13 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

If your criteria is "Includes Contracted Scouts" or "Includes Biggs" then yes, using a test like Chi-Squared is definitely going to produce a result. The low end is problematic but we don't care about the title of worst ship.

I doubt it, there is unlikely to be enough data available, especially for the post 4.3.2 population, to even dream of it being normally distributed.

15 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think the ranking breaks down and become less reliable at the bottom as the sample size of underperforming ships becomes smaller as ships are played less (see the Kihraxz in 22nd), but that the decline in their popularity can be viewed as a reinforcement of their position at the bottom end of the scale. There's a quality selection criteria you can infer from the sample size.

9 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Yes, the bad ships are at the bottom because they are bad, but some ships may be at the bottom because they aren't figured out. Which these would be I don't know obviously, because I'd have them figured out, but for example the TIE/sf demonstrates this to some extent.

You guys are both correct.

If you take the data (data is objective) --even though it is relatively a small sample-- it exposes the backbone of the meta. Sure there is variance and meat on the bones, but if we keep our collective biases at bay (keep our heads out of our butts so to speak) we all know what ships often don't perform at the top well at all (Punisher as a clear example) and ones that clearly do (Jumps and K-Wings as clear examples). We can also see the common pieces or threads of builds that make them tick at the top (Attani, Biggs, TLT, Regen).

Actually, this game's Meta is NOT rocket science. It's plastic pew-pew science. Easy really.

Now where's my tea?

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

Apart from Asajj, Fenn, Teroch with Mindlink, which is good and doesn't have Jumpmasters.

And, you know, wasn't in the list of lists you posted initially

(And still has Fenn)

(And even now you're acknowledging that Jumps are a big part of the issue)

Mindlink happens to be their best tool at the moment, but you take it away and *they'll find another*. They don't stop being far too cheap just because you take away their best toys.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

And, you know, wasn't in the list of lists you posted initially

(And still has Fenn)

(And even now you're acknowledging that Jumps are a big part of the issue)

Mindlink happens to be their best tool at the moment, but you take it away and *they'll find another*. They don't stop being far too cheap just because you take away their best toys.

I think we're having different conversations. I at no point was trying to argue whether Jumpmasters were/weren't 'an issue', or even if Attani Mindlink is /isn't 'an issue'. I'm not interested in that at all.

I'm saying you can collectively draw a bubble around the top performing ships by saying they're usually seen in squads with either Attani Mindlink or Twin Laser Turret.

If attani would be the issue, then quadruple-scyks with attani would be dominating, as well as Gand Findsmans with attani, as well as concord dawn veterans/aces.

But they arent! Attani is a good EPT, but it's not turning jank into strong ships.

The jump is a good chasis, and I can take a bet here and now: if FFG would ever nerf attani, then triple jumps would move to triple-crack shots build and still be powerful as they are right now.

(totally fine by me - but I can understand all the imperial and rebel whiners who just can't accept the fact that scums finally have a proper competitive ship that can reiably stand against both Defenders And Kwings ;))

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think we're having different conversations. I at no point was trying to argue whether Jumpmasters were/weren't 'an issue', or even if Attani Mindlink is /isn't 'an issue'. I'm not interested in that at all.

I'm saying you can collectively draw a bubble around the top performing ships by saying they're almost always seen in squads with either Attani Mindlink or Twin Laser Turret.

And you can just as easily do the same and say they're almost always seen in squads with Jumpmasters and K Wings. Because they are Jumpmasters and K Wings.

You seem to be more focussed on the upgrades than I believe is warranted. I'm more focussed on the chassis the upgrades sit on.

1 minute ago, Voitek said:

If attani would be the issue, then quadruple-scyks with attani would be dominating, as well as Gand Findsmans with attani, as well as concord dawn veterans/aces.

But they arent! Attani is a good EPT, but it's not turning jank into strong ships.

The jump is a good chasis, and I can taka w bet here and now: if FFG would ever nerf attani, then triple jumps would move to triple-crack shots build and still be powerful as they are right now.

(totally fine by me - but I can understand all the imperial and rebel whiners who just can't accept the fact that scums finally have a proper competitive ship that can reiably stand against both Defenders And Kwings ;))

This. Well, apart from the bracketed part; I'm not convinced even triple crack Jumps wouldn't still be dominating top tables. It would be interesting to find out, for a given value of interesting. I'd like to see parity, not dominance.

If I had a third Jumpmaster I'd almost be inclined to test out triple crack jumps or maybe two crack jumps and PTL Fenn if that fits. It seems like it would be pretty solid.

15 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Paratanni still IS. The 'Attani' label is a useful shortcut for the profusion of different lists that are all successful and have one defining trait in common - Attani Mindlink. Triple Scouts, Scouts & Fenn, Paratanni, Fangaroo... they're all up at the top tables post-nerf and the common denominator in all the variants is 'good ships with Attani Mindlink'.

You seem to have quite a narrow definition of what Mindlink lists were pre-nerf, and also of what they are now.

Parattanni might still be (personally I think so), but it wasn't very present at the 4 tournaments with 50+ players Meta wing took the data from.

Afaik its best results, which is also a good results, was #9 at tattooine.

In the early post-faq meta we are discussing here, at least in the big tournaments, it was underrepresented.

If you were accounting parattanni in the tier 1 "attanni" then I didn't know, because while I personally think it might be the case that parattanni is still top tier, we kinda lack evidences to say so for now.

Before the Faq we had 3 successful parattanni lists, in this order:

-parattanni

-old fennaroo

-the pocknell

Other combinations were either underrepresented (mads made top 4 of lothal with mindlink jumps for example, but other than him and manzano, it's not like it was a common archetype) or not as succesfull.

Exactly like right now there isn't enough representation of non jumps attanni to say that they are still tier 1.

However my point is still another: putting attanni ordnance jumps in the same label of non ordnance is extremely misleading because the only thing they have in common is the card. The playstle is way different than it was between paratanni and old fennaroo.

To put in another prospective: would you call both palpaces and the miranda/corran runner up at worlds "PTL lists" if you were to make a tier list like you did some post ago?

If the answer is yes then ok, I understand that you prefer labelling lists and archetype for the cards they are build with rather than their playstyle

3 minutes ago, Voitek said:

If attani would be the issue, then quadruple-scyks with attani would be dominating, as well as Gand Findsmans with attani, as well as concord dawn veterans/aces.

But they arent! Attani is a good EPT, but it's not turning jank into strong ships.

Mmm, apart from the regional won by Mindlinked Gand Findsmans... and TBH Mindlinked Scyks are likely to get quite scary once the C-ROC arrives.

Personally I've played some UTTER jank scum lists that have Mindlink in, and Mindlink makes them way way better than they have any right to be. I was deliberately trying to tie one hand behind my back and run **** (it was exactly Gand Findsmen and Concord Aces) and was struggling to lose casual games with it.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

And you can just as easily do the same and say they're almost always seen in squads with Jumpmasters and K Wings. Because they are Jumpmasters and K Wings.

You seem to be more focussed on the upgrades than I believe is warranted. I'm more focussed on the chassis the upgrades sit on.

This. Well, apart from the bracketed part; I'm not convinced even triple crack Jumps wouldn't still be dominating top tables. It would be interesting to find out, for a given value of interesting. I'd like to see parity, not dominance.

If I had a third Jumpmaster I'd almost be inclined to test out triple crack jumps or maybe two crack jumps and PTL Fenn if that fits. It seems like it would be pretty solid.

Sometimes I wonder why I ever un-ignored you.

1 minute ago, Voitek said:

(totally fine by me - but I can understand all the imperial and rebel whiners who just can't accept the fact that scums finally have a proper competitive ship that can reiably stand against both Defenders And Kwings ;))

"reliably stand"?? With that dial, cost and stat line? It does much more than "stand" my good friend, it dominates. We don't even need the OP's matrix to understand that. That is the one given OP ship in the X-Wing fleet that the designers keep taking pot-shots at the edges, but refuse to deal with the real issue...for fear of admitting they really 'screwed the pooch' on that design and failed to properly test it prior to ordering a metric ton of the d*** things.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Mmm, apart from the regional won by Mindlinked Gand Findsmans... and TBH Mindlinked Scyks are likely to get quite scary once the C-ROC arrives.

Personally I've played some UTTER jank scum lists that have Mindlink in, and Mindlink makes them way way better than they have any right to be. I was deliberately trying to tie one hand behind my back and run **** (it was exactly Gand Findsmen and Concord Aces) and was struggling to lose casual games with it.

I wasn't aware of Gand finsmans winning regionals - do you recall which one was it? It's actually a good news. Yet I wouldnt get overly excited about it, it's just one tournament. Was it a large 50-100 or one of the smaller, 20ish people regional?

As for the scyks, I tried mindlinked Tansari veterans few times (even with serissu in the mix) and they still die too quickly. Granted, having 3 agility+focus+evade is great but they just die too quickly once properly focused (and with PS5 they cant really prevent the enemy from focusing them).

If attani is turning junk ships into average, playable ships (scyks/g1s/kirahex) then we should really be greatful we have acces to this EPT. Because everywhere else it's still old boring VI/PTL almost everywhere (with Expertise pushing to the top used EPT's as well).

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Sometimes I wonder why I ever un-ignored you.

You ignore people? I prefer to talk to them, it makes for much more interesting conversations.

Like this one, I'm finding it quite enlightening and enjoyable.

I'm sorry if you're not

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This. Well, apart from the bracketed part; I'm not convinced even triple crack Jumps wouldn't still be dominating top tables. It would be interesting to find out, for a given value of interesting. I'd like to see parity, not dominance.

If I had a third Jumpmaster I'd almost be inclined to test out triple crack jumps or maybe two crack jumps and PTL Fenn if that fits. It seems like it would be pretty solid.

There was a moment, after deadeye nerf, but in pre-parattani era, when triple jumps with adaptability were cracking some serious results in a couple of american regionals. Saved points were invested in K4 security droids on 2 of them I believe?

22 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

... (snip)... It's plastic pew-pew science.

This made me smile. Sorry, carry on.

Just now, Voitek said:

There was a moment, after deadeye nerf, but in pre-parattani era, when triple jumps with adaptability were cracking some serious results in a couple of american regionals. Saved points were invested in K4 security droids on 2 of them I believe?

Trick Shot was going to be my other thought, actually - but then, the time period you mention was before that came out. I could see Trick Shot and K4 going somewhere on Torpscouts. But Crack would probably be better overall I suspect. From an intellectual perspective, although not so much from a player perspective, I'd be interested to find out.

Each nerf would probably bring them more and more into the realms of balance, but... at what cost? R4 Agromech just went back to obscurity immediately, because other than JM5ks, the only other Scum ship with Agromech is the Y Wing and they ALL want Unhinged. Deadeye went from playable, briefly, to pointless even though a fairly-priced elite generic that can use it popped up shortly before the nerf. I can't think of a nerf to Mindlink that wouldn't drop it back into useless obscurity if you made it bad enough that the Scouts wouldn't want it, except possibly making it small ship only which would be weird as heck given that it's supposed to originate from Manaroo and her species. But it being small ship only would probably be OK, and would keep it usable on interesting small ship lists.

But all of this is treating the symptoms without curing the disease.

15 minutes ago, Voitek said:

I wasn't aware of Gand finsmans winning regionals - do you recall which one was it? It's actually a good news. Yet I wouldnt get overly excited about it, it's just one tournament. Was it a large 50-100 or one of the smaller, 20ish people regional?

As for the scyks, I tried mindlinked Tansari veterans few times (even with serissu in the mix) and they still die too quickly. Granted, having 3 agility+focus+evade is great but they just die too quickly once properly focused (and with PS5 they cant really prevent the enemy from focusing them).

If attani is turning junk ships into average, playable ships (scyks/g1s/kirahex) then we should really be greatful we have acces to this EPT. Because everywhere else it's still old boring VI/PTL almost everywhere (with Expertise pushing to the top used EPT's as well).

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2370

Austin, 73 players.

I like Mindlink. But it's probably too powerful.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Each nerf would probably bring them more and more into the realms of balance, but... at what cost? R4 Agromech just went back to obscurity immediately, because other than JM5ks, the only other Scum ship with Agromech is the Y Wing and they ALL want Unhinged. Deadeye went from playable, briefly, to pointless even though a fairly-priced elite generic that can use it popped up shortly before the nerf. I can't think of a nerf to Mindlink that wouldn't drop it back into useless obscurity if you made it bad enough that the Scouts wouldn't want it, except possibly making it small ship only which would be weird as heck given that it's supposed to originate from Manaroo and her species. But it being small ship only would probably be OK, and would keep it usable on interesting small ship lists.

But all of this is treating the symptoms without curing the disease.

This.

Well penned.

They should of left the other stuff alone, it's quite sad they missed the mark so heavily. The real problem with Scum wasn't the things FFG nerfed, the minor symptoms....everybody knows the d*** toilet seat is the disease.

23 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Mmm, apart from the regional won by Mindlinked Gand Findsmans... and TBH Mindlinked Scyks are likely to get quite scary once the C-ROC arrives.

Personally I've played some UTTER jank scum lists that have Mindlink in, and Mindlink makes them way way better than they have any right to be. I was deliberately trying to tie one hand behind my back and run **** (it was exactly Gand Findsmen and Concord Aces) and was struggling to lose casual games with it.

The problem is how do you nerf Attani withouth actually pushing players even more towards a 3 uboat list ? All i had read is people asking for range, and it makes me wonder if they are actually thinking what it would accomplish.

The problem is how do you nerf Attani withouth actually pushing players even more towards a 3 uboat list ? All i had read is people asking for range, and it makes me wonder if they are actually thinking what it would accomplish.

As noted above, Small Ship Only is probably the only way to keep it playable whilst keeping it out of the hands of the Scout.

And as noted above, the Scout then probably just switches to Crack Shot or a 0 point EPT and K4, or... etc.

Attani is not a problem, the Jumpmaster is. How many cards need to be nerfed for people to notice that?

Thanks for the informative OP.

This proves X-Wings don't need a fix and will not receive one any time soon.

And for the "it's just Biggs" posts; most ships only have 1 pilot used competitively. It doesn't matter who the 1 pilot is: if your 1 pilot is top 5 being played, then your ship is closer to nerf than buff.

Xwing complaints are mostly because they actually want to play an Xwing and not a punching bag.

The problem is how do you nerf Attani withouth actually pushing players even more towards a 3 uboat list ? All i had read is people asking for range, and it makes me wonder if they are actually thinking what it would accomplish.

Depends, if you make it Range 1 it probably accomplishes quite a lot, and would actually reward creative flying if you could 'chain' your Range 1 bubbles across the table.

My suggestion was to add the word 'unstressed' between 'other' and 'friendly' which doesn't immediately do much to change the way the upgrade functions but makes stress more of a weakness. I believe Attani Mindlink was intended to be balanced with stress as the weakness (much like Zuckuss) when in fact Mindlink lists are more resilient to stress, not less resilient.

Attani is not a problem, the Jumpmaster is. How many cards need to be nerfed for people to notice that?

Time to dump the dump master.

So first, I want to applaud you for quantifying your data better this time. That is all most of us were asking for just to avoid people jumping to conclusions and fomenting toxic viewpoint of the game.

Second, you changed the title of this thread. My question is, why is it that when others complain about things it is "toxic whining" but when you complain for two months about paratanni it isnt? You are just coming across a bit childish when you do something like that. Obviously there are trolls on these forums and people who are not enjoyable to debate against (myself included at times) but that is why there is an ignore button.