Quote
Players may measure distance and/or range while moving squadrons. Once a player removes his or her hand from a squadron in a new position, the squadron is considered to have moved and cannot move any further during that activation.
It's not a FAQ, but it is a bit of meat in the new Tournament Rules updated today. It is the only major red text.
PS: still no FAQ.
Edited by BiggsIRLIn Vassal terms - Once you start moving the squadron, this is it, you have one shot. Better hope you have eyed it in right.
So it's effectively chess movement then? Just making sure how this all works, let me bring up a specific example from Adepticon last weekend.
The guy says "I want to move X to here, max distance range 1." As of now, he can declare this, he can desire this, but he still has to move to the closest point he can, but then once it's moved it's moved. No more touching, no more adjusting (he didn't, but!), and it's stuck wherever he lands it, even if it engaged an extra squadron or whatever?
As long as you can use a measuring ruler with one hand it shouldn't really make that much difference... And just don't take your finger off the squadron until you're sure it's where you want it!
This seems like a very fiddly rule change.
Yeah, basically chess rules. Don't put the darn squadron down until you're sure that is where you want it to be. Because once you do put it down, it's down, even if it isn't at Range 1 of what you want it to be at Range 1 of.
Alternatively, don't pick something up unless you want to move it, because once you move it it's committed.
I mean, I'm personally excited since it's pretty much how I've always played. I always got a little bit frustrated with even the concept of the :measurement: -> :nudge: -> :measurement: -> :nudge: style of getting the squadrons JUST SO.
Just now, geek19 said:So it's effectively chess movement then? Just making sure how this all works, let me bring up a specific example from Adepticon last weekend.
The guy says "I want to move X to here, max distance range 1." As of now, he can declare this, he can desire this, but he still has to move to the closest point he can, but then once it's moved it's moved. No more touching, no more adjusting (he didn't, but!), and it's stuck wherever he lands it, even if it engaged an extra squadron or whatever?
Your interpretation is correct, I believe. You can declare what you want all you like, but once your hand is off the squadron it's committed to its position regardless of whether it meets the standards of your declaration. Given you need to put the range ruler down to measure the maximum movement potential of the squadron compared to its starting position while you're moving it, you can't also use an additional distance ruler (or pick up the first one as it needs to be used to ensure it's a legal move) to check for maximum engagement range, either, as that would be breaking the one-tool rule. TL;DR: you can premeasure all you like and eyeball it, but you need to drop that squadron somewhere and hopefully it's where you like. Being clever and trying to deploy at maximum engagement range may turn out to bite you in the arse, so be careful.
What I'm curious about is what exactly you're supposed to do if someone is trying to move a squadron to a point where they actually won't fit. Sometimes it's not 100% clear if a squadron can land somewhere and trying to move it there creates a weird quantum state where what to do exactly if it doesn't fit isn't clear. I suppose so long as you have the range ruler clearly on the table to show its start position, you can go back and try again, but if that range ruler gets bumped or moved, you're in a weird spot...
4 minutes ago, Snipafist said:What I'm curious about is what exactly you're supposed to do if someone is trying to move a squadron to a point where they actually won't fit. Sometimes it's not 100% clear if a squadron can land somewhere and trying to move it there creates a weird quantum state where what to do exactly if it doesn't fit isn't clear. I suppose so long as you have the range ruler clearly on the table to show its start position, you can go back and try again, but if that range ruler gets bumped or moved, you're in a weird spot...
As Jeremy Paxman would say, theyve started, so theyll have to finish.
"How about a nice game of Chess?"
what if I pick a squadron up, change my mind and put it back down? Since it's not a "new" position, does it count as being movement?
1 minute ago, Sybreed said:what if I pick a squadron up, change my mind and put it back down? Since it's not a "new" position, does it count as being movement?
Yup
Just now, Ginkapo said:Yup
ohhh boy.
Well, I don't think I do that THAT often, but it's good to know that I can't
Boo. Hiss.
43 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:In Vassal terms - Once you start moving the squadron, this is it, you have one shot. Better hope you have eyed it in right.
The guide says:
"Players may measure distance and/or range while moving squadrons. Once a player removes his or her hand from a squadron in a new position, the squadron is considered to have moved and cannot move any further during that activation."
In Vassal, how are we able to measure while moving at the same time?
36 minutes ago, Snipafist said:Your interpretation is correct, I believe. You can declare what you want all you like, but once your hand is off the squadron it's committed to its position regardless of whether it meets the standards of your declaration. Given you need to put the range ruler down to measure the maximum movement potential of the squadron compared to its starting position while you're moving it, you can't also use an additional distance ruler (or pick up the first one as it needs to be used to ensure it's a legal move) to check for maximum engagement range, either, as that would be breaking the one-tool rule. TL;DR: you can premeasure all you like and eyeball it, but you need to drop that squadron somewhere and hopefully it's where you like. Being clever and trying to deploy at maximum engagement range may turn out to bite you in the arse, so be careful.
What I'm curious about is what exactly you're supposed to do if someone is trying to move a squadron to a point where they actually won't fit. Sometimes it's not 100% clear if a squadron can land somewhere and trying to move it there creates a weird quantum state where what to do exactly if it doesn't fit isn't clear. I suppose so long as you have the range ruler clearly on the table to show its start position, you can go back and try again, but if that range ruler gets bumped or moved, you're in a weird spot...
I'd say don't be the **** who causes that drama.
I'm all fine with abiding to the rules, but in cases like that, both players need to come to some agreement in a gentlemanly order.
Just now, Stasy said:I'd say don't be the **** who causes that drama.
I'm all fine with abiding to the rules, but in cases like that, both players need to come to some agreement in a gentlemanly order.
I mean so long as the distance ruler was placed at the starting position of the squadron and held there, I have no problems with allowing it to return to its starting position and try again (and there's no reason to release it as the moving player, either). If it looks iffy I'm sure the two players can come to some kind of understanding as to what's going on and how to manage it prior to the move being attempted. The problem is the tournament PDF offers us no guidance in this matter so if there's a disagreement, resolving it could be difficult.
Good.
I realize that this causes some issues, but the degree of hemming and hawwing over millimeters is one of the key reasons games take so long when large groups of squads are in play. If you aren't sure if or where you should move it, leave it in place.
Hopefully this will speed some games up and also lead to a slightly less safe squadron environment.
Edited by thecactusman17Query, with the way it's worded would you not just be able to hold the squadron and measure with the other hand. Like I understand it would be a bit more difficult if you're pushing the limits of your movement, but say I'm well within my movement could you not just establish I can move anywhere in this general area and then just hold the squadron and measure with the one hand till your happy?
12 minutes ago, Captain Weather said:Query, with the way it's worded would you not just be able to hold the squadron and measure with the other hand. Like I understand it would be a bit more difficult if you're pushing the limits of your movement, but say I'm well within my movement could you not just establish I can move anywhere in this general area and then just hold the squadron and measure with the one hand till your happy?
Imo the way its worded this is exactly what will happen. And will lead to argument when at the far range of a squads movement.
I reiterate, boo. Boo and hiss.
1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:Yup
Hoo boy, there's some potential for shenanigans there. Your hand accidentally brushed squadron B as you went to pick up squadron A? Yeah, you just activated squadron B!
FFG: please no.
Either roll this back or repeal the one tool rule for squadron movement please. Right now if I want to move my squadrons with precision I can do that via triangulation, but I'll warn you right now that all of my games at worlds are going to time out around turn 3-4 if you make me move squadrons this way.
This is just punishing for no reason. I totally get why the hand on squad rule works to prevent fiddling, but the reason for the fiddling was the one tool rule. Now if you can neither fiddle nor use more than one tool, you actually have to do all the precision measurement for every single squadron or leave a token at the starting point to re-measure over and over and over without removing the hand from the squad.
This seems really well intentioned. In reality it's going to add 45+ min to the squadron phase if you play it RAW or lead to rage induced table flips.
And God forbid something gets bumped.
1 hour ago, itzSteve said:The guide says:
"Players may measure distance and/or range while moving squadrons. Once a player removes his or her hand from a squadron in a new position, the squadron is considered to have moved and cannot move any further during that activation."
In Vassal, how are we able to measure while moving at the same time?
Whilst clicking and dragging a squadron band stays in place.
Measure distance 1 of all relevant squads. Then be brave and move.
Just now, Reinholt said:leave a token at the starting point
Thats a tool.