1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

Quick question for all those screaming "No More Nerfs!": is the game better now after the big four nerfs?

Is there a Mindlink list without a Jumpmaster that is a problem? Serious question. The JM5K and its insane dial and EPT at bargain-basement prices seems to be the actual culprit here.

This really should have been my discussion point now that I look back at it. The idea that only 4 more card changes, whether minor or large depending on the way you see things, may be the "step" to put the game in a very balanced position, is not being received very well considering it is all theoretical, and it is too easy to laser in on the idea of the specific cards listed (which was a mistake for me to list them, even if it did seem clear to me these are the 4 cards since the FAQ that most players decry as issues) being changed. Instead, I should have simply asked if the game is better off after the nerfs, and what players thought of the idea of having a "next four up" routine where FFG continually looked at the top 4 "problem" cards to see if they were in need of changes.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

There will ALWAYS be the next card. There will always be a card that shines in terms of utility, effectiveness, and cost. It's like pouring out a wheelbarrow and trying to make sure none of the rocks end up on the top of the pile. The whole assumption and effort is asinine from the beginning.

I do like this analogy quite a bit. Thanks for sharing. But I do have to say, I would appreciate a design team that tries to smooth that rock pile out as much as they can if there are lumps in different places, even if it means a new lump appears somewhere else. The idea would be to get as few/small lumps as possible. Now to make that possible, we would need to identify a way to perceive where the new lumps would form after smoothing out the existing ones to find where the least "lumpy" rock pile exists. Otherwise, as has been stated, you will just continually be smoothing lump after lump with no real progress as you will continually run into the same issue.

But, consensus seems to be that's impossible to identify where the "just right" game lies, and that there are far too many moving pieces for that to even be delved into.

1 hour ago, Gibbilo said:

You say "strong but fair" implying that TLT, Sabine, Regen are unfair. I'm not sure why you zero'd in on these in particular as being the "unfair" things breaking the game that would be autoinclude on FFG's next imaginary FAQ to "make the game just right." Rebels aren't exactly dominating, and their only strong lists in any tournament setting rely on these things. You nerf this stuff without buffs elsewhere and rebels are gone. GONE. Fair now?

1. The attack shuttle is only a "key component" because it has to be with there with the phantom title to get your turret shot. If people could run kanan biggs normally without the attack shuttle/title restriction they probably would.

2. B-wings on vassal doesn't mean they'd suddenly still be viable after you kill biggs, tlt, regen, sabine.

3. But what was the other component of the Cassian list??? (Seriously I don't know.) Which regional was it?

4. I like Z's. They fill holes around lists. You think that Airen Cracken list woulda won without the Miranda you want to destroy? You think they would have even made the cut with a TLT-less, sabine less, regen-less Miranda? Seriously?

Again, I'm not saying we should "kill" these ships/cards. If you consider them strong and fair as is, then ignore any of my statements indicating otherwise. I think regen and Sabine are fine myself, but see them mentioned on a number of occasions as "problems", so I decided to list them.

Anyways, what is it that preys on rebels to the point of them disappearing where TLT, Miranda, regen and Sabine are strong and -perhaps saying "but" here previously was the issue- fair? There have been a few comments about making these cards strong and fair is killing off rebels, but I haven't really heard what it is that would be killing them off. Probably just the usual suspects I assume?

Either way, I'm off the wagon of the cards I originally listed. I'm more interested in the discussion of if players believe the most recent nerfs make for a better game, and if tweaks to a few cards more (no need to name them) could put this game in an even better place.

Cassian was paired with Rey if I remember correctly.

Also, I like B-wings. So there. Sue me for believing they are usable in the right hands. lol.

Initial Assessment: yes, but it feels like the job was left half-finished.

44 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I do like this analogy quite a bit. Thanks for sharing. But I do have to say, I would appreciate a design team that tries to smooth that rock pile out as much as they can if there are lumps in different places, even if it means a new lump appears somewhere else. The idea would be to get as few/small lumps as possible. Now to make that possible, we would need to identify a way to perceive where the new lumps would form after smoothing out the existing ones to find where the least "lumpy" rock pile exists. Otherwise, as has been stated, you will just continually be smoothing lump after lump with no real progress as you will continually run into the same issue.

Since I like goofy analogies (yes, I do!), trying to design X-Wing is like tiling a floor, where once every 5 months you go to the store and buy 3 new tiles that are unlike any of the tiles you have installed previously. Each tile looks great, and seems just as flat as all the others. Good luck making them fit nicely, however. . .

29 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Since I like goofy analogies (yes, I do!), trying to design X-Wing is like tiling a floor, where once every 5 months you go to the store and buy 3 new tiles that are unlike any of the tiles you have installed previously. Each tile looks great, and seems just as flat as all the others. Good luck making them fit nicely, however. . .

No that's the experience of playing x-wing.

Designing X-Wing should have a plan of where tiles will fit instead of being blindsided by the shock development of needing to add a new wave of tiles when you thought you were finished.

16 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

No that's the experience of playing x-wing.

Designing X-Wing should have a plan of where tiles will fit instead of being blindsided by the shock development of needing to add a new wave of tiles when you thought you were finished.

Fair enough. OTOH, more X-Wing players need to invest in the Throw Carpet of Fun and forget about the irregularities underneath.

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

2. B-wings on vassal doesn't mean they'd suddenly still be viable after you kill biggs, tlt, regen, sabine.

Nevermind that blaire took it to second place at a system open. And it doesn't use any of the above cards in discussion for "nerfs"

I'll be the first to say that I was totally blindsided by triple jumps returning after the nerf. In hindsight, I don't know why I didn't see it. I wish I could see what else would be strong, but I'm only coming up with swarms...sort of.

I want to believe in swarms, but I am starting to understand why any swarm lacking Crack Shot is not regarded as competitive: variance. I mean, yeah, I've heard that before, but I'm finally starting to understand it. I've been having so much local success with 5 TIE strikers because people just aren't prepared for that at the moment, and I think something like that can make a splash in the meta. But over on another thread, one of the guys that brought 5 TIE strikers to Hoth said he went 3-4. While I have no idea how player skill factors in because I have never seen him play, there are undoubtedly times where the dice just abandon you, and you're left with a loss. However, there are equally as many times where the dice can give you a win, and you'll come on top if luck happens to decide that you should be blessed with good dice 7 games in a row. I like that style of play, where I just fly my heart out and hope for the best. Unfortunately, that's not conducive to tournaments, which I think is a lot of reason there are pilots that just don't make it into tournament-winning squads. I mean, if I happened to win a big tournament with 5 TIE strikers, or 5 TAPs or something like that, and I was asked how I did it, I would say, "I practiced flying them a lot, and I guess I just got lucky today."

SUMMARY: The nature of tournaments precludes the use of a whole stack of pilots and upgrades, that will likely never see top-tier play, no matter how many things get nerfed/buffed.

33 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

SUMMARY: The nature of tournaments precludes the use of a whole stack of pilots and upgrades, that will likely never see top-tier play, no matter how many things get nerfed/buffed.

TRUTH. So,

Don't complain when your favorite ship isn't on the short-list.

or

Bail on tournaments and play for fun.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

Nevermind that blaire took it to second place at a system open. And it doesn't use any of the above cards in discussion for "nerfs"

Let's see it happen a few more times and maybe I will concede the point. I suspect it has more to do with Blaire and less the B-wings.

But it doesn't mean that we can't try to ensure the list is as long as possible.

I think Attanni and TLT could use a slight nerf. That's about it. Say TLT = 7 points. And something really small for attanni.

NERF everything except Flight Instructor.

Brave.

10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think Attanni and TLT could use a slight nerf. That's about it. Say TLT = 7 points. And something really small for attanni.

Would range one be small enough?

9 minutes ago, thatdave said:

Would range one be small enough?

Lol. R3 would work though: Attanni only passes focuses to other ships if those ships are in range 1-3 of the focuser.

44 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

But it doesn't mean that we can't try to ensure the list is as long as possible.

Fine, but, I feel like far to much (negative) energy is spent on staring at the list and being peeved that something is not on there or that sometime isn't high enough on the list as it "deserves" to be.

I feel like this game has a LOT of recycling being done to get ships onto the short-list, and these energies could be spent in creation rather than repair.

We have had Imp Aces, Rebel Aces, Imp Vets, HotR, and 4 Huge ships + starfighter. What if those were 12 new ships instead??

**** no! You want to dilute the use of recognisable ships even further??? I'd much prefer new pilots for old ships over something that had two frames in an episode of Rebels or something.

Thats genuinely one of the worst ideas I've seen on this board.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

**** no! You want to dilute the use of recognisable ships even further??? I'd much prefer new pilots for old ships over something that had two frames in an episode of Rebels or something.

But there are plenty of ships that have more screen or page time then that that could be made. Ships that some Star Wars fans have been waiting and wanting for a long time.

Sure, but i am sure there are also plenty of people who if given the option:

A) More new ships.

B) Make old iconic ships playable.

Will choose the second in a heartbeat. Ace packs are in my opinion of the best releases for this game.

1 minute ago, DreadStar said:

Ace packs are in my opinion of the best releases for this game.

Definitely!

3 minutes ago, DreadStar said:

Sure, but i am sure there are also plenty of people who if given the option:

A) More new ships.

B) Make old iconic ships playable.

Will choose the second in a heartbeat. Ace packs are in my opinion of the best releases for this game.

Sure, but both views exist, therefore to capture the largest possible market, FFG has to cater to both parties.

25 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

**** no! You want to dilute the use of recognisable ships even further??? I'd much prefer new pilots for old ships over something that had two frames in an episode of Rebels or something.

Thats genuinely one of the worst ideas I've seen on this board.

I'm going to assume you are talking to me. . .

If new ships are the worst idea you have heard, you obviously don't read many threads. There a lots of terrible ideas to be found. And personally, I recognize all the ships. Some of them just weren't in a movie.

Besides, there are only 9 PS slots per ship. And how many times can you release the X-/Y-/A-/B- veterans pack before people get bored of nothing new for the game. Plus, all but one of those ships has had two releases already.

None of the hot ships are in the movies at all. I don't find that a problem at all, and recently played a list of U-, X-, and A-wings. Had a blast.

21 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But there are plenty of ships that have more screen or page time then that that could be made. Ships that some Star Wars fans have been waiting and wanting for a long time.

Gunboat, Skipray, Slave II, Sith Interceptor, anything Prequel*. You mean those ships?

*Speaking of which, if screen time is the best prerequisite for eligibility, why the fudge do we have almost NO prequel ships?

3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Sure, but both views exist, therefore to capture the largest possible market, FFG has to cater to both parties.

Absolutely, and noone argued against that.

5 minutes ago, DreadStar said:

Absolutely, and noone argued against that.

Not sure about Stay On The Leader's stance, especially considering his edit to the post I quoted.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Gunboat, Skipray, Slave II, Sith Interceptor, anything Prequel*. You mean those ships?

*Speaking of which, if screen time is the best prerequisite for eligibility, why the fudge do we have almost NO prequel ships?

Those are certainly examples. My personal wish list includes the Kom'rk Fighter and the Raven's Claw.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'm going to assume you are talking to me. . .

If new ships are the worst idea you have heard, you obviously don't read many threads. There a lots of terrible ideas to be found. And personally, I recognize all the ships. Some of them just weren't in a movie.

Besides, there are only 9 PS slots per ship. And how many times can you release the X-/Y-/A-/B- veterans pack before people get bored of nothing new for the game. Plus, all but one of those ships has had two releases already.

None of the hot ships are in the movies at all. I don't find that a problem at all, and recently played a list of U-, X-, and A-wings. Had a blast.

Gunboat, Skipray, Slave II, Sith Interceptor, anything Prequel*. You mean those ships?

*Speaking of which, if screen time is the best prerequisite for eligibility, why the fudge do we have NO prequel ships?

Personally I'd much rather see Ep 1-3 stuff over an Azimuth Gumpnugget or Slippery Beatbox. Your experience may vary.