4 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

FFG: please no.

Either roll this back or repeal the one tool rule for squadron movement please. Right now if I want to move my squadrons with precision I can do that via triangulation, but I'll warn you right now that all of my games at worlds are going to time out around turn 3-4 if you make me move squadrons this way.

This is just punishing for no reason. I totally get why the hand on squad rule works to prevent fiddling, but the reason for the fiddling was the one tool rule. Now if you can neither fiddle nor use more than one tool, you actually have to do all the precision measurement for every single squadron or leave a token at the starting point to re-measure over and over and over without removing the hand from the squad.

This seems really well intentioned. In reality it's going to add 45+ min to the squadron phase if you play it RAW or lead to rage induced table flips.

And God forbid something gets bumped.

Yeah, I agree, I'm not sold on this. I get why it's there, but... Yeah, this is gonna drag squadron play waaaaaay out if people actually do this.

I expect that the declare-your-intentions convention will prevail in most cases.

I guess I don't really see how this stops the shuffle. Maybe what I consider the shuffle isn't what you guys consider?

1. Pick up squadron.

2. Move along ruler to range x

3. Keep hand on squadron and pick up ruler.

4. Measure distance 1 to intended target

5. Shuffle squadron back

34 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

FFG: please no.

Either roll this back or repeal the one tool rule for squadron movement please. Right now if I want to move my squadrons with precision I can do that via triangulation, but I'll warn you right now that all of my games at worlds are going to time out around turn 3-4 if you make me move squadrons this way.

This is just punishing for no reason. I totally get why the hand on squad rule works to prevent fiddling, but the reason for the fiddling was the one tool rule. Now if you can neither fiddle nor use more than one tool, you actually have to do all the precision measurement for every single squadron or leave a token at the starting point to re-measure over and over and over without removing the hand from the squad.

This seems really well intentioned. In reality it's going to add 45+ min to the squadron phase if you play it RAW or lead to rage induced table flips.

And God forbid something gets bumped.

I don't live in that reality. I really don't see the issue here. This is basically how i have seen it played since day one and I don't see many games go to time.

Just now, WuFame said:

I guess I don't really see how this stops the shuffle. Maybe what I consider the shuffle isn't what you guys consider?

1. Pick up squadron.

2. Move along ruler to range x

3. Keep hand on squadron and pick up ruler.

4. Measure distance 1 to intended target

5. Shuffle squadron back

Thank you. This is exactly correct. How is that process adding 45 minutes to your games? It should be cutting time out as it should all go way quicker now if you were doing a bunch of premeasuring.

30 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yeah, I agree, I'm not sold on this. I get why it's there, but... Yeah, this is gonna drag squadron play waaaaaay out if people actually do this.

I expect that the declare-your-intentions convention will prevail in most cases.

Okay, I have to kind of back off a little bit here after going back and rereading the text.

This is just checkers style rules. Move the ship, then as long as you have a bit of extra movement room, pick up the ruler and make sure it's were you want it to be. But once you take your hand off, that's it, no take backsies.

If it's interpreted as "leave it where it first touches the mat," that's another thing, and a bigger deal.

yeah, I don't understand the reasoning behind this. At least make tools that could make our lives easier. I just ordered custom range tools for the game, but I wouldn't even be able to use them in non-casual tournaments

Is this a range guessing contest?

I whine all the time about how Golem Arcana was a fiasco, but at least you could never do illegal moves and whatnot because the App kept checking your stuff.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

Okay, I have to kind of back off a little bit here after going back and rereading the text.

This is just checkers style rules. Move the ship, then as long as you have a bit of extra movement room, pick up the ruler and make sure it's were you want it to be. But once you take your hand off, that's it, no take backsies.

If it's interpreted as "leave it where it first touches the mat," that's another thing, and a bigger deal.

Why the hell would that be how it's interpreted? The text literally says, you can measure distance and range while moving squadrons. This ruling is PRO-shuffle, you just can't remove your hand from the squadron.

Maybe it is a puzzle for us to answer...

We must frame all FAQing questions with regards to this Tournament Ruling.

"Ok then if I place the squad...If it comes out of a Rapid Launch Bay...Can it then shoot?"

As for Vassal, maybe just make a collective Vassal house rule that it doesn't count? Some things don't translate to the digital world, and the idea of hands I think are one of those things (maybe not for long though). I feel like that's the reasonable conclusion to this ruling.

4 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Okay, I have to kind of back off a little bit here after going back and rereading the text.

This is just checkers style rules. Move the ship, then as long as you have a bit of extra movement room, pick up the ruler and make sure it's were you want it to be. But once you take your hand off, that's it, no take backsies.

If it's interpreted as "leave it where it first touches the mat," that's another thing, and a bigger deal.

So hmmm, I guess the overall rule is that "once you drop your squadron and leave it there, you can't measure again and move it again" ?

Just now, CaribbeanNinja said:

Maybe it is a puzzle for us to answer...

We must frame all FAQing questions with regards to this Tournament Ruling.

"Ok then if I place the squad...If it comes out of a Rapid Launch Bay...Can it then shoot?"

Brilliant!

2 minutes ago, WuFame said:

Why the hell would that be how it's interpreted? The text literally says, you can measure distance and range while moving squadrons. This ruling is PRO-shuffle, you just can't remove your hand from the squadron.

If you're dumb and read it wrong the first time cause you're juggling a baby, like me...

You need three babies to juggle properly, get to work, buddy.

Just now, WuFame said:

You need three babies to juggle properly, get to work, buddy.

In all seriousness what this really does is double down for the experienced. Not sure if it is a good thing long term for Organized Play.

I just want it to be consistent. Either everybody shuffles or nobody does. It can't be one of these nebulous Michael Gernes rulings where sometimes it's yes and sometimes it's no. I feel like this is a step in the right direction.

11 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Okay, I have to kind of back off a little bit here after going back and rereading the text.

This is just checkers style rules. Move the ship, then as long as you have a bit of extra movement room, pick up the ruler and make sure it's were you want it to be. But once you take your hand off, that's it, no take backsies.

If it's interpreted as "leave it where it first touches the mat," that's another thing, and a bigger deal.

It's all good if you need to check only 1 range. Now imagine the situation: I want to be in range 1 of this squad but not in range 1 of that squad. And in the process of doing that - how do you verify that you didn't exceed your maximum movement range? Or if the squadron doesn't fit and I want to move it in a different place, how do i do that, given that the original position of the squadron is already lost?

This is a rule created out of good intentions but is something that can't be adhered to without ending up in a clusterdebate or an essentially luck-dependent placement.

(*Rant mode on * And an the same time you can't avoid the rules by playing squadronless fleets. Brilliant. *Rant mode off*)

1 minute ago, pt106 said:

It's all good if you need to check only 1 range. Now imagine the situation: I want to be in range 1 of this squad but not in range 1 of that squad. And in the process of doing that - how do you verify that you didn't exceed your maximum movement range? Or if the squadron doesn't fit and I want to move it in a different place, how do i do that, given that the original position of the squadron is already lost?

This is a rule created out of good intentions but is something that can't be adhered to without ending up in a clusterdebate or an essentially luck-dependent placement.

(*Rant mode on * And an the same time you can't avoid the rules by playing squadronless fleets. Brilliant. *Rant mode off*)

I get what you're saying, but that's kind of just an artifact of how squadron play works, regardless of this rule. For what it's worth, this is how I currently play it for the most part anyway, and it's really not that bad.

That said, a distance 1 ruler should really be in the core set, and is sort of mandatory for efficient squadron play.

The only time I've ever seen the shuffle in action is when a squadron can clearly be in range 1 of all targets involved, then the squadron shuffles backward in the direction it came to be in desired distance of x, y, and z. Just move the maximum distance along the path and shuffle back. If someone you are playing shuffles forwards, call BS.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

I get what you're saying, but that's kind of just an artifact of how squadron play works, regardless of this rule. For what it's worth, this is how I currently play it for the most part anyway, and it's really not that bad.

That said, a distance 1 ruler should really be in the core set, and is sort of mandatory for efficient squadron play.

Not only that but the one-tool rule should be suspended during the movement, so one tool can be on the table showing max distance (and allowing the squadron to go back to a starting place) and range one ruler can be used as a real one-tool to fine-tune the placement of the squadron.

The squadron shuffle, in my opinion, is way way less egregious than these Jersey Inch jerks who jump their X-wings to distance 3.5 while holding the tool way higher than needed. Oh look at that. When this ruler is right in front of my eye the entire table is in distance 3.

1 minute ago, WuFame said:

The only time I've ever seen the shuffle in action is when a squadron can clearly be in range 1 of all targets involved, then the squadron shuffles backward in the direction it came to be in desired distance of x, y, and z. Just move the maximum distance along the path and shuffle back. If someone you are playing shuffles forwards, call BS.

Did you ever tried to attack someone while avoiding their escort/engage a squad to lock it while trying to avoid their intel?

4 minutes ago, pt106 said:

Did you ever tried to attack someone while avoiding their escort/engage a squad to lock it while trying to avoid their intel?

Yes, I haven't been to one tournament where my squadron detachment wasn't within 90% of maximum. I have literally NEVER shuffled forwards. I drop my squadron well within it's range, then shuffle back or sideways where I need it. Communication never hurt either. Just tell your opponent what you are doing, prove the desires location or area is in range, and shuffle. Maybe I've been lucky, but I refuse to believe my opponents can't accurately agree a specific area of the board is well within range. If it's not well within range, then you may just not be able to get your desired perfect shot.

I mean, I feel we can agree it's not hard to eyeball a good square inch where your desired perfect shot resides in. Prove that square inch is in range, then shuffle around in it. I mean, I'd also be fine with just doing away with the one tool rule like you are suggesting during squadron movement. Honestly, the squadron itself is very obviously standing in as a token while it's being shuffled, so the one tool rule is pointless here anyway.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Squadron Movement To move a squadron, its owner proceeds through the following steps:

1. Determine Course: Place the range ruler flat on the table with the distance side faceup. The center of the distance 1 end of the ruler must be in contact with the squadron’s base.

2. Move Squadron: Pick up the squadron and position it anywhere along the center of the ruler up to the line that marks the end of the distance band matching the squadron’s speed value. The squadron’s base cannot be placed beyond that line. Then remove the range ruler and place the squadron in the final position.

• A squadron cannot be placed with any part of its base overlapping another squadron or ship.

• A squadron can move through ships, squadrons, and obstacles without issue. Only its starting and final positions matter.

• If the range ruler cannot be placed in the play area due to other ships and squadrons being in the way, hold the range ruler above the play area and estimate the squadron’s final position.

• When a squadron moves, it can choose to remain in its current position and is still considered to have moved.

You have to have the ruler on the mat or hovering. And this new tourny reg says "Players may measure distance and/or range while moving squadrons." and we already have a timing for While: A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

It's just a redundant rule. Measuring while moving goes against the RRG since the tool must be touching the squads base, and you can still only have 1 tool at a time.

Otherwise, how can you touch the tool to the base and still measure range 1 to check engagement while moving? That goes against everything FFG has tried to set in place in regards to squadron movement and multiple tools.