16 minutes ago, FlipmodeSH said:

With Attanni it sometimes feels like the actual ships chosen are of less consequence than the EPT itself.

This is nonsense. If it was the case, then a whole bunch more Mindlink lists would be viable. But... Assaj, Fenn, Teroch, Manaroo, Scout, and occasionally Ketsu and Kavil make up like 95% of Mindlink play.

I mean, even taking into account that several Scum ships are in need of fixes right now and ignoring them, you've still got 2 Fang generics, TPVs/Serissu and Inaldra/Gen Red/Quinn Jast, Ketsu, Bossk, Kad (whose ability plays really nicely in mindlink lists), etc etc etc e: and Z aces, HWK aces (Palob's ability plays amazingly with Mindlink but he doesn't show up much). But nope, the significant majority of the play is Scouts, Manaroo, Assaj, and Fenn.

But the problem is Mindlink.

Yup.

Mindlink.

Not the ships using it.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And I entirely disagree. Remove TLT from Miranda/Ghost/Y-Wing and they're not top ships. And the 'triple scouts aren't Attani' is entirely wrong (IMHO) as it's Attani/Agromech that drives the list and gives it fully modified attack (primary and ordnance) as well tactical flexibility and resilience. Take Attani off that list and it's not top tier.

I never said that without Attanis Triple scouts are top tier, I said that's not just Attanni to make them top.

An Attanni list to me is one like the Parattanni, where Attanni was almost the only upgrade and it was critically enough to make 3 efficient ships in top tier material.

3 Jumps right now uses a way bigger amount of upgrades to work. Torpedoes for a start, but last and not least Boba is critically important for their success. Calling them an Attanni list, even if you disagree with my previous definition, is an understatement at best and don't account for the fact that other "attanni lists" without ordnances are far from the same success right now (even if probably Parattanni is still good thought, it's just not so played right now. In Tatooine it made #9).

On the rebel side, TLTs are porbably harder to put a side for the definitions, but still, if we use your same arguments, those lists would be much less effective if you remove bombs and r3a2. TLT is a core part of those lists, true, but can we really label those as "TLT users"?

Apart than not taking into account the very nature of those archetype (ghost and miranda play a completly different game even when both have TLT), we are again underselling them as "just TLT ships". Bombs, stacking red dice, some form of actions economy are also core parts of the lists.

13 minutes ago, FlipmodeSH said:

With Attanni it sometimes feels like the actual ships chosen are of less consequence than the EPT itself.

It's fair to say that Attani makes any pile of jank into a decent list. Attani on a ship that's already good...?

13 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And I entirely disagree. Remove TLT from Miranda/Ghost/Y-Wing and they're not top ships. And the 'triple scouts aren't Attani' is entirely wrong (IMHO) as it's Attani/Agromech that drives the list and gives it fully modified attack (primary and ordnance) as well tactical flexibility and resilience. Take Attani off that list and it's not top tier.

This.

To your second sentence, I would add that Advanced Slam, Miranda's Regen, and Master Jedi Sabine makes the K-Wing the bomb, pardon the pun. It's the perfect storm of power that makes it's pilot amazing, just far too many tools that also can recover from poor rolls or getting out of a bad spot....without these, the K-Wing falls back from OP to the level of mere mortals like the rest of us fly. It's the bandwagon of easy power, we all gotta get on when we simply want or need to win one, if we're smart.

Thing is with Parattani is that you could just as easily say 'make Manaroo 1-2 points more expensive and take the EPT off the scout, and it's not top tier'.

And in that instance, you'd actually be hitting on the core of the issue with it, rather than a symptom.

Bombing K-Wings are the one top ship/list that doesn't fit the TLT/Attani template I think as they're stuck using their primary turrets. I'm not clear that it's still a top list, though, it seems to have been hit by the switch to stress/Miranda squads - I think the '12 bombs' squad may have quietly dropped down a little.

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

This.

To your second sentence, I would add that Advanced Slam, Miranda's Regen, and Master Jedi Sabine makes the K-Wing the bomb, pardon the pun. It's the perfect storm of power that makes it's pilot amazing, just far too many tools that also can recover from poor rolls or getting out of a bad spot....without these, the K-Wing falls back from OP to the level of mere mortals like the rest of us fly. It's the bandwagon of easy power, we all gotta get on when we simply want or need to win one, if we're smart.

And if you take out Ordnance from Tiple Jumps they are are not top tier all the same, exactly like Attanni alone doesn't make 4 scum ships top tier.

Attanni is very important to that list to work, but is enough to label it as "top tier is Attanni"? I don't think so, because it's not just Attanni that makes 3 jumps win tournaments. That's why I think it's misleading to refer at them as "just an attanni list"

Or, to put it another way, if just attani was enough, 4 TPVs with mindlink and mangler cannons would be winning.

But lol

(it woudl be super fun to run, though)

5 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

And if you take out Ordnance from Tiple Jumps they are are not top tier all the same, exactly like Attanni alone doesn't make 4 scum ships top tier.

Attanni is very important to that list to work, but is enough to label it as "top tier is Attanni"? I don't think so, because it's not just Attanni that makes 3 jumps win tournaments. That's why I think it's misleading to refer at them as "just an attanni list"

I just think this an odd semantic position to take, but that it is purely semantics.

I'd also like you to point to where I used the word 'just'?

24 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This is nonsense. If it was the case, then a whole bunch more Mindlink lists would be viable. But... Assaj, Fenn, Teroch, Manaroo, Scout, and occasionally Ketsu and Kavil make up like 95% of Mindlink play.

I mean, even taking into account that several Scum ships are in need of fixes right now and ignoring them, you've still got 2 Fang generics, TPVs/Serissu and Inaldra/Gen Red/Quinn Jast, Ketsu, Bossk, Kad (whose ability plays really nicely in mindlink lists), etc etc etc e: and Z aces, HWK aces (Palob's ability plays amazingly with Mindlink but he doesn't show up much). But nope, the significant majority of the play is Scouts, Manaroo, Assaj, and Fenn.

But the problem is Mindlink.

Yup.

Mindlink.

Not the ships using it.

Jesus.... I remembered to put a smiley on and everything.

26 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's fair to say that Attani makes any pile of jank into a decent list. Attani on a ship that's already good...?

Yes...."use the force Luke."

There are threads in the data that expose the powers that create the top tier Meta. It's clear that Scum have some great ships, but great ships alone don't cut the championship mustard. I believe one can clearly see that Attani is the thing that puts a really solid Scum squad that wins more times than it looses up to a fantastic Scum squad. TLTs and other dice mitigating damage dealers make really solid Rebel squads that can win using Biggs, Regen and Sabine into ones that win easily.

Yes, one can claim "stats are for loosers," but I believe that matrix like these tell the real story.

If you guys haven't already, by all means, take the red pill.

27 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I just think this an odd semantic position to take, but that it is purely semantics.

I'd also like you to point to where I used the word 'just'?

Labelling them as "Top tier is Attanni" is what I'm cricizing.

Top Tier has been Attanni since parattanni exploded in the meta. Your categorization seems to imply continuity between Parattanni meta and early post-FAQ meta, which 50+ people tournaments results don't seem to have so far.

You never used "just", but defending your label you seemed to consider it above anything else. If I misunderstood your position I apologize, I just wanted to point our the difference between the current Attannis 3 ships (3 jumps & 2 jumps + Fenn) from the previous ones because I think that, while they both use Attanni, Parattanni was a complelty differen list from these

25 minutes ago, FlipmodeSH said:

Jesus.... I remembered to put a smiley on and everything.

You did. Apologies.

But there are a lot of people who seem to genuinely believe that or something like it.

5 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes, one can claim "stats are for loosers," but I believe that matrix like these tell the real story.

If you guys haven't already, by all means, take the red pill.

I don't think that people are claiming that the statistics don't tell a story, more that there needs to be a greater deal of statistical rigour when dealing with this data. I'll quote directly from the meta-wing about page:

"Maybe I'll change the algorithm to something more founded in statistics some time, but for now, it appears to bring the squads one would expect to the top."

That is confirmational bias, plain and simple. Whilst both meta-wing is a fantastic tool for tracking aggregated results, and I'm not going to claim that the analysis presented here is false or deliberately misleading, the sample sizes involved in these rankings are small, thus you need to be very careful when drawing conclusions without first performing some level of significance testing.

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

You never used "just", but defending your label you seemed to consider it above anything else. If I misunderstood your position I apologize, I just wanted to point our the difference between the current Attannis 3 ships (3 jumps & 2 jumps + Fenn) from the previous ones because I think that, while they both use Attanni, Parattanni was a complelty differen list from these

Paratanni still IS. The 'Attani' label is a useful shortcut for the profusion of different lists that are all successful and have one defining trait in common - Attani Mindlink. Triple Scouts, Scouts & Fenn, Paratanni, Fangaroo... they're all up at the top tables post-nerf and the common denominator in all the variants is 'good ships with Attani Mindlink'.

You seem to have quite a narrow definition of what Mindlink lists were pre-nerf, and also of what they are now.

3 minutes ago, Wannabe PhD said:

you need to be very careful when drawing conclusions without first performing some level of significance testing.

I think that goes without saying, but then people keep asking me to say it... :-/

I do think it's directionally accurate and supports a plausible narrative, though.

7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Paratanni still IS. The 'Attani' label is a useful shortcut for the profusion of different lists that are all successful and have one defining trait in common - Attani Mindlink. Triple Scouts, Scouts & Fenn, Paratanni, Fangaroo... they're all up at the top tables post-nerf and the common denominator in all the variants is 'good ships with Attani Mindlink'.

You seem to have quite a narrow definition of what Mindlink lists were pre-nerf, and also of what they are now.

The thing those lists all have in common is Jumpmasters as much as it is Mindlink.

9 minutes ago, Wannabe PhD said:

I don't think that people are claiming that the statistics don't tell a story, more that there needs to be a greater deal of statistical rigour when dealing with this data. I'll quote directly from the meta-wing about page:

"Maybe I'll change the algorithm to something more founded in statistics some time, but for now, it appears to bring the squads one would expect to the top."

That is confirmational bias, plain and simple. Whilst both meta-wing is a fantastic tool for tracking aggregated results, and I'm not going to claim that the analysis presented here is false or deliberately misleading, the sample sizes involved in these rankings are small, thus you need to be very careful when drawing conclusions without first performing some level of significance testing.

I believe you can use this data well to say that things are (maybe too) good. You can't use it well to say something is bad.

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The thing those lists all have in common is Jumpmasters as much as it is Mindlink.

The # of Jumpmasters varies from 1 to 3. The number Attani Mindlinks varies from 3 to 3.

17 minutes ago, Wannabe PhD said:

I don't think that people are claiming that the statistics don't tell a story, more that there needs to be a greater deal of statistical rigour when dealing with this data. I'll quote directly from the meta-wing about page:

"Maybe I'll change the algorithm to something more founded in statistics some time, but for now, it appears to bring the squads one would expect to the top."

That is confirmational bias, plain and simple. Whilst both meta-wing is a fantastic tool for tracking aggregated results, and I'm not going to claim that the analysis presented here is false or deliberately misleading, the sample sizes involved in these rankings are small, thus you need to be very careful when drawing conclusions without first performing some level of significance testing.

If your criteria is "Includes Contracted Scouts" or "Includes Biggs" then yes, using a test like Chi-Squared is definitely going to produce a result. The low end is problematic but we don't care about the title of worst ship.

4 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I believe you can use this data well to say that things are (maybe too) good. You can't use it well to say something is bad.

I disagree to an extent. I think the ranking breaks down and become less reliable at the bottom as the sample size of underperforming ships becomes smaller as ships are played less (see the Kihraxz in 22nd), but that the decline in their popularity can be viewed as a reinforcement of their position at the bottom end of the scale. There's a quality selection criteria you can infer from the sample size.

You can also view the performance of ships over multiple time segments as a reinforcement that their position in any one segment is broadly correct (which suggests the Kihraxz's 22nd place may not be warranted).

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I disagree to an extent. I think the ranking breaks down and become less reliable at the bottom as the sample size of underperforming ships becomes smaller as ships are played less (see the Kihraxz in 22nd), but that the decline in their popularity can be viewed as a reinforcement of their position at the bottom end of the scale. There's a quality selection criteria you can infer from the sample size.

You can also view the performance of ships over multiple time segments as a reinforcement that their position in any one segment is broadly correct (which suggests the Kihraxz's 22nd place may not be warranted).

Yes, the bad ships are at the bottom because they are bad, but some ships may be at the bottom because they aren't figured out. Which these would be I don't know obviously, because I'd have them figured out, but for example the TIE/sf demonstrates this to some extend.

9 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The # of Jumpmasters varies from 1 to 3. The number Attani Mindlinks varies from 3 to 3.

The number of lists with Jumpmasters in is 100%.

And all but one of them has Fenn, too.

I'm not remotely convinced that Mindlink is the problem.

Sort of, but the TIE/sf hasn't really been down the bottom at any point (apart from the first entry when it was pre-release on Vassal) and has only really sprung to light as much since the Defenders have dropped down.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

The number of lists with Jumpmasters in is 100%.

And all but one of them has Fenn, too.

I'm not remotely convinced that Mindlink is the problem.

Apart from Asajj, Fenn, Teroch with Mindlink, which is good and doesn't have Jumpmasters.

There are good Mindlink lists without Jumpmasters (although most use Jumpmasters because, you know... they're Jumpmasters) but there aren't good Jumpmaster lists without Mindlink.