1 minute ago, Cgriffith said:

I agree I was just offering other possiblities, even if they're not plausible at a competitve level.

Yeah, the K-Wings were merely a look at a similarly costed PWT. The Wild Space Fringer is really the better comparison.

1 minute ago, LordBlades said:

You are trying to shoehorn the warden into a role it's just not good at.

Warden, plasma torps, em, chips: 28 points

Gold, plasma torps, em, chips, ABT: 25 points

You're paying 3 extra points to get a strictly worse ordnance platform (due to the dial) only for the off chance you will get to shoot somebody out of arc at range 2-3 and not have your 2 dice attack negated by greens.

I don't have ABTs and I wouldn't take them. Round these parts, people heard tell of sumthin' called the Ghost.

13 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

I don't have ABTs and I wouldn't take them. Round these parts, people heard tell of sumthin' called the Ghost.

That's your call obviously but as I said you can't really make bad mechanical choices and then complain they're worse than good mechanical choices. They're supposed to, that's why they're bad choices.

Also, in regard to 2 dice turret: according to the ship rankings in the other thread,in top 10 only 3 ships have less than 2 agi (ghost, k-wing and y-wing) this means that a lot of the time your 2 dice turret would be shooting vs 2,3 or 4 greens.

I must say, I am always suprised how fast these threads escalate. I grow tired of reading through thread after thread of arguments and personal attacks between fellow posters. Is it really so hard to have a friendly conversation with somebody on the Internet about plastic spaceships? Even if you don't agree with the OP, I'd appreciate it if everybody would strive to remain civil while stating their opinions. I must not be the only one who is getting tired of it, I mean just look at how many other regular posters are no longer here.

10 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

That's your call obviously but as I said you can't really make bad mechanical choices and then complain they're worse than good mechanical choices. They're supposed to, that's why they're bad choices.

If we're looking at the "true" cost of a 2 dice PWT, then it is somewhere between the 3-point Dorsal Turret and the (undercosted) 6-point Twin Laser Turret. With an extra shield on a K-Wing, my investment lives just that much longer. With a Y-Wing, I would strongly consider not taking EM because it is less likely to survive to get off a second shot. In that case I might take the ABT.

Ah, I see your edit about the prevalance of 3, 4 dice etc. If I actually want to win in a tournament setting, I take a list which can do reasonably against the usual suspects and offer me serious tools to take on the JM5K (which is almost always in the hands of a certain top Scum player these days). Both the JM5K and the K-Wing offer control over shaping the battlescape. One of the reasons I don't use bombs on the K-Wing is that I go for Thach weaves and blocking.

However a Y-Wing with ABT is going to have a short lifespan, and the Warden's job is to peck damage after its torpedoes are gone. If the opponent chases it, it gives my other ships a chance to recover and regroup.

4 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

If we're looking at the "true" cost of a 2 dice PWT, then it is somewhere between the 3-point Dorsal Turret and the (undercosted) 6-point Twin Laser Turret. With an extra shield on a K-Wing, my investment lives just that much longer. With a Y-Wing, I would strongly consider not taking EM because it is less likely to survive to get off a second shot. In that case I might take the ABT.

However, if you look at the current state of the meta, 2 dice attacks are no longer enough (see also the TIE swarms going extinct). The reason contracted scouts still do stuff with a 2 dice are large base (range 1 is much bigger) and r4 agromech (allowing double modified shots). Even so, at range 1 ABT is likely at least as good as a 2 dice PWT.

Also, based on tournament results, people have done well with bomb k-wings and torp y-wings, but not with torp k-wings. Maybe there's a conclusion to be drawn there ?

Just now, LordBlades said:

However, if you look at the current state of the meta, 2 dice attacks are no longer enough (see also the TIE swarms going extinct). The reason contracted scouts still do stuff with a 2 dice are large base (range 1 is much bigger) and r4 agromech (allowing double modified shots). Even so, at range 1 ABT is likely at least as good as a 2 dice PWT.

Also, based on tournament results, people have done well with bomb k-wings and torp y-wings, but not with torp k-wings. Maybe there's a conclusion to be drawn there ?

The conclusion is that folks take Homing Missiles and TLT on their K-Wings, which leads to a different list design philosophy. If the JM5K had Missile and Torp slots it might have been even more interesting. Anyway, it's late. Thanks for the discussion.

Just now, Lampyridae said:

The conclusion is that folks take Homing Missiles and TLT on their K-Wings, which leads to a different list design philosophy. If the JM5K had Missile and Torp slots it might have been even more interesting. Anyway, it's late. Thanks for the discussion.

Same before starting this back-and-forth with you I hadn't actually realized y-wings are decent torp carriers. Until today I only took them into consideration for list building as TLT platforms.

.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Suit yourself.

Point, missing it. Ah well.

50 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Point, missing it. Ah well.

The feeling is mutual.

3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The feeling is mutual.

I get your point. It's just inconsistent.

6 hours ago, LordBlades said:

I think one of the reasons FFG is reluctant to do this is because it creates some difficult situations for TOs.

For example let's say the increase the cost of contracted scouts. What should a TO do when somebody shows up with 4 naked scouts ? (legal with the printed cost, illegal with the new cost)

At a tournament, players are required to be aware of any and all FAQ changes. TO's should uphold the current rules over the printed ones.

4 hours ago, Lampyridae said:

Frankly, I can't think of a nerf hard enough for the Toilet Seat.

Increase cost to 101 points. That will ALWAYS be hard enough.

42 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I get your point. It's just inconsistent.

Silver Lining: If FFG lurks here at all, this thread will demonstrate that banning is a very bad idea for XWM consumer happiness.

9 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

At a tournament, players are required to be aware of any and all FAQ changes. TO's should uphold the current rules over the printed ones.

Agreed completely, but this still doesn't answer the question:what do you do if a player still shows up not knowing this particular FAQ entry ? Disqualify him? If yes, then it would only be fair to disqualify any other player that, during the course of a tournament, demonstrates he doesn't know any other FAQ entry, no?

16 hours ago, Hexdot said:

About refunds... I smile when people say "if you change xxx I demand a refund". Many of as come from minis wargaming. It was common to simply see your favourite unit not nerfed...simply not present in the new Codex or Army book.

Rules evolve and improve and adapt. If someday FFG gives Turrets R3 range bonus and people start claiming a refund... I will laught.

Strange laught. Imagine one overweight Predator... Jojojo.

This isn't war hammer, or warmachjne, or any of the other mini war games. Ffg has never yet removed a ship, or even a pilot or upgrade from being playable.

6 hours ago, DreadStar said:

That isn't a problem if you don't want it to be. FFG can make, collaborate or buy a squad builder website, make the changes there and allow for print with a checkmark for legal lists.

Except not everyone, especially new players, uses squad builders. So you can still have the same issue of people showing up to a tournament with a list that's legal by their cards but not the FAQ.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

Listen i would also say that this ship is the only one that tehy really mispriced so far. And they nerfed stuff that was not even a problem to adress the actual mispricing.

But i am still against nerfs in general. Give other ships better options so there are more lists that can deal with the J5K lists. That is probably the way to go.

Also, what's wrong with the forum lately.

Nerf TLT, nerf PWT, Nerf J5K...

Darn all those abbreviations don't need to be made any shorter

They've mispriced a ton of ships. Most are just overcosted instead of potentially undercosted.

Quote

Except not everyone, especially new players, uses squad builders. So you can still have the same issue of people showing up to a tournament with a list that's legal by their cards but not the FAQ.

You are attempting to create a problem when there is none related to what i was answering to. New players can be directed to a squad builder with ease, and they are also required to know the FAQ and tournament rules, there is plenty of room to show them how to properly and llegaly build a squad for a tournament. I can tell you from experience it is absolutely not a problem at all, if you don't believe me, ask infinity players how it works out for them. I am not even advocating for it, but just debunking that the reason they don't do it is because they want to help TOs.

The reason is because they have a few lines they can't or don't want to cross and the last past i bet was already a very hard pill to shallow for them, and it is that they want the cards to continue to work and they will probably only touch them if they don't see a way out using new cards. It's not to ease TOs work, its to stick to their work ethics as they are doing a miniature game based on cards. Malifaux does it aswell, they attempt to change cards as minimum as possible, but sometimes there is no real way out (not saying this is the case, i don't want to talk about balance). The problem is bigger there, because you don't actually play a fixed list during the tournament... and yet it works!

2 minutes ago, DreadStar said:

New players can be directed to a squad builder with ease

Sure. But that's small comfort for the guy that already showed up at the tournament with an illegal list.

57 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Agreed completely, but this still doesn't answer the question:what do you do if a player still shows up not knowing this particular FAQ entry ? Disqualify him? If yes, then it would only be fair to disqualify any other player that, during the course of a tournament, demonstrates he doesn't know any other FAQ entry, no?

If they can change their list in time, you allow them to do that. If they don't, then yeah, you have to block them from entering because their list isn't valid.

For other FAQ entries, there's no reason you can't just inform them that they're doing it wrong.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Sure. But that's small comfort for the guy that already showed up at the tournament with an illegal list.

If, for some reason, they don't have any replacement ships or upgrades, then they'll just have to play with a gimped list because they have to remove something to get themselves back under the point cost.

7 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

If they can change their list in time, you allow them to do that. If they don't, then yeah, you have to block them from entering because their list isn't valid.

In that case what will be stopping people to show up with illegal lists and then rebuild them once they have seen what at least part of the other participants are bringing ?

13 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Sure. But that's small comfort for the guy that already showed up at the tournament with an illegal list.

Well, i don't know how TOs announce their tournaments where you live, but here there are always a list of requisites, in those there is always:

- Read FAQ and Tournament rules.

- Bring a copy of your list / Send an email with the list before hand. You can insert here "using this Squad builder" link.

I am telling you, i had been playing tournaments of miniature games for more than a decade, and i had never experienced your concern. And nowadays it is even easier, since everyone gets on some kind of chatgroup, and digital resources are easilly shared.

It's also possible FFG would rather keep card changes to a minimum due to potential customer satisfaction issues.

The more cards get changed to the point the actual printed text is meaningless, the more will 'must own all cards in the list' feel like a money grab.

51 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

In that case what will be stopping people to show up with illegal lists and then rebuild them once they have seen what at least part of the other participants are bringing ?

What prevents them from doing that now?

Is there some requirement I'm not aware of where you have to hand in your list before even showing up at a tournament?

6 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

What prevents them from doing that now?

Is there some requirement I'm not aware of where you have to hand in your list before even showing up at a tournament?

That's also true. I feel that 'I simply didn't know FFG changed the cost' is an excuse that prompts more understanding than 'I fail at basic math' but yeah, you're right, it can (and does) happen right now too.

10 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

What prevents them from doing that now?

Is there some requirement I'm not aware of where you have to hand in your list before even showing up at a tournament?

The big events we have on the UK have a deadline for list submission a week or two in advance of the tournament.