I've played about 8 games now and 5 of those games resulted in someone sitting on the Crown of Command for over an HOUR before we eventually died, mostly from boredom. It's gottten to the point that the CoC is being ignored entirely and we are just going to pvp each other to death instead.

Has anyone tried any house rules to make the CoC matter more? As soon as you get someone with the Poltergiest or always having a spell and they start cycling through the spell deck, the game stalls to a halt for the character that should have been the winner.

A few things we are going to try:

1) When you cast the command spell and a Character is supposed to lose a life, they lose 1 life for each Talisman you have instead.
2) Once someone hits the CoC, you have 10 tuns to get to the Inner Region before you lose the game. If you are in the Outer or Middle after the 10th turn, your dead.

Still love the game with a passion, but something has to be done.

Hi Talismania,

I hate the crown of command ending too.

It's a very boring ending, unless you are fighting each other.

Luckily, the Frostmarch expansion, has a new ending, that;s called ( Crown and Scepter.

This is a good replacement, to put a end to the bore Crown of Command.

A other solution is that a player may not heal all the time (turn after turn etc)

He must also try to draw adventure cards. ( otherwise the game will never end.

Expect more Alternative Ending cards with the release of new expansion sets! We already have some of these cards now!

Ell.

Frostmarch have alternate endings that pretty much all make the game Sudden Death (first to Crown wins). I don't like them for just that reason. I love the end game, but could be we play differently. Are you guys not trying to get to the CoC after someone reaches it? Around here, there is always the end-game rush with everyone hightailing it toward the Crown (if they are in a position to challenge the current char there in combat). Often this results in tense closing stages as a tougher character is closing in on the person at the Crown, who desperately tries to zap Command Spells to kill the others before they can reach him.

I think the Poltergeist has been drawn exactly once during the end-game in the 80 of R4th I've played. Granted, when I upgraded my BI edition, I bought the Reaper expansion at the same time, so the Adventure deck has been hefty from game 1. Now with Dungeon and Frostmarch in the mix, 1 Poltergeist in what 288 cards? Most of the time, we don't even see half the cards in the Adventure deck anyways, since the game ends befofe that.

talismanamsilat said:

Hi Elliot,

I hope that the Danse Macabre ending is included in that expansion.

There are people who want a real ending card, instead of a downloading card..

Dam said:

Hi Dam,

For me, nothing is wrong with a climactic battle between players, but the Crown of Command is just a bore ending, because of rolling a die to hit your opponents.

Maybe that FFG can make a ending that is interesting enough for the player on the (crown space) and that the other opponents can still try to catch up, if they can stay alive..

Velhart said:

Hey, Command Spell > normal combat, because at least you're not risking to get hit back (apart from Reflection) .

Velhart said:

It also depends on the players. Some (like us) go for the Crown once someone reaches it, others claim the game takes too long when they spend 2+ hours first boosting their characters, then maybe thinking about going for the Crown. If I'm the one of the Crown of Command, I have plenty of interest, because I'm in the best position to win, hence each die roll I make is important to me.

I must admit I really do not see the problem. In the games i have played so far two things tend to happen;

1) First character to the Crown of Command spells everyone to death,

2) Someone catches up to the Crown of Command and PvP occur, making it all more exciting.

Of course, if people are just walking around in the outer, middle region visiting the doctor/castle they can stay alive for quite some time. Doing so there will be a problem, but again boring, so why do so?

Me, myself and I are hoping that the current solution of the Crown and Command space is just a current solution untill (hopefully (!) ) a tower exspansion will be presented!

There are two fallacies being constantly spread on this particular issue.

1. Anyone on the CoC should automatically be able to kill everyone else easily.
2. Anyone not on the CoC should automatically start losing some or all advantages, because somehow the Crown has gained even more power to alter the Land than is written into the rules.

For those who want everyone else to die easily, the answer is simple rather than using the other people like ducks in shooting gallery that can't shoot back (THAT'S BORING).

The first to reach the CoC has the crown (if no other endings are used) and may cast the Command Spell. All other adventurers have one round to get into the Inner Region. If no one else makes it into the Inner Region, then the one on the CoC is automatically the winner. (If no one can make it by then, odds are high that no one ever will.) The result of this approach is exactly the same as kicking up the power of the Command Spell to a ridiculous level... and it works without exploitation and boredom of futility that everyone else has to put up with.

If you want to continue the slog anyway, but want to limit other players form continuously using resources to extend the game...

• allow the Command spell to attack an adventurerer OR
• remove any one card in play from the game which does not go back into the discard pile, thereby the CoC weilder to sacrifice attacking with Command in favor of removing a card on the board that's being used OR
• Cast the Command spell as normal, but instead of Life lost by the target, a Follower, Magic Object, or Object is destroyed and removed from the game.

Frankly, these whittling down alternatives aren't much better, but I've seen two groups use them as a compromise between the boredom of the kill all options like the Scepter and tediousness of the traditional CoC. And yet still, half those on the board will usually forfeit at some point and not bother continuing.

It only took a few games for my gaming group to realize how boring and annoying the Crown of Command ending was, so we devised this house rule:

" Being in control of the Crown of Command space, using the default ending to the game, can be ludicrously boring, since all the player gets to do is a roll 1 die and their turn is over. No skill or ingenuity is required; it all comes down to a simple die roll and the player does not even need to be present since they can just make a dozen die rolls in advance and go watch television. So, the house rule has been added so that any player in control of the Crown of Command also gets to draw a spell card which they can use, with the following stipulations:

o The die roll for the crown goes first, followed by drawing a spell card.

o If the spell is not one that the player can make use of right then, then the spell is discarded.

The player can still make use of spells that state that they must be used at the beginning of the player’s turn or before they move."

But by now, we have 12 alternate endings that are randomly drawn (4 official ones, 2 remakes of 2nd edition endings and 6 that I made up).

Talismania... as you can see, we feel your pain. Some of use have been playing Talisman for 20 years solid or on and off. You can imagine what we think of that one stock ending by now. Fortunately, as others have pointed out, there are alternative endings... so ****** them up for random draw by the first to reach the CoC... or by choice, everyone deciding what ending will be played before the game begins.

Personally, I recommend the Warlock Quests (with the commercial quests or others). It changes the game itself a little and can be combined with just about any alternate ending as well. Refreshing.

ASIDE: you've also discovered the glitch of the Poltergeist that was never fixed. Once you realize how to use it, or are powerful enough to survive any bad 1 space movement choices, it can be an excess advantage once you position yourself correctly (and that ain't hard even with completely random movement). My advice... pull it, dump it, and don't use it anymore if it is being abused. It's no great loss, trust me.

I don't understand the OP's problem. Once someone is on CoC, the rest of the players should be trying to get there too.

If players are intentionally stretching out the game without any interest in making an end run, then they are just trying to subvert the game out of spite. A player who takes such a strategy is thinking "hey, I can't win this, but I can stretch this game out forever, and stop anyone else from winning. Aren't I so clever!' I'm not sure how sustainable that strategy is anyway, eventually you are going to run out of life or money for healing. A player like that is kind of like the chess player who only has a King, but he refuses to admit defeat, and he just keeps moving his King back and forth between checks. Players like that are annoying and sore losers, and you shouldn't play with them.

If, on the other hand, the player has an objective, and he's just trying to buy some time to gear up for his end run, I would call such a player very cunning.

The Poltergeist is generally a disadvantageous follower, but a skillful player can use it to his advantage. What's the problem?

I've never played with more than 3 players though. I guess I could see where the end game does get a little stretched out with 4+ players. In a game with a lot of players, a smart strategy might be to let the other players duke it out on the Crown of Command, and then make their own end run after the other players have been severely weakened or killed?

Lars Gnomish said:

If the CoC holder can't win by the rules, why should others give up playing by the rules to let him or her? Please! And until they lose by the rules they aren't losers (nor cheaters, poor-sports, or any other pointless and logicless label). If you want to suggest a counterpoint way to solve the situation, at least don't be hypocritical or self-contradictory... transparently so. You've tried this argument before, and it has never held up.

If someone can hold off the inevitable (which means it isnt inevitable), can keep someone else from claiming victory, it is called a stalemate, by tradition. It exists in many, many, many games; in fact with good players in games of strategy or balanced strategy/luck, it happens quite often. In full luck based games, it still happens and there's no way to control it; in some that are excessively random, it happens almost as often as strategy games with good players. And 4ER is tilted more random that other editions (not much, but noticably when one looks back to the expansion and growth of previous editions)/

And I've seen stalemates in games of 2 or 3 players more often that you imply... if the players know how to work the game and the odds. Not often, but notably.

My counterpoint to the CoC holder who can't get me is "too bad [insert rude gesture]... come out of the CoC and face me with a bit of spine, you gutless pretender with a toy!" Then maybe I'll catapult a cow at him.

If players can't face that as built into the game, then change the rules. But that is what we are talking about here... not an assumption as to why players won't step into the open to be ducks in someone else's shooting gallery. And this isn't the only problem with the game's standard endgame.

Oh, and Talismania, don't forget the other joke in Talisman:. Alignment. Because everyone who takes the CoC instantly should become Evil... as a sociopathic serial killer. Imagine what that would do to some of the standard characters if someone catches up to them in the CoC. A few should certainly be stripped of special abilities. But there it is.

JCHendee: your points are well-taken, and I think that, if anything, they reiterate that the CoC is not 'a joke'. It's part of the game's appeal that there is more to it than just being the first to reach the Crown. I find it's quite exciting when one player seems to be out so far ahead of the rest, but he manages to lose while sitting on the Crown.

I think the end would be terribly anti-climatic if it ended as soon as someone reached the Crown.

Re: alignment, it would be interesting to house rule an alternative ending for Good-aligned characters so that they don't have to kill other players. Maybe they have to destroy the crown of command instead? The crown could have 5 life points, and the Good aligned character can only strike it on a roll of 4, 5 or 6, but if he fails, he takes damage himself. I don't know... just a thought.

A good ending is something that comes from the story itself - same for a game. So long as everyone knows ahead of time how the ending will be handled, its still the ending and everyone should have satisfaction. Drawn out endings that have little to no connection with the game play that led up to it or little more than hyper-extension of godly PvP (CvC) are what I find the most boring. So my own viewpoint is colored by this, and why the standand CoC ending was abandoned over a decade ago.

You idea concerning alignment based endings is something people have talked about before. Problem is, how do we handle Neutral... and how do we make sure all Alignments have an equal challenge in succeeding at differing end games? This is probably why the most created / played endings are the uber-Enemies (like a video-game end-boss), aside from the uber-Magic Object (most of them simply a variation on the CoC). The least played are the uber-Events (like the Horrible Black Void) because they don't involve DOING anything or are just some creators juvenile joke.

But if you've got a notion for how to do the Alignment ending... do share!!! They only Alignment play I've seen were team games, which of course require 4+ players to do Good vs Evil, or 6+ to do all three alignments.

Back to Talisman this week, first play of 2010. Warlock Quests ending got picked. Ogre Chieftain vs Amazon vs Priest. Not too hard a challenge for the Ogre based on character draw and the only really nasty Quest was "Defeat the Sentinel" for the Priest. Still, with Replacing Quests Variant in use, he didn't eventually need to go for it. Amazon died mid-game, to a Goblin Trapsmith (yep, Str 1 Enemy) . Mind you, since the game lasted 45 minutes, mid-game is 20 minutes in.

In the end, Ogre completed his Quests first, then hit the Inner Region. Str 9 proved not enough, as he rolled 15 at Crypt, bounced to the City Turn later however, he was back at the Plain of Peril, thanks to defeating the Lord of the Pit in battle, which also gained him +1 Str. Crypt, DwD and Werewolf all fell. Then an instance that in a normal game would have swung the fortunes quite a bit, Monk (Amazon's replacement) drew Demigod. In a CoC ending game, Transference is a no-brainer when someone is two moves away from the Crown of Command space. With the Warlock Quests ending however, it would've been useless, since Monk didn't have enough time to get to the Inner Region and then get another turn in which to cast the Spell (also his stats were so-so for the Portal of Power). So he picked Random. Ogre rolls a 1, uses his starting fate point and rolls a 6. Valley of Fire, then CoC, Ogre Chieftain wins. Another anticlimactic ending, with no taking out the other players, no catch-up opportunity .

3 Players and 45 minutes? That says it all beyond the details. There's no time therein to work for anything at 15 minutes per player. And then no point to dragging things out with the traditional duck shoot.

Played again last night, 3 player game. Prophetess, Wizard, Druid. Prophetess got lucky early and pushed for the CoC, getting there about an hour in. Druid had the Poltergeist and the Chapel going,

I (the Wizard) had Fiend Slayer and the Runesword. When the Prophetess started casting The Command Spell, Druid was a 6 lives and I was at 8. I had bad stats and no way to get to the CoC any time soon, the Druid was strong enough to get to the Crown, but would likely die trying to get there.

Another hour later the Druid was still abusing the Poltergeist/Chapel and I had 9 lives due to heal spells and lucky draws with the Fiend Slayer netting me enemies for life with the Runesword. The Prophetss was ready to pull her hair out and run screaming from the game forever.

Tonight we are going to play with the following rules: when someone touches the CoC, anyone in the Outer Region is dead. End of Story. If you get teleported to the Outer Region, like via the Crypt, you are dead. Game over. This stops the Chapel, plus the middle will weed out characters not strong enough for the Crown, but still give players that might have a chance the time they might need to try to get to the CoC before the Command spell kills them. I'll let you know how it goes.

JCHendee said:

Average for 3-player is around 60 minutes, even this game would've been over before that mark with the CoC ending I think. And 45 minutes was enough for the Ogre and Priest to become Crown-ready, I don't see why the game should be dragged out by not going to the Crown at that point.

I usually play 2-3 player games and definitely like the Crown of Command.

In a majority of our games, two of the players are very close in power and once one rushes for the crown, so does the other. Nearly 75% of the time there is a very intense close dual that decides the game. The crown allows players to fight to the end instead of a lame sudden ending.

I like it because it IS Talisman. Those other endings change the game far too much. (Same reason I don't like the expansions like Dungeon...it's boring moving your chair to the end of the table so you can sit in the dungeon playing the game literally by yourself while everyone else is on the main board).

We LOVE the Reaper expansion!

In our games (2 players), the average time is between 3 a 4 hours. ( no haste)

If we are around 10+ strength, then we go to the inner region, or defeat the LOD

It happen once, that i have finish the game with the swashbuckler in 2 1/2 hour. That's pretty fast for us:)

Perhaps part of the time factor is also (1) how intensely and quickly drawn cards are being processed [ignoring anything but mechanics] and/or (2) how much socializing or even internal game oriented banter is applied as well. But I still think 15 minutes per player means the character build up is more based on freebie power ups (by whatever method) than anything else.

QUESTION: In these games, as one example of instant power ups, how often has anyone seen the "Gain 1 Craft" spells being used? Are there similar quick power ups (not just Followers or Magic Objects) coming up more than once, twice, three times per player?

I ask because we still haven't found time to test our personal copy of the Dungeon. (We played it twice a while back with a large group, someone else's copy, everyone giving it a try before deciding on buying.) My wife and I looked at those new spells and they gave us pause; we didn't remember them from the test games, and our initial reaction to yet more freebies has never been favorable. But without extensive playtesting, it's hard to say what influence any one new addition to a game really has.

JCHendee said:

Depends on the characters involved (understandably). This particular game, none of those Spells came up, though with Ogre and Amazon in the starting mix, not much spell-cycling ability either. Priest did buy a Spell of the Sorcerer Stranger and got at least one at the Temple. Overall, less than 10 Spells were used in the game. Throw in Warlock + Gypsy into a game and those Spells see multiple use. Today's game did see both Magic Stream and Fountain of Wisdom though (poor shuffling, I know ).

JCHendee said:

I have not draw the craft spel yet..

But i drew the strength spell only one time..

It's logical, because the spell deck has increase a lot, especially with the frostmarch expansion..

Got it. Thanks guys... and yes the size of the spell deck and the types of characters certainly are factors to consider.