8 hours ago, CBMarkham said:

...

I do not agree with most of the points you wrote, so just the few cents that bug me the most.

Basicly I do not think that Heroes are overpriced, issue is, that heroes are badly synergised and also, there is a stupidly undercosted Stormtrooper on Villain side, which does not have its matchh and boy just imagine how much you would be ****** up on Villain pairings without this boy for 7. Heroes have quite a lot of semi-cheap elite characters on lvl of 10-14 points, which makes them viable for interesting builds. And I like them for that. On the other hand, I really do not like to see when they release something extra pricey, as there really is not much option where you can pair 18-20 point cost characters unfortunately (Maz made some difference now fortunately).

Jyn Erso is definitely not overcosted, she is flatout the best Heroe main character in Spirit of Rebellion, her only challenger can be Maz, which is unfortunately only sidekick so their roles are totally different. Characters with passive ability has to be pricey as the give you basicly 3rd die with 100% sure outcome. Vader has discard, Luke draw, Solo has shields and Jyn resource. Of course, you can only use it on yellow events, on the other way, your opponent can not disrupt it. If you think these abilities are somehow lame or mundane, than you really underestimate them and believe me, new supports with passive abilities activating on roll of certain type of dice side are going to rock for the very same reason. Back to Jyn, we look atz character with double 2 ranged, which is on Han Solo level (as his second is paid) and than you have two discard sides for free and resource. You really can not ask for more for mill deck as the sides are perfectly selected and Jyn is the first card making the Hero mill looks promising, as it will have extra cash to get the pricey cards out, it will have damage threat, it will have consistent mill.And she is rare and not legendary.

5 hours ago, Hennessy said:

Basicly I do not think that Heroes are overpriced, issue is, that heroes are badly synergised and also, there is a stupidly undercosted Stormtrooper on Villain side, which does not have its matchh and boy just imagine how much you would be ****** up on Villain pairings without this boy for 7. Heroes have quite a lot of semi-cheap elite characters on lvl of 10-14 points, which makes them viable for interesting builds. And I like them for that.

Saying that villains are undercosted is kind of the same thing. And yes, Stormtrooper is one of the big reasons they have more character combos, however because Heroes now have an 11 elite character and a couple 12s, you won't see a 7 cost character.

Also, there's no 10 point elite characters, so I'm not sure what you meant about heroes having elites from 10-14. They have Maz, Rey, Snap, Ackbar, Mon Mothma and Padme. Most of these are support types and only way to pair an elite with 2 non-elite characters. Villians have Jabba, Kylo, Unkar, FN, and Bala-Tik. Only two are full support, and one of those is the best support character in the game. Villains also have 15 point characters that really unlock their options, especially for blue. Pair that with a 7 point character and you have plenty of good options with strong characters and 2 non-elites. This is why you see Phasma & Dooku in several of the top decks right now.

Also, you said Jyn is a rare... she's actually a legendary. But I agree, I think she's going to be really good with getting potentially 1 free resource a turn.

Going back to the Luke/Vader argument, I really don't see why Vader should only cost 1 more than Luke. His ability in this game is far better with denying a card from opponent vs drawing a card, since you draw up to 5 at the end of each round. He also gets one health and I'd argue his 2 disrupt is better than Luke's 1 focus. I've almost never used his focus side, because I want to focus his die more often than not, and it can be a waste to use lose his die to focus a weaker die. The only time I've used his focus is when I had no cards for rerolls or with All In. With Vader, there's situations his disrupt comes in handy, and can put pressure to spend their resources or deprive them if they are building up for something. Add all that with better event synergy, getting opportunities for free upgrades with Holocron, better sidekick, and you can see why Vader/Raider is a top deck and Luke/Ackbar (or Rey) just doesn't muster the same threat. I'm hoping Maz and some new cards will change that, but I'm just not seeing it. I'm disappointed the focal point of the original series is barely tournament worthy.

8 minutes ago, revhellion said:

... so I'm not sure what you meant about heroes having elites from 10-14. They have Maz, Rey, Snap, Ackbar, Mon Mothma and Padme. Most of these are support types and only way to pair an elite with 2 non-elite characters. Villians have Jabba, Kylo, Unkar, FN, and Bala-Tik. Only two are full support, and one of those is the best support character in the game.

Wait, what? I think you and I must have different definitions of "support". I don't consider a single one of those characters to be support. They're all kinda of...control/disruption, except Kylo who is just....you know....inexpensive damage? I mean....if you're talking about Jabba, he can be kind of supportish, but his die sides indicate that he'd rather be disrupting and controlling.

Also, the best support in the game was Ackbar, and now it's probably Maz, although Ackbar and Mon Mothma are fairly close behind her so it's tough to tell, because they're all super-duper top tier, support-wise.

Agree with most of your other points, though.

13 minutes ago, revhellion said:

Also, you said Jyn is a rare... she's actually a legendary.

I'm looking at a picture of her now. She's rare. Chewbacca is the legendary.

Luckily, FFG has weirdly been making the very good characters rares, and the very "meh" characters Legendary (exception of Vader). Phasma is great, Veers is better and rare. Jabba is fun, Jango is the more easily utilized. Luke is pretty good, but Rey is a super cheap, super efficient beater. Poe has fun tricks, but Ackbar gets real work done on a consistent basis. Han has extra shields, but for 2 points more than non-elite Han, you could have 18 health and 2 dice that are VERY similar to Han's die, in the form of 2 rare Hired Guns.

All and all, I feel that the Legendary cards were mostly unnecessary for Tier 1 decks in Awakenings. With the inclusion of Maz's Goggles and Force Speed, it seems very evident that FFG is working to put more pressure on us to chase legendary cards by making them cheap and efficient, not just big and flashy.

@CBMarkham Well I guess I was lumping control & support into one category, but yeah, if you take Jabba out and call him control then Ackbar, or now probably Maz, is the best support in the game.

I'm just pointing out the lack of options. If you want a 3 character/4 dice deck for heroes, you've got either Rey or some type of elite support for your strongest character. For Villians, you can also do this with Dooku or Phasma. And now adding in Ventress to this 15 point category, which just open up the options even more. Outside of yellow (surprise surprise, FFG gives more to rogue) heroes, I haven't been super impressed with new hero character options.

19 hours ago, revhellion said:

I'm just pointing out the lack of options. If you want a 3 character/4 dice deck for heroes, you've got either Rey or some type of elite support for your strongest character. For Villians, you can also do this with Dooku or Phasma.

Mostly agree with you, but don't forget about mah boy, Veeeeeeeerrrs!! Criminally underrated. That guy hits like a truck for that cost. 2x Elite dice for 14pts, both of which have two sides with 2 ranged damage that aren't pay sides?! Yes, please.

He's sooooo good.

@CBMarkham Ha! Good point, totally missed Veers, which means heroes don't even have the advantage of budget elites (sub 15 points, and I might even consider 15 villains in this category, which gives them the edge).

Dont discount Han or Poe though, as these 2 guys are the workhorses for hero tournament decks. I can't remember the last time I lost to an Ackbar focused deck with Han/Rey or Poe/Rey.

And I could have sworn when they leaked Jyn originaly her set number was in purple. Guess I was wrong.

So Hired Guns are almost as good as Han, but you're swooning over Veers and won't mention Stormtroopers?

4 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

So Hired Guns are almost as good as Han, but you're swooning over Veers and won't mention Stormtroopers?

Pound for pound, Hired Guns are much better than Han. And yes, Stormtroopers fill in holes nicely and create lots of deck options for villains, so it's very nice to have them, but Veers is in fact the character worth swooning over.

I'm not talking about filling in holes, I'm talking about the fact that two of them cost the exact same as eVeers, have 5 more health, and synergize as well or better with other red cards. It's just strange to me that you would build up Hired Guns and then rave about Veers for the exact same reason that you just dismissed Han.

I agree with @WonderWAAAGH , eJango/2x Trooper is a much better and more consistent deck than with eVeers.

This is a pretty fun discussion while we kill time until the preview event!

But in any case, outside of my Poe/Rey or Han/Rey decks, this new set is looking like I'm just going to ride with the villains until FFG can give better character combos for heroes. Here's to another 6 months of Imperial reign. Maybe they'll get it right with The Last Jedi (old Luke could be fun).

3 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I'm not talking about filling in holes, I'm talking about the fact that two of them cost the exact same as eVeers, have 5 more health, and synergize as well or better with other red cards.

They do have 5 more health, and the added benefit that you can't remove both dice from the table until you deplete all 14 health, rather than just the 9 that Veers has. That's their advantage, and it's not a meager one.

Veers on the other hand, has two dice that are far superior (the difference between the modified die and the pay die is larger than you may realize), which is often the benefit I can find myself getting the greater value out of, since it's not at all unusual for my opponents to target Veers last (because I'm actively making Bala scary, while making Nightsister a more tempting target through the use of Enrage, Cannon Fodder, and her ability).

The difference between Veers and 2x Stormtrooper kind of depends on what role you need filled and what you want them to do, and I like the cheap efficient damage, so I'm pretty Veers crazy. That said, Stormtroopers are also pretty nice, although most of their value comes from their 7pt cost, because that 1pt deviation from standard generic characters cracks open a whole additional layer of options for list building.

Right, you bring up the non-pay side as a selling point; Hired Guns have twice as many pay sides as Han.

If we're talking about your specific deck, I'd say 'troopers have a lot more going for them: Cannon Fodder, Flank, and He Doesn't Like You get as much benefit or more from having additional characters on the table, they open the door to options like Squad Tactics and the odd late game Endless Ranks, and you get a lot more room to maneuver your redeployable weapons around.

My point is that it's hard (or maybe just unfair) to say that Han is worse than Hired Guns without acknowledging that the same is probably true of Veers and 'troopers.

5 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Right, you bring up the non-pay side as a selling point; Hired Guns have twice as many pay sides as Han.

If we're talking about your specific deck, I'd say 'troopers have a lot more going for them: Cannon Fodder, Flank, and He Doesn't Like You get as much benefit or more from having additional characters on the table, and they open the door to options like Squad Tactics and the odd late game Endless Ranks.

You're not wrong about Han and the paysides. I like a non-pay 2 way better than a pay-3, and a non-pay 1 better than a pay-2, so yeah, a Han die is better than a Hired Gun die, but also, so much more expensive, since you're paying for an ability that you can't leverage at the beginning of the game, if they're attacking your other character first (the new card "Strength" will help with that).

Obviously Han is better than a Hired Gun, but is he 175% as good as a Hired Gun? 'Cause that's what they charge you for him. I personally think the answer is "no".

I'm also not a huge fan of Squad Tactics or Endless Ranks (although I like Endless Ranks much better when it can bring back a Deathtrooper, so it may be due for additional consideration now, especially in conjunction with Aftermath). I've never had an issue getting off He Doesn't Like you or Flank (since I rarely claim the battlefield, I often go second and have more characters who haven't been activated), and Cannon Fodder can always target Nightsister, unless for some reason my opponent killed Nightsister before Bala or Veers, which was the entire point of the card anyway. If that happens, it usually means I'm in absolutely terrific shape and the card can just be for re-rolls.

I think there are plenty of instances where 2x Stormtrooper can be an appropriate call over Veers, but certainly not every case, and in the case of my deck, almost certainly not.

17 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

My point is that it's hard (or maybe just unfair) to say that Han is worse than Hired Guns without acknowledging that the same is probably true of Veers and 'troopers.

I see the point you're getting at for Han, but I think there are instances where Veers is better than 2x Stormtroopers for the objective you're trying to achieve. If we're talking single die, I like paying 8 for HG way better than 14 for Han, and if we're talking about two dice, I like Rebel Trooper + HG for 16 points way better than eHan for 18.

It all depends on what you're trying to achieve, and I think that's the ultimate lesson here. Han and Veers are clearly the more aggressive options; action economy is a thing, and it will almost always be better to activate just one character for the same number of dice as two. So if "Veers is better in my deck" is your argument, then I would say the same is easily true about Han in a deck committed to maximizing action use.

In fact, there are pretty darn few (if any) scenarios where I would say that one character is straight up better than another. They all do different things in different decks, so again, it all depends on what you're trying to achieve. That's my $0.02 on the heroes vs villains debate, for what it's worth.

Veers is not better than double Troopers in all cases except when you have some vehicles in deck.

Double Troopers are i.e. nobrainer better choice for eJango pairing than Veers.

Ragrading the 15pt. characters, they would not be viable so much, in case there would not be Trooper for 7. This fact is hilarious and it makes all the pairings on Villain side so good. Nothing else is an issue.

Luke is still good option for 20 pts., the card draw is a guaranteed one more reroll. The focus side on him is mundane in the same way as disrupt is on Vader, in both cases, you usually do not want to resolve the die with this side, when you give up on 3 melee possibility. I see only one issue with Luke - the fact that card draw on him is not optional. This is huge downfall against mill. Vader is better, but he is more expensive and remember, that with each point on the 20-23 range, you vastly closes your pairing options. If Vader would be 22, than there would be no possible viable pairing to him in both sets.

Anyway I can promise you, that Luke + Maz will be tier 1. I am pretty sure. Yellow Hero is definitely best colour for them now, on Villain side I am not so sure, seems to me that Red is going to rock like truck. I can see 4 dice red pairings (like Phasma, Tie Pilot, Trooper, or simillar combinations with Veers and FN-2199 etc) and a full load of weapons, most of them redeployable, + new red crazy things I saw in full spoiler. That deck will definitely not care about your speed and resolving Vaders two dice, when it returns with tons of damage.

The biggest disappointment to me is new Red Heroes, I am really not sure, what to think of them, there is too much tricks but low impact... I have to really think about it, but I am not so happy regarding the Hero Red.

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

It all depends on what you're trying to achieve, and I think that's the ultimate lesson here. Han and Veers are clearly the more aggressive options; action economy is a thing, and it will almost always be better to activate just one character for the same number of dice as two. So if "Veers is better in my deck" is your argument, then I would say the same is easily true about Han in a deck committed to maximizing action use.

I agree with your premise and think that you're mostly correct, I just think that it's still not an entirely fair comparison, because the opportunity cost for Rebel Trooper + HG is different than for eHan. The difference between 14pts and 12pts really limits your options. As you say, there will of course be times when eHan helps achieve your deck's fundamental goal better than Rebel Trooper + Hired Gun, but those sets of characters are not interchangeable. Han's 18pt cost will inform your remaining options and restrict them twice as much than if it had been Rebel Trooper+HG.

Between Veers and Stormtroopers, it will depend on what your deck needs out of its red characters for a cost of 14pts. Between RT+HG and Han, it will depend on what your deck needs AND the answer to the question "can my deck afford to pay the 2pt premium if the answer is Han". That's why, to me, he's less deserving of my swoons. To each his/her own, of course. Good times.

2 hours ago, revhellion said:

Also, you said Jyn is a rare... she's actually a legendary.

Naw, Jyn is rare. The Yellow Hero Legendary is Chewbacca.

42 minutes ago, Ajones47 said:

Naw, Jyn is rare. The Yellow Hero Legendary is Chewbacca.

Thanks, though this was corrected earlier ;)

8 hours ago, revhellion said:

Thanks, though this was corrected earlier ;)

Oops! I must have opened this page in a tab, gotten distracted, then posted a few hours later without refreshing. My bad.

On 3/29/2017 at 7:48 PM, CBMarkham said:

Appreciate you. Appreciate your well thought out response, and your working with me to have reasonable discourse. Most of the time on the internet, this would have already devolved into someone yelling at me that I'm a drooling simpleton because I don't view things the same way as them.

That said, in your above post, how do you know which is the chicken and which is the egg?

You said that the meta is impacted by people having a negative opinion of a ship, because the negative opinion is echoed, and thus people do not play ships that you feel are worthwhile. How do you know that people are saying negative things for baseless reasons, without having played the ships? How do you know that the performance of the ships didn't inform the opinions, the meta silently fell in line with experience of the players, and THEN people would talk about the reasons they didn't like a ship? Is it wrong to share a collective evaluation, if the evaluation is negative?

Furthermore, just because you've had success with a ship in X-Wing does not necessarily make it a "good ship". For example, I consider the K-Fighter to be very sub par, by most metrics. It's entirely possible that you've had lots of success with K-Fighters, because you're an extra badass. To me, that would be indicative of an above average skill level on your part, a below average skill level on the part of your opponents, or some combination, perhaps.

I would never, ever try to stop you from playing, and loving, and enjoying a K-Fighter if it's what you wanted to do. I'm 100% for it. In fact, you get bonus respect from me at the table; but it probably doesn't stop me from blowing your list away (unless you're just THAT much better than me). I appreciate that you want to play what you want to play, and double respect if your skill level is high enough that you can achieve success while including elements that I would not consider mathematically ideal, but that doesn't make the mathematical analysis invalid. Personally, I'm often frustrated with the X-Wing forums because there's a contingent o f players who don't allow you to express ANY negative analysis (or as I would call it, accurate, critical analysis) without insisting that you should just "do better", "get good", and "play for FUN!".

I just ....I'm repeating myself now. My point was that I enjoy analysis, and I enj oy being very competitive. Math is good for that. If other people want different things, that's cool, but don't deny me the right to evaluate. Anyway....much respect, much love.

where have I seen the highlighted situation before...hmmmm

I have relay enjoyed reading all this tread and the are some interesting points,opinions and view, raised and I would like to a mine which is that I am a Villain player who uses and eJango and eKylo deck and I feel Jango is possiably under pointed as with cards like Cunning and other upgrades and paired with Kylo the damage out put of the deck seems to far out class any other deck at my local gaming club (Hero and Villain) it is capable of one-shoting a character each turn, the only other deck a my local that comes close to it's damage out put is a Grevious Trooper deck, as for my view of Hero characters I think Finn is useful as it gives Heros access to the Tie Fighter support and give the a way/chance to remove Shields from other characters this helps to deal with cards that spam shields such as Immobilize and I feel that is reason enough to give Finn a chance

Captain Phasma is much better than Veers... they both have 1 and 2 damage sides. Veers has the +2 but Phasma has a focus. The discard side is better than the shield side. Phasma has 2 more health. Phasma has one of the best abilities in the game, Veers has none. And phasma is only one point more expensive? Not even close which is better

16 hours ago, msieder said:

Captain Phasma is much better than Veers... they both have 1 and 2 damage sides. Veers has the +2 but Phasma has a focus. The discard side is better than the shield side. Phasma has 2 more health. Phasma has one of the best abilities in the game, Veers has none. And phasma is only one point more expensive? Not even close which is better

I wouldn't quite agree with that. Which I do think Phasma is generally better, I would say there's a bit more to it than a straight comparison.

Veers is better at what he does - shoot things consistently. 50% chance of rolling a damage side is significant compared to 33%. If that's what your deck requires, Veers is better. Phasma is better at what she does, which is be a good 'backbone' character. However, she also requires an additional investment - while Veers' ability is mostly useless, Phasma's is just as useless unless you add an extra 7+ points to her cost. Veers' may only cost one less, and right now it's not particularly relevant; but if the Hero characters are anything to go by it's likely to be a critical price point .