1 minute ago, ObiWonka said:

1) Oh, we've reached the "git gud" argument already? There have been threads/blogs about how to hit pretty much anything toward the front or side of your K-Wing with a bomb.

2) So? "Darn, I guess my turn is wasted since I can't shoot, all I got to do was blow that 30+ point ace with a single mine out of the cluster." Gee, what a shame for the bomber to have such a bad turn.

3) They shouldn't be dominating tables. Nothing should dominate. And they are good, Sabine just pushes them over the top to where they
PUSH MANY OTHER SHIPS OUT OF THE COMPETITIVE GAME.

(this is the problem)

4) So we keep going with power creep, then, until all 3 factions have something as overpowered as Sabine? Or, you know, we can errata some of the overpowered stuff, like, I dunno, Phantom decloak rules, /X7, Palpatine, Manaroo, Zuckuss, etc.

let's agree to disagree fam. I think you're objectively wrong in all the ways that matter, you think the same of me. who tf cares.

50 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Somewhat like that, except without the ugly k-shaped monstrosity. In other words, if Sabine is good on her own, she's good without the K Wing. Right?

This.

I didn't want to poke subjective fun at the ugliest ship in the game for it misses the point, but I agree, the K-Wing is the main reason Sabine is so wicked due to SLAM.

44 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Sabine made me win a 28 player tournament, that's enough of a reason to say she is op. On a more serious note: She is very strong, but the problem I would say are Cluster Mines.

And yet again, the Admiral hits the nail on the head...when I see Sabine deal the pain that is practically unavoidable via the K-Wing delivery service, it's with Clusters.

You got it, bae.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

The nearest enemy ship in range will always be the one that triggered the bomb, for action-bombs, just to note.

For my money, Sabine would probably be OK limited to range 1-2.

But I'd also like to see Advanced SLAM cost a stress, like EI and PTL.

It doesn't need to stress you, it takes your shot away. That's a huge trade-off after slamming.

4 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

It doesn't need to stress you, it takes your shot away. That's a huge trade-off after slamming.

Not really. You've just done significantly more damage and/or control by SLAMming and bombing than you would have by shooting anyway. Not shooting is nowhere near enough to make up for dealing 1+ points of automatic damage with no defence possible at all.

I mean, it's not like a bomber Warden would have done much with its 2-dice-with-focus anyway.

And the less said about Miranda the better.

38 minutes ago, costi said:

Oh no, you don't. Twice I was on the receiving end of a K-Wing dropping a mine on one of his own ships just to finish an ace that was at R1 of the token.

Very true. I'd like to reword my previous errata.

Once per round, before a friendly bomb token is removed, the closest enemy ship at Range 1 of that token suffers 1 damage.

That should stop people bombing themselves.

40 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

let's agree to disagree fam. I think you're objectively wrong in all the ways that matter, you think the same of me. who tf cares.

Fair, but ObiWonka isn't the only one who disagrees with you.

1 hour ago, taulover55 said:

I Love Sabine. i was running bombs prior to her making an appearance, once she showed up my bombs became Golden.

I think it should be damage to the nearest enemy ship rather than any ship in range (from a thematic stand point) but still, plinking extra hull off dengar when he cant retaliate is always a good thing.

AFAIK, there're no references anywhere in the game to "the closest ship", because there's no way, using the equipment you get with the core set, to measure anything more precisely than range 1, 2 or 3. Therefore, I situations where the closest ship is even slightly ambiguous, there's no way to determine it objectively.

I think FFG made a conscious choice early on not to involve measuring at any higher level of precision than that, and I expect they'll stick with that for the remainder of the games lifetime.

2 minutes ago, MacchuWA said:

AFAIK, there're no references anywhere in the game to "the closest ship", because there's no way, using the equipment you get with the core set, to measure anything more precisely than range 1, 2 or 3. Therefore, I situations where the closest ship is even slightly ambiguous, there's no way to determine it objectively.

I think FFG made a conscious choice early on not to involve measuring at any higher level of precision than that, and I expect they'll stick with that for the remainder of the games lifetime.

Once per round, before a friendly bomb token is removed at the end of the activation phase choose 1 ship at range 1 of the bomb token, that ship receives one damage. Or, after a friendly bomb token is overlapped by a ship, that ship suffers 1 damage in addition to the effects of the bomb.

It's quite wordy, but covers all bases.

And interesting thought: The first time each round before a friendly bomb token detonates, deal 1 damage to one enemy ship overlapping that token.

Fairly subtle changes - you no longer have the choice of when to trigger her.

You no longer have the option of ignoring friendly ships if they're the only ones satisfying the condition.

You no longer have a massive bubble of area to choose from; you have to pick someone who was actually touching the token.

She gets a LOT harder to use, and a lot harder to deal splash damage with.

Especially makes "on reveal" bombs much more difficult to boost. They're not the strongest bombs at the moment (those would be the action bombs), but it would knock the power level another peg lower.

That is a bit of an issue.

The goal would of course be to bump down the power level she applies to conners and clusters without doing too much to ions and seismics.

But then, as noted upthread I'd like to see any nerf to Sabine accompanied by adding a stress to Advanced SLAM, thus neatly sidestepping the issue of nerfing action bombs enough. I think only being able to SLAM effectively every other round would be a solid way to bring them down into sane levels.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

And interesting thought: The first time each round before a friendly bomb token detonates, deal 1 damage to one enemy ship overlapping that token.

Fairly subtle changes - you no longer have the choice of when to trigger her.

You no longer have the option of ignoring friendly ships if they're the only ones satisfying the condition.

You no longer have a massive bubble of area to choose from; you have to pick someone who was actually touching the token.

She gets a LOT harder to use, and a lot harder to deal splash damage with.

This is a grand example of the discussion I was looking for (there has been others too). It's like the spirit of the most recent FAQ, to pull the reign back a bit on powerful cards that are just "point and click" kinda power that is at the peak of the Meta. I love Sabine and want to use her and I don't think my ideas were going to kill her at all. Sabine should be a neat cog in a great machine, not an auto-damage stick that goes way beyond her pay-grade....so to speak.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

That is a bit of an issue.

The goal would of course be to bump down the power level she applies to conners and clusters without doing too much to ions and seismics.

But then, as noted upthread I'd like to see any nerf to Sabine accompanied by adding a stress to Advanced SLAM, thus neatly sidestepping the issue of nerfing action bombs enough. I think only being able to SLAM effectively every other round would be a solid way to bring them down into sane levels.

They'd still be able to slam as you dial in a 2 straight (Green) then clear your stress. then Slam and stay stressed. People would just stick chopper crew on Miranda and still carry on regardless with Sabine on something else. its not too much of an issue using Chopper crew on a regen ship.

I think slam is fine how it is, i also think Sabine is fine how she is but then i love sticking trolling lists together just for giggles (i love Ion and Tractor beams but have no Quad Jumper yet )

Yup, but it would mean you couldn't do the 2-turn>2-turn spin round, and you couldn't do the 3-speed>3-bank 'bomb anything that has the temerity to have stopped moving in your arc' trick.

I'm not looking to turn SLAM off completely, I'm looking to make it more counterable by making it a meaningful tactical choice on a basis longer than 'can I drop a bomb on him right now?' I'm looking to make it have a long-term impact on the progression of the game the same way k turns do, the same way PTL/EI do, etc. I'm looking to make it MUCH harder for Miranda to arc dodge.

I'm looking to turn down the power level on it just a little bit, enough to limit its effectiveness in bombing, whilst not outright killing it as some people have suggested (e..g making ASLAM action bar only).

She doesn't really need a nerf. But if one were to nerf her, It can be a RNG nerf because anything with instant damage is not fun:

"Choose a ship at range 1 and roll 1 red die. That ship suffers any damage or critical damage rolled."

Now it's a 50/50, but can also cause crit damage.

But really, I think she is fine because bombs without control like ions and thermals and conners are weak without her. I remember dropping two proximity mines with Deathrain way back and did zero damage on Dash. Sucks big time when that happens.

22 minutes ago, wurms said:

"Choose a ship at range 1 and roll 1 red die. That ship suffers any damage or critical damage rolled."

Now it's a 50/50, but can also cause crit damage.

Why not just word it like Cluster Mines so it's just "damage" on hit/crit rolled?

10 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

Why not just word it like Cluster Mines so it's just "damage" on hit/crit rolled?

I figured nerfing her from instant damage to RNG, should at least give something back more than 50/50. A possible two damage with direct hit, or something. Then maybe there wont be riots in the streets from Sabine fanboys, and instant damage is gone to stop the whiners. That was my thoughts.

1 minute ago, wurms said:

I figured nerfing her from instant damage to RNG, should at least give something back more than 50/50. A possible two damage with direct hit, or something. Then maybe there wont be riots in the streets from Sabine fanboys, and instant damage is gone to stop the whiners. That was my thoughts.

I don't really see adding the possibility of a Direct Hit! on top of any bomb effect as something players complaining about Sabine would want. Yes, I know it's 1/8, but "You don't like the extra damage? Here, have some more extra damage" doesn't seem like the right answer.