2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:Voitek has a personal issue with me, which I think is colouring his approach to this unfortunately.
Lol, I only have issues with populistic manipulations - please stay on the topic and spare us your personal psychological analyses?
1 minute ago, Voitek said:As you are the one that created the chart, can you give us a bit more details what was actually being used to populate the data?
- all tournaments / large tournaments / Open series+Regio tournaments?
- all available lists / TOP8 / CUT whenever its TOP8, 16 or 32?
- if all lists uploaded were analysed, then if someone puts his list that ended up on position 237 on a 275 people tournament, is he going to be included as well?
Time filters were the only ones I changed from default.
2 minutes ago, Timathius said:That is really all I am asking for is for him to add that to his first post. I don't think I have made it at all personal, and if I have I apologize.
Based on 25 events across the world, mostly store kits, with very limited data entry.
Done.
I'm just not sure what else you think it COULD be based on? A limited time period with limited events is self-evident in this case.
Just now, Stay On The Leader said:I'm just not sure what else you think it COULD be based on? A limited time period with limited events is self-evident in this case.
If you think most people on the internet take the time to research presented conclusions. I have a bridge to sell you....
5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:Time filters were the only ones I changed from default.
Okay, so expanding the question.
I was looking for the answer to this question before and I couldn't find it. My search-fu is just not strong enough (or they arent available).
do you know what kind of data is being analysed by the default Mjr.Juggler algorithm? Does size of tournament/rank of tournament matters? all results available / some kind of TOP only?
8 minutes ago, Thormind said:I think after seing A-wings in the top 8 of the last open people will start giving them a chance. The ship i'm most surprised seing so low is the ARC. It's a really good ship, especially when flown by Nora. The person i practice the most with has a skill level a bit lower than me. But it's now his favorite ship because hes able to compete with it and "sometime" beat me :-) Not a bad dial, 2 arcs with a title to enhance both and a pilot ability to add a dice on both offense and/or defense... I think its a sleeper hit. Hes playing her with that that nice BB8/marksmanship/kanan combo
Well, Norra is a bit awkward. Without Biggs (heck, even with him sometimes, look at Heavers Naboo list), Miranda is better in almost all cases. They are too expensive to be run alongside each other, too, so they are exclusive. So all thats left is Norra/Biggs/third ship, an archetype that isn't the most favourable at the moment. The third ship is just so up in the air, as 34 points isn't the best spot for rebel ships. You can run Stress-Braylen and would do well against many things, but he shares most of Norras weaknesses. And he is too expensive for what he does against Mindlinkers. A Sabine Warden is another option that is looking good, but that is a weird ship to fly with Biggs. Maybe Thane Kyrell can be used in some way, but that is again no killer. Maybe the rebel pilot for the new scum ship will able to close that gap.
Just now, Voitek said:Okay, so expanding the question.
I was looking for the answer to this question before and I couldn't find it. My search-fu is just not strong enough (or they arent available).
do you know what kind of data is being analysed by the default Mjr.Juggler algorithms? Does size of tournament/rank of tournament matters?
Most tournament analysis algo is for the sporting industry and analyses individual elements like players. Ships and lists are difficult to rank since the same "player" ranks twice, three times...
1 minute ago, Admiral Deathrain said:Well, Norra is a bit awkward. Without Biggs (heck, even with him sometimes, look at Heavers Naboo list), Miranda is better in almost all cases. They are too expensive to be run alongside each other, too, so they are exclusive. So all thats left is Norra/Biggs/third ship, an archetype that isn't the most favourable at the moment. The third ship is just so up in the air, as 34 points isn't the best spot for rebel ships. You can run Stress-Braylen and would do well against many things, but he shares most of Norras weaknesses. And he is too expensive for what he does against Mindlinkers. A Sabine Warden is another option that is looking good, but that is a weird ship to fly with Biggs. Maybe Thane Kyrell can be used in some way, but that is again no killer. Maybe the rebel pilot for the new scum ship will able to close that gap.
There was Norra + 4xCrack Awing in the top 8 of last Open. Not sure if the pilot got lucky but i'd assume you need good ships to finish on top of a 300+ players tournament (maybe with a little luck? :-).
Wow, seems to have struck a nerve for some...
First things first:
1. How to read this, with the example of the Attack Shuttle and the VCX-100: The Attack Shuttle is ranked higher. That means that it placed better, on average. If (!) we assume that it is 100% played with the Ghost, then we can conclude that the Ghost without shuttle is less successful than with the shuttle.
2. The A-Wing is 40th: if you take some time to check the original data, you will notice that some error snuck in. I already informed @haslo. The GSP has a negative percentile, so that can't be correct.
3. Closer look at the X-Wing, in the most recent time slot: there are 47 squads, and Biggs was used in 38 of them (we know, because Biggs is unique). There were at least 54 X-Wings being used. At least because the site doesn't count generics, only squads with them. The minimal number of X-Wings is thus 58 (there are two lists with 3 generics each) and the maximal number is 74 - if there are 4 squads flying 4 rookies.
So an X-Wing that's not Biggs was used >=16 times. Out of these >=16 times, at least 9 were flown alone without Biggs, because there are 47 Squadrons. I will have a closer look at them:
So the remaining 6 squads (44 minus 38) had at least 8 X-Wings which were not Biggs.
We can however say, that Biggs was 38/48 named X-Wing pilots, which is 80%. TL;DR: Yes, X-Wing stell needs some corrections.
Edited by GreenDragoon6 minutes ago, Voitek said:Okay, so expanding the question.
I was looking for the answer to this question before and I couldn't find it. My search-fu is just not strong enough (or they arent available).
do you know what kind of data is being analysed by the default Mjr.Juggler algorithm? Does size of tournament/rank of tournament matters? all results available / some kind of TOP only?
your search-fu must be weak as it's prominently linked on his front page.
Just now, Lampyridae said:Most tournament analysis algo is for the sporting industry and analyses individual elements like players. Ships and lists are difficult to rank since the same "player" ranks twice, three times...
You are correct. But that does not mean you can't build it. I am sure the agorithm itself is aggregating the data properly - my only concern is the amount and pre-selection of data. Look at an average tournament: Cardiff Regionals in Scotland few weeks ago. All lists from TOP16 are available, as well as the list of a gut who was 69th. Just because. Is his list being analysed as well? Im sure the algorithm could do it easily, reducing the "weight" of this list for the final results (as he scored 69th of 120ish people), but... is it? Or is it not?
30 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:Haha, I have no sway that I'm aware of!
Your blog has been positively cited multiple times by at least 3 of the leading podcasts and the creator of Parattanni credits your blog with helping to popularize the build, which you've acknowledged.
You know that you have a certain amount of sway in this community.
Just now, Thormind said:There was Norra + 4xCrack Awing in the top 8 of last Open. Not sure if the pilot got lucky but i'd assume you need good ships to finish on top of a 300+ players tournament (maybe with a little luck? :-).
A little bit of luck is always in the mix of course, but no, I wouldn't assume it. Norra is good for sure, but Miranda is just that hair better most of the time. That doesn't mean you can't win with Norra! The question that remains is wether that player wouldn't have had a similar or even better result with Miranda.
*Snif*
My beloved IG-88 at position 36!
Just now, Stay On The Leader said:your search-fu must be weak as it's prominently linked on his front page.
Yet my reading-fu is better than yours, because answers to those questions is not on this page. Also no need to be mean and sarcastic- unless you really want to proove something in the argument over plastic spaceships on the internet?
There is only this one sentence: "For this, I calculate the percentile of each squadron's result in each tournament, already when importing the Lists Juggler data" which suggests all lists, but no information if this includes all tournaments, or only some of them?
Just now, Q10fanatic said:You know that you have a certain amount of sway in this community.
I genuinely don't think I do. Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't know why my opinion would be valued more than any others.
I find things that interest me and assume that if I'm interested then other might be too. That's the limit of my ambitions.
Just now, Stay On The Leader said:I genuinely don't think I do. Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't know why my opinion would be valued more than any others.
I find things that interest me and assume that if I'm interested then other might be too. That's the limit of my ambitions.
No-one is saying that you are actively trying to sway people's opinions. Only that you do, and that you should be taking more care with the way you present data and your conclusions therefor.
1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:I find things that interest me and assume that if I'm interested then other might be too. That's the limit of my ambitions.
I super appreciate what your interested in and the work you did; I'll wager 99% of this awesome community does as well....there is always those who will be contrary regardless of what is presented.
Love the very informative albeit mostly raw data! Well done!
Biggs carrying hard the Xwings up there. Git gud Wedge.
Just now, Voitek said:Yet my reading-fu is better than yours, because answers to those questions is not on this page. Also no need to be mean and sarcastic- unless you really want to proove something in the argument over plastic spaceships on the internet?
There is only this one sentence: "For this, I calculate the percentile of each squadron's result in each tournament, already when importing the Lists Juggler data" which suggests all lists, but no information if this includes all tournaments, or only some of them?
Then the answer is that I don't know and I'm taking it at face value and assuming other people who are smarter than me have done their pieces correctly.
Ive posted this chart in numerous places and almost everywhere I've said "assuming what meta-wing does with listjuggler data is valid". Now I know you've seen that because you've attacked me on Facebook as well as here.
It is what it is, it's not claiming to be anything else, it's making no effort to lead the reader, its drawing ZERO conclusions.
I found it interesting. It told me things I didn't know or expect to find out. My mistake was assuming other people would find it interesting instead of insulting.
1 hour ago, Pretty Green said:And stop saying that Palpatine´s nerf was a good thing?
The fact that it is no longer the go-to for Imperial lists IS a good thing. Like, diversify your meta duuuude.
I believe the A-Wing is ranked 40 - I have been using one and it can not push damage through - especially if your opponent has an evade token. I wish they would just give it an extra attack dice or reusable prockets. I would even love some of the sycke upgrades. Forget about the x-wing fix my A-Wings
4 minutes ago, Timathius said:No-one is saying that you are actively trying to sway people's opinions. Only that you do, and that you should be taking more care with the way you present data and your conclusions therefor.
What conclusions did I present?
6 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:The fact that it is no longer the go-to for Imperial lists IS a good thing. Like, diversify your meta duuuude.
Okay. But Rebels should do the same. Old R2-D2 has been a "must have" since the beginning. He's harming diversity of Astromech choices and should be nerfed for diversity.
edit: Oh and Biggs. He's be a major feature in many winning Rebels lists. He should be nerfed for diversity reasons.
Edited by SabineKeyWhat this tells me is that the best way to shake up the meta is ban the JM5K. Clearly that ship has been broken from the get go and still is OP despite 2-3 nerfings.
Edited by Darth Meanie