Can you shuffle your squadron around after placing it?

Can you measure distances to your squadron mid-movement?

What does the TR update mean?

There is no comma after ruler, thus both portions of the sentence are tied together and must be completed as one action. I know it means breaking out a dictionary and getting incredibly literal with the rules, but this discussion is like pulling teeth. I'm almost to the point of doing a flow chart to demonstrate how to move squads and why you actually can't measure engagement while moving the squad.

@Undeadguy , I understand your meaning, but you've got to see there are alternative readings. Placing the squadron in its final position doesn't necessarily have to only include dropping the base where it is. In fact, it kind of implies that there's more to it, otherwise it could have been written as simply "remove the ruler."

And again I ask: if this was the intention, why on earth wouldn't FFG have just said that rather than what they actually said? Removing your hand from the squadron is unrelated to this.

I do see there are alternative readings, and they are wrong. There was a lawsuit over an Oxford comma, where workers claim they get overtime pay. Here is the link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/us/oxford-comma-lawsuit.html?_r=0

FFG likes to be redundant with their rules. They have done it with FAQ like Garm and AG vs GT. The rules explicitly say what to do in both cases, but it still has an FAQ.

The big thing I see for this addition is saying squads can use the range side instead of the squadron movement. Which is important for Rhymer and staying outside of close range. The ruler is double sided, so it's very easy to rotate, while touching the base, to check ranges.

Just because 9/10 people will measure their speed, move the squad, and then check engagement and move slightly around does not make those players correct. The RRG tell you what to do, and this new rule is adding on to that.

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The issue now is that at the beginning of step two with the new tournament ruling document you can then move the ruler anywhere on the table.

@thecolourred

If the new TR rule overrides the RRG there is entirely the possibility that you can now move the range ruler during the squad movement. I don't know which one takes precedence.

But that also runs into the problem of wanting to move in a different direction and not knowing where you started. You picked the tool to measure engagement, when it should have been in place to know where you were. And the rules also continue to say you can't use any other tools or markers since that breaks the 2 tool rule.

In my opinion, this new ruling adds nothing to the anti-shuffle argument than what already existed previously before the ruling. IN fact, it actually adds more obstacles to the anti-shuffle argument in that you now have to explain why FFG said you can measure range while moving a squadron.

I think Biggs really jumped the gun naming that Topic the way he did. It got everybody started looking at the rule in a complete wrong context. At best the rule allows shuffling. At worst, it says nothing about it.

All we wanted was a ruling on RLB and Snipe.

All we got was this stupid squadron movement rule.

8 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I do see there are alternative readings, and they are wrong. There was a lawsuit over an Oxford comma, where workers claim they get overtime pay. Here is the link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/us/oxford-comma-lawsuit.html?_r=0

That's great, but this has nothing to do with the Oxford comma. Even under Oxford, this isn't a scenario where you'd use a comma, regardless of the intended meaning.

Again, though: removing your hand from the squadron has no bearing on the finality of removing the ruler. You can do the one without doing the other. Thought experiment:

If it is true that the squadron must be placed immediately and finally upon removing the ruler, it doesn't matter if I leave my fingers on the squadron after removing the ruler. The rule clarification would have been better and more intuitively written as:

"Once a player removes the ruler from the table after placing a squadron in a new position, the squadron is considered to have moved and cannot move any further during that activation."

If this is your interpretation of the RAW, that's fine, but if FFG were trying to address this issue with this rules update, they failed miserably.

I am not sure at all and I think this fall into fair play but I can put here what I see.

1. Premeasure has its own rule in the RRG and says we can premeasure at any time. Only the ship movement is restricted.

2. The tournaments rule restrict the measurement (and premeasurement is supposed) to just 1 tool.

3. The final position is checked when the player removes the hand, not when removing the rule. The first is said in the tournament rule, the second is not said in the RRG.

So we could premeasure all we want before move, start the movement, even remove the rule and premeasure engament as we can do it at any time as long as just 1 tool is used and finally place the squadron.

The problem I see is that as long as I didn't move at max speed there is no way to check how long I moved or where was the initial position so placing the rule again in order to make some changes with the new info of engagement is impossible and the only thing I could do is just place the squadron where it is. Even moving at max speed the direction of the movemen could be changed placing the rule again so the corrections would not be precise.

The easiest way would be premeasure all you want and move then end. If you don't move exactly as you wish sorry.

But I am pretty sure all this is about fair play and the rule was written just to avoid slow play and funny situations where people say something like:

"Well I put Soontir here but I place it in a way that is engage with this amd this but not with this and is at distance 1 of howl but at distance 2 of Dengar but far away from your antisqaudron batteries"

And then you check and Soontir doesn't accomplish any of them.

7 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

That's great, but this has nothing to do with the Oxford comma. Even under Oxford, this isn't a scenario where you'd use a comma, regardless of the intended meaning.

Again, though: removing your hand from the squadron has no bearing on the finality of removing the ruler. You can do the one without doing the other. Thought experiment:

If it is true that the squadron must be placed immediately and finally upon removing the ruler, it doesn't matter if I leave my fingers on the squadron after removing the ruler. The rule clarification would have been better and more intuitively written as:

"Once a player removes the ruler from the table after placing a squadron in a new position, the squadron is considered to have moved and cannot move any further during that activation."

If this is your interpretation of the RAW, that's fine, but if FFG were trying to address this issue with this rules update, they failed miserably.

Like I said to thecolorred, if the TR overrules the RRG, we need to know that. Because you are right, does removing the ruler count as the end, or does removing the hand?

As far as I am aware, the TR does not overrule the RRG. That's what the FAQ is for. Rather, the TR expands on the RRG. I might be wrong, but I haven't read the entire TR in quite a while. Still, FFG should clarify it.

And this is still a problem which is caused by the new rule.

49 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

But that also runs into the problem of wanting to move in a different direction and not knowing where you started. You picked the tool to measure engagement, when it should have been in place to know where you were. And the rules also continue to say you can't use any other tools or markers since that breaks the 2 tool rule.

On 3/31/2017 at 11:15 AM, Ardaedhel said:

Can you shuffle your squadron around after placing it?

Can you measure distances to your squadron mid-movement?

What does the TR update mean?

I hate to re-open any can of worms but just curious... do we have a definitive answer on this? Any idea how this will be played at Worlds?