the game. Software engineers don't come cheap though when you're hiring someone at a company

Simple, just fire whichever game designer first said "so the jumpmaster..." At a design meeting, and give his payroll spot to a software engineer.

There, just balanced the game!

Just now, Gadgetron said:

Simple, just fire whichever game designer first said "so the jumpmaster..." At a design meeting, and give his payroll spot to a software engineer.

There, just balanced the game!

Similar to what major juggler has said about working for FFG as a math guy, good luck finding a software dev (espeically a mobile one) willing to work for the salary FFG is willing to pay

15 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Similar to what major juggler has said about working for FFG as a math guy, good luck finding a software dev (espeically a mobile one) willing to work for the salary FFG is willing to pay

Somebody did the (pretty decent and regularly updated) dice app.

8 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Points cost adjustments can't really solve everything but they'd be a very useful tool - they help you to incentivise/disincentivise different things without changing what they are. Some things are the right effect at the wrong cost. Some things are the wrong effect at the right cost. Some things are just the wrong effect at any cost.

What is an example of a ship with the right cost while having the wrong effect?

2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Similar to what major juggler has said about working for FFG as a math guy, good luck finding a software dev (espeically a mobile one) willing to work for the salary FFG is willing to pay

Me?

23 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

That, and it’s hard to sell an all-inclusive in the box requirement when you don’t include a Smartphone for people who don’t own one.

Are there people who don't own a smartphone?

4 minutes ago, Odanan said:

Me?

Are you a software dev?

2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Somebody did the (pretty decent and regularly updated) dice app.

They did do the dice app, I'll give you that. Though I wouldn't say regularly updated when the last update was may 2016. They do also have the descent app though.

1 minute ago, Odanan said:

Are there people who don't own a smartphone?

There actually are (though not many I suspect)

Just now, Odanan said:

Are there people who don't own a smartphone?

::hand up::

Unless, of course, you are dismissing people like me as not people , and instead, some form of technologically impaired troglodyte .

Because, believe it or not, that has happened.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

Are you a software dev?

I'm graduated in computer science, but actualy worked as business analyst.

Edit: but always wanted to be a videogame developer. Search in Google for Battlefield Vietnam Arsenal and Making History Deadlock: my babies. Curiously, I'm about to release my first own game, which is not a videogame, but a boardgame.

As a thought exercise, would simply removing the Jumpmaster right now make the game better?

IMO, unless it's accompanied by significant other changes, I think it would bring a new all-time low in the game. We've had the competitive side dominated by 2 factions before, but never by only one. Nowadays, the Imperials are in the gutter, and the overwhelming majority of Scum lists include at least 1 Jumpmaster. If you just take it out, what's left to challenge the Rebels?

11 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Similar to what major juggler has said about working for FFG as a math guy, good luck finding a software dev (espeically a mobile one) willing to work for the salary FFG is willing to pay

They don't need any Squad Builder app or developer or anything. They could come, in the next FAQ with this paragraph:

"Squad point costs printed on cards apply to the casual and epic modes. For tournament modes, ignore all printed squad point costs. Instead, participants and Tournament Organizers must use these squad point costs:"
Followed by a page or two with every single card name followed by a number.

• No need of software developer.
• No need of extra licenses from Disney for having an electronic product.
• No need to have running costs to keep it up-to-date. It is updated with every FAQ release.
• No need to deal with multiple platforms and technologies (some people have iOS, some have Android, some have neither, some have only Web, some don't want to have to depend on an electronic device).
• Community squad builders would implement the new card costs overnight in their software at zero cost for FFG.
• Everyone is subject to the latest FAQ for tournament play, so nobody can pretend they didn't know cards had different costs than printed.
• The development team can finally react to poor playtesting by altering the costs several times per year if needed. They can finally use the main balancing factor (cost) for restoring balance, rather than altering printed card text or rules one and a half year after it was needed first.

What is wrong with this solution?

5 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

They don't need any Squad Builder app or developer or anything. They could come, in the next FAQ with this paragraph:

"Squad point costs printed on cards apply to the casual and epic modes. For tournament modes, ignore all printed squad point costs. Instead, participants and Tournament Organizers must use these squad point costs:"
Followed by a page or two with every single card name followed by a number.

• No need of software developer.
• No need of extra licenses from Disney for having an electronic product.
• No need to have running costs to keep it up-to-date. It is updated with every FAQ release.
• No need to deal with multiple platforms and technologies (some people have iOS, some have Android, some have neither, some have only Web, some don't want to have to depend on an electronic device).
• Community squad builders would implement the new card costs overnight in their software at zero cost for FFG.
• Everyone is subject to the latest FAQ for tournament play, so nobody can pretend they didn't know cards had different costs than printed.
• The development team can finally react to poor playtesting by altering the costs several times per year if needed. They can finally use the main balancing factor (cost) for restoring balance, rather than altering printed card text or rules one and a half year after it was needed first.

What is wrong with this solution?

Only that it's not applied to casual play as well.

Why NOT balance the whole game, instead of just the competitive game?

5 hours ago, LordBlades said:

As a thought exercise, would simply removing the Jumpmaster right now make the game better?

IMO, unless it's accompanied by significant other changes, I think it would bring a new all-time low in the game. We've had the competitive side dominated by 2 factions before, but never by only one. Nowadays, the Imperials are in the gutter, and the overwhelming majority of Scum lists include at least 1 Jumpmaster. If you just take it out, what's left to challenge the Rebels?

Agree 100%. Like when the US were arming the Taliban to fight the Soviets, the Jumpmasters are the good guys at the moment.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Only that it's not applied to casual play as well.

Why NOT balance the whole game, instead of just the competitive game?

I added that just in case there came someone yelling that they want a totally self contained analog game with printed costs. I mean, you could also print the cost pages and it would be analog, right?

13 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Somebody did the (pretty decent and regularly updated) dice app.

Which is a freelancer job, trivial to do, nothing which requires hiring someone permanently.

21 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

On the points adjustments piece... I'm probably more interested in the cards that get cost reductions than those you'd increase.

Increasing cost just takes away things that you don't like, reducing cost is your chance to say 'here, do this instead and life will be better'.

If done correctly I would hope that points increase would only increase the cost of things such that in certain builds you have to make a meaningful choice of one upgrade over the other (which is really what makes squad building interesting anyway)-- as opposed to straight up getting rid of a certain upgrade with a ridiculously high points threshold.

That being said I would like to see which things had points decreases as well and what effect they had if any.

On 10/6/2017 at 6:21 AM, VanderLegion said:

Are you a software dev?

They did do the dice app, I'll give you that. Though I wouldn't say regularly updated when the last update was may 2016. They do also have the descent app though.

There actually are (though not many I suspect)

No, i mean, everyone has the smartphone and I can give the evidence about it, the downloads applications here is the most popular application. there are lots of searches about snapchat for pc in google. you can check

On 10/5/2017 at 2:43 PM, Darth Nadir said:

Now I haven't taken the time to read every post added to this thread, so there is a possibility that someone may have already touched on what I want to talk about this morning, but here it goes anyway. I was pretty quick to jump on the "Let's ban the JM5K" bandwagon, but after watching The World Championship match a second time, I'm now not quite as sure that the ship itself is the biggest offender here. I've read complaints about the turrets, but I didn't see the turrets play a huge part in the match. People have also complained about Dengar, but I didn't feel that he came into play that often, and when he did it probably wouldn't have been insurmountable if it wasn't for Expertise.

Expertise, now this particular upgrade is where I see the real issue. Expertise, especially when coupled with Guidance Chips, made those initial plasma torpedo volleys just ridiculously powerful. Throw in Mindlink, and the ability to stack focus tokens that will really never be used for anything but defence, and you shouldn't have much of a problem sluffing off anything you're opponent can at throw you.

When I look at the lists most people played in that tournament, most people seem to favor upgrades with the lowest possible cost, and rightly so, but I think we're going to start seeing a lot more of Expertise. When my son and I started playing this game we both fell in love with Push the Limit, but why take that upgrade for 3 points and get a stress token when I can take expertise, still take a focus token for defence with my action, and have perma-focus for every attack I make. Want proof that expertise is going to be a serious issue in the future... I decided to go on eBay last night and see how much a copy of this card would cost. There are several online retailers with pages on that website dedicated to selling upgrade cards for this game. Not a single copy of Expertise was available. Every page I visited was sold out.

So in closing I think the real issue with the JM5K is the fact that it allows you to take pretty much every add-on that's broken in this game. Let's review. 360 degree attack radius, because maneuvering is overrated. Not happy with only two or three attack dice, who cares, projectiles should be your calling card anyway. You want extra attacks, done. You want to be able to survive death, no problem. Focus tokens, lol, you got those for days. And finally, don't let those pesky laws of probability get you down because we have an answer for that too... Expertise.

I've only been at this game for a couple of weeks, and it surprises me that there are so many people that don't feel this is an issue. I have fallen completely in love with this game and I'm already worried that my initial investment, which was serious, is going to end up being money not so well spent. Alarm bells are ringing.

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "

To be honest, I think it's the fact that you're only a couple of weeks in that's making you think Expertise is the problem. Some points to think about:

1. You say things like "with expertise, your torp volleys are super powerful, THROW IN MINDLINK and stack tokens for nothing but defense"..... I think you're raging at different things and conflating stuff. You can't use both expertise and mindlink, they take up the same EPT slot. I don't know where this avalanche of focus tokens PLUS expertise is coming from. I can assure you the dominant triple jumpmaster lists aren't coming anywhere near expertise.

2. 4 points is HUGE for an upgrade. Every other EPT upgrade at that point cost has fallen short. It's a massive amount to pay for what usually amount to a single focus token that can't even be used on defence. If you think the card is such a problem, I'm sure a bit more experience will tell you how to valuable extra actions are or aren't. And heck, you might not even ROLL a focus token on attack. The only real value with expertise comes when a ship can attack multiple times in a round - Dengar pilot, Quickdraw, maybe Gunner crew, maybe Corran Horn. I think you'll be very hard pressed to find expertise used outside of ships that get to attack twice.

3. On top of the huge cost, stress shuts it down. That limits your dial, much like push the limit. But unlike push the limit, its highly inflexible. You can't double reposition with it, for example. Compare it to Dengar crew as well. They're both immune to bumping, Dengar crew ISN'T vulnerable to stress, the double rerolls are basically as good as the focus, and the crew upgrade slot is less important, since the EPT slot is the best one in the game by far. Further, if you've ever run up against a list that deals stress, you'll realise how big that drawback can be. Playing against Asajj Ventress? May as well be playing a 96 point list.

4. Your eBay conspiracy is also a little misplaced. You want to know why Expertise is unavailable to buy? There's no shadow cabal of xwing pros buying up the supply for when the card becomes huge. It's because the card is important but featured in an expansion that isn't very popular and has a pretty underwhelming ship - the U-wing. People just aren't that keen to drop big ship money for a single useful upgrade, hence it is scarce on the secondary market.

Anyways, I'm not trying to be a total neg, and perhaps your own experience is that Expertise is dominating your home games, but I can assure you that there are excellent ways to fight it, and to be honest its only strong in pretty specific circumstances. I'm sure you'll start figuring out ways to counter play against it.

On 10/5/2017 at 3:13 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

Somebody did the (pretty decent and regularly updated) dice app.

Well, there was an analysis that found the Dice App to be Crit and Evade heavy compared to expected results, however don't know if that was patched or not.

1 hour ago, Darth Rubi said:

To be honest, I think it's the fact that you're only a couple of weeks in that's making you think Expertise is the problem. Some points to think about:

1. You say things like "with expertise, your torp volleys are super powerful, THROW IN MINDLINK and stack tokens for nothing but defense"..... I think you're raging at different things and conflating stuff. You can't use both expertise and mindlink, they take up the same EPT slot. I don't know where this avalanche of focus tokens PLUS expertise is coming from. I can assure you the dominant triple jumpmaster lists aren't coming anywhere near expertise.

2. 4 points is HUGE for an upgrade. Every other EPT upgrade at that point cost has fallen short. It's a massive amount to pay for what usually amount to a single focus token that can't even be used on defence. If you think the card is such a problem, I'm sure a bit more experience will tell you how to valuable extra actions are or aren't. And heck, you might not even ROLL a focus token on attack. The only real value with expertise comes when a ship can attack multiple times in a round - Dengar pilot, Quickdraw, maybe Gunner crew, maybe Corran Horn. I think you'll be very hard pressed to find expertise used outside of ships that get to attack twice.

3. On top of the huge cost, stress shuts it down. That limits your dial, much like push the limit. But unlike push the limit, its highly inflexible. You can't double reposition with it, for example. Compare it to Dengar crew as well. They're both immune to bumping, Dengar crew ISN'T vulnerable to stress, the double rerolls are basically as good as the focus, and the crew upgrade slot is less important, since the EPT slot is the best one in the game by far. Further, if you've ever run up against a list that deals stress, you'll realise how big that drawback can be. Playing against Asajj Ventress? May as well be playing a 96 point list.

4. Your eBay conspiracy is also a little misplaced. You want to know why Expertise is unavailable to buy? There's no shadow cabal of xwing pros buying up the supply for when the card becomes huge. It's because the card is important but featured in an expansion that isn't very popular and has a pretty underwhelming ship - the U-wing. People just aren't that keen to drop big ship money for a single useful upgrade, hence it is scarce on the secondary market.

Anyways, I'm not trying to be a total neg, and perhaps your own experience is that Expertise is dominating your home games, but I can assure you that there are excellent ways to fight it, and to be honest its only strong in pretty specific circumstances. I'm sure you'll start figuring out ways to counter play against it.

Ok.. couple things.. for starters, you are absolutely right about Mindlink. I had an erp deep moment. It was alot of information to process. Although most of the teams that played triple Jumpmasters used Mindlink, the world champion did not. He chose Expertise instead. That being said, if you stick to green maneuvers with that list, you still get free target locks from K4, and can still take a focus token as your action. A focus that you can still save for defense thanks to Expertise. Plus, If you're sticking to green maneuvers stress doesn't even come into play.

Now I don't give Jabba's sweaty elbow what triple Jumpmasters are running. Triple Jumpmasters didn't win the tournament. So you really have to look at the list that won and ask yourself what was different. I'm sure it's partly that he was a better player, but I also think it had a lot to do with what he ran. K4, Expertise, and Guidance Chips make those torpedoes nasty, and you're staring down the business end of 4 of them. Oh.. and if you take a shot in response, your opponent is focused up, and you get lit up a second time. Again with Expertise making sure you get your hits.

Hey, I could be wrong though.

" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "

On 10/6/2017 at 4:50 AM, thespaceinvader said:

Only that it's not applied to casual play as well.

Why NOT balance the whole game, instead of just the competitive game?

Just to play devil's advocate, because casual play doesn't generate these problems as often.

In my world, Biggs ain't a problem, Palpatine never was a problem, and we don't fly the JM5K. We come to the table to have fun, win or lose, so long as losing doesn't mean wholesale slaughter. Anything that is OP is not going to be used as much, because Friends don't let friends fly OP.

In a true casual environ, no one actually wants to be That Guy : with WAACo DB who only brings this wave's hotness to the kitchen table so he can go home and brag to his dog* about crushing all his friends at XWM again. So OP is countered by the social contract to have Fun For All.

*Because only a dog would put up with That Guy.

26 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Just to play devil's advocate, because casual play doesn't generate these problems as often.

In my world, Biggs ain't a problem, Palpatine never was a problem, and we don't fly the JM5K. We come to the table to have fun, win or lose, so long as losing doesn't mean wholesale slaughter. Anything that is OP is not going to be used as much, because Friends don't let friends fly OP.

In a true casual environ, no one actually wants to be That Guy : with WAACo DB who only brings this wave's hotness to the kitchen table so he can go home and brag to his dog* about crushing all his friends at XWM again. So OP is countered by the social contract to have Fun For All.

*Because only a dog would put up with That Guy.

With a more balanced game you wouldn't need the list of things to be as long (ideally you wouldn't have it at all, but it's an imperfect game designed by imperfect people, so there'll always be something). So it is still in your interest to have the overall game balanced, rather than just competitive play.

52 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

So it is still in your interest to have the overall game balanced, rather than just competitive play.

I only need a game that is not horribly imbalanced. The social contract to have fun smooths out the dimples.

The problem, IMHO, with the nerf/buff/fix crowd is they expect XWM to look like this:

A bare minimum of well groomed and deadly ships that can bump/set/spike and against a couple of other ships that are just as slick so that everything is perfectly balanced.

The reality is that XWM is this:

A bunch of ships that are at all power levels, not balanced against one another, but for the most part can be put together in relative evenness for a fun afternoon of entertainment.

Now, you can play the professional way, but don't ***** the game is broken because of the 20 ships on hand only 2 play "the best." Get a beer, put on your best pink v-ball jeans, and have fun. Or, get a corporate sponsor, only use steroidal-OP hotness, and leave the rest of the game to be what it is--beneath your razor-edge of perfection.

Perhaps a small change that "After executing a manueuver" freebies get the X7 treatment? No overlapping ships/obstacles if you want your free target lock/regen/ability to drop a bomb with genius

Scum takes a hit with Nym and Jumpmasters (most in my experience seem to use K4) Rebels get a small hit in R2D2 (not the current scary list but it is a favorite and might make other astromechs more attractive)

Cad Bane and Sabine probably could use minor tweaks so they only affect bombs dropped by the ships they are on (this probably affect Scum more)