Attani Mindlink

Rebel regen (Miranda, R2D2, maybe R5P9)

TLT

Sabine crew

What if FFG made similar erratas to these cards as they recently made to Zuckuss, Manaroo, Palp and x7? Where would we be?

Now this isn't a discussion as to what those erratas would or should be, but lets just assume these cards are changed at a similar level as the most recently nerfed cards, meaning they are still strong, but fair. So much so, that no reasonable player would be able to see any issue with them. If you see no issues with these cards and do not believe they impact the game in a negative light in any way, then you are perfectly free to participate in the discussion with the idea that the cards you see no need to be changed, see none.

The listed cards were chosen as it seems a healthy amount of players seem to believe they could have been added to the group of erratas.

In this case, is the game better, or worse? And if worse, what are the new problem cards that make it so?

Just looking for some discussion as to what the game would look like in such a circumstance.

side note: I am considering running some sort of event with changes to the listed cards, hence the thread. A possible extended list of cards to be changed include Kanan crew, Kylo crew, Push the Limit, Jumpmaster (as a whole), Asajj, R3-A2, and Biggs.

Let's just add Biggs to that list, too.

He seems to be a box the X-Wing can't be designed out of.

You'd still have the problem where a lot of newer named ships just flat-out outclass generics. It'd be a little more balanced than today, but I doubt you'd see swarms of any variety back in the meta. And I think that'd be a prerequisite for any "just right" meta.

What does a "just right" meta look like, anyway?

1 minute ago, Hawkstrike said:

What does a "just right" meta look like, anyway?

Not what we have that is for sure.

It's all relative. Right now is much better than when I joined the game, when TIE Phantoms and Fat Han ruled the Earth, and everything else was prey.

What needs to continue to shift, and how do you know when it's right?

Ok so you nerf Rebel Regen, TLT, and Sabine. Possibly Biggs as well.

What do rebels use, then? All of the bad options we don't use because they're very obviously inferior to everything else both other factions regularly use? You do realize that encompasses everything that makes the Rebel faction viable in tournament, right?

Yeah, lets just say you don't work for the X-Wing team for a very good reason.

The only way those nerfs work, is with a simultaneous buff to... well, basically everything that relies on those things to be good. ARC-170s, T-70s, Y-Wings, K-Wings, X-Wings, etc etc would have to be buffed to be competitive without them.

19 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

You'd still have the problem where a lot of newer named ships just flat-out outclass generics. It'd be a little more balanced than today, but I doubt you'd see swarms of any variety back in the meta. And I think that'd be a prerequisite for any "just right" meta.

I actually think the nerf of the big 4 make swarms potentially viable again.

2 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

What does a "just right" meta look like, anyway?

"Just right" might not have been the right phrase, but I guess the point of this thread is to identify if such changes could create a meta where a game winner is determined appropriately by player skill and list building and less so on a good or bad match up.

Along with this, a "just right" state of the game would mean list building would be very diverse. A lot of buffs would be necessary to make a number of under performing cards more attractive to achieve this second portion to my liking, but that would need to be step 2 of the process, and I didn't want to make this look anything like a "this is how I fix the game" thread, because we all know how those go.

15 minutes ago, Strikesback said:

Not what we have that is for sure.

Really? When there's Torpedoes, Bombs, Formations, Aces, Turrets, all named pilot list, all generic pilot list, 3,2,1 and 0 agility ships all doing well enough to make it to the top tables? What is there really missing in this meta?

3 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

"Just right" might not have been the right phrase, but I guess the point of this thread is to identify if such changes could create a meta where a game winner is determined appropriately by player skill and list building and less so on a good or bad match up.

Along with this, a "just right" state of the game would mean list building would be very diverse. A lot of buffs would be necessary to make a number of under performing cards more attractive to achieve this second portion to my liking, but that would need to be step 2 of the process, and I didn't want to make this look anything like a "this is how I fix the game" thread, because we all know how those go.

Ther are always going to be a game winner or a group of game winners. The idea is not to "fix" them. Is where you can have a 3 ways stalemate.

This is part of war or wargaming in general. So stop trying to fix something that does not need to be fix.

6 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

Really? When there's Torpedoes, Bombs, Formations, Aces, Turrets, all named pilot list, all generic pilot list, 3,2,1 and 0 agility ships all doing well enough to make it to the top tables? What is there really missing in this meta?

All told, the only thing out of that list that i wouldn't totally mind a nerf for is TLT, since now every faction has it, and would effect them roughly equally. Regen and Sabine are the only things that are making Rebel small ships relevant. Take good regen away, and you basically end the vast majority of the Rebel meta just by itself. Take Sabine away, and you end the K-Wing half of what's left. Take Biggs away, and you kill it all. Rebels would be left with exactly zero competitive options.

Meanwhile, with those things unnerfed, we have an extraordinarily healthy meta, consisting of basically everything you can think of. All 3 factions are well-represented. This proposed change would gut an entire faction for no reason, when those competitive options are only just now starting to come back after the last batch of errata. I just completely fail to see the point in these nerfs, and i'm sick to death of hearing armchair game devs give their 2 cents on a topic they just can't comprehend.

49 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Attani Mindlink

Rebel regen (Miranda, R2D2, maybe R5P9)

TLT

Sabine crew

What if FFG made similar erratas to these cards as they recently made to Zuckuss, Manaroo, Palp and x7? Where would we be?

Now this isn't a discussion as to what those erratas would or should be, but lets just assume these cards are neutered at a similar level as the most recently nerfed cards. These seem to be the cards a healthy amount of players believe could have been added to the group of erratas.

In this case, is the game better, or worse? And if worse, what are the new problem cards that make it so?

Just looking for some discussion as to what the game would look like in such a circumstance.

side note: I am considering running some sort of event with changes to the listed cards, hence the thread. A possible extended list of cards to be changed include Kanan crew, Kylo crew, Push the Limit, Jumpmaster (as a whole), Asajj, R3-A2, and Biggs.

NO MORE NERFS!

Seriously go sell your collection or have someone smash all your models for asking for more nerfs.

20 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

"Just right" might not have been the right phrase, but I guess the point of this thread is to identify if such changes could create a meta where a game winner is determined appropriately by player skill and list building and less so on a good or bad match up.

Along with this, a "just right" state of the game would mean list building would be very diverse. A lot of buffs would be necessary to make a number of under performing cards more attractive to achieve this second portion to my liking, but that would need to be step 2 of the process, and I didn't want to make this look anything like a "this is how I fix the game" thread, because we all know how those go.

There will ALWAYS be good and bad matchups. That's the nature of 3 factions and the number of different mechanics in the game at this point. Look at the old Jouster -> Arc-dodger -> Turret pillars. The pillars have broken down a fair bit these days, but the idea still stands. You'll be strong against some things and weak against other. One could possibly hope that sufficient skill could make up for the matchup deficiencies, but then it's just a matter of one person being significantly better than the other.

41 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

What does a "just right" meta look like, anyway?

It's not too hot, and it's not too cold. Sheesh.

42 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

You'd still have the problem where a lot of newer named ships just flat-out outclass generics. It'd be a little more balanced than today, but I doubt you'd see swarms of any variety back in the meta. And I think that'd be a prerequisite for any "just right" meta.

Squadrons. And mechanics to create them out of generics.

15 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

All told, the only thing out of that list that i wouldn't totally mind a nerf for is TLT, since now every faction has it,

Actually, we Imps still don't have it yet. So could we just have a few months of unadultered TLT pew-pew first??

10 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

Really? When there's Torpedoes, Bombs, Formations, Aces, Turrets, all named pilot list, all generic pilot list, 3,2,1 and 0 agility ships all doing well enough to make it to the top tables? What is there really missing in this meta?

I would agree that the game is in a good place. Hence why I believe FFG is really close to getting the game to a point where there are nearly no oppressive options available.

Which makes me want to reiterate one of my initial questions- what is an issue in a circumstance that TLT, Sabine, rebel regen, and Mindlink can't be pointed at as issues any longer?

17 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

Ok so you nerf Rebel Regen, TLT, and Sabine. Possibly Biggs as well.

What do rebels use, then? All of the bad options we don't use because they're very obviously inferior to everything else both other factions regularly use? You do realize that encompasses everything that makes the Rebel faction viable in tournament, right?

Yeah, lets just say you don't work for the X-Wing team for a very good reason.

The only way those nerfs work, is with a simultaneous buff to... well, basically everything that relies on those things to be good. ARC-170s, T-70s, Y-Wings, K-Wings, X-Wings, etc etc would have to be buffed to be competitive without them.

Just want to point out first and foremost that I am primarily a rebel player, so don't get it into your head that I have some vendetta against the Rebels for some reason.

What do rebels use then, you ask? Well, considering I don't think any of the nerfs to Palp, x7, Zuckuss or Manaroo completely remove those cards from competitive use in the game and instead simply kept them strong but fair, and considering I posted this discussion under the premise that the listed cards would see similar changes which would keep them strong but fair, I'm gonna say that rebels could still use, competitively, the following-

ARCs (Norra and Braylen)

A-wings (Protos, Greens and Jake)

Attack Shuttle (All except maybe Hera, many in the Ghost/Phantom)

B-wing (Blue squadron)

E-wing (Corran Horn)

K-wing (Warden, Miranda)

T-70 (Poe, Jess)

Tie Fighter (Ashoka, Rex)

U-wing (Maybe a stretch, but Cassian is usable)

VCX-100 (All pilots)

X-wing (Biggs)

YT-1300 (OT Chewie and Han, Rey)

YT-2400 (Dash)

Y-wing (Gold)

Z-95 (bandit, tala, Blount and Cracken maybe even?)

Also, I have no idea why you have to say something like "Yeah, lets just say you don't work for the X-Wing team for a very good reason", when I didn't even suggest any ways to change the cards, and did not even state my position on how I felt about the cards. Just so you know, I think a couple of them are fine myself, but I decided to attempt to be unbiased and I simply listed the 4 things I see mentioned the most since the most recent FAQ as oppressive. I'm simply looking for some good discussion.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

It's not too hot, and it's not too cold. Sheesh.

Goldilocks, got it. Flies a Y-Wing with an EPT.

I honestly think we should give the previous FAQ time to sink in and for the player base to adjust before we start a witch hunt as to what needs to be nerfed next. People's opinions vary widely on the list of cards suggested, not to mention the ones the OP added in fine print. Anytime something is nerfed, you will have people upset. Why stir up things more when we are not sure yet it is needed, or could be fixed another way?

8 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

There will ALWAYS be good and bad matchups. That's the nature of 3 factions and the number of different mechanics in the game at this point. Look at the old Jouster -> Arc-dodger -> Turret pillars. The pillars have broken down a fair bit these days, but the idea still stands. You'll be strong against some things and weak against other. One could possibly hope that sufficient skill could make up for the matchup deficiencies, but then it's just a matter of one person being significantly better than the other.

No doubt this is the case. Rock paper scissors is going to exist at least to some extent no matter what in a game where you get to pick and choose your pieces. I always seem to be misunderstood on this point. I don't assume a perfectly balanced game is possible. I simply want the game to be as close to perfect as possible. Note I said in the comment you quoted I wanted games to be determined "less so" on matchups, meaning I am aware that match ups, no matter what changes were made to the game, would be a big piece as to who wins and loses a game. I am simply wondering if the proposed changes would see the game winner determined less by how the players list's match up and more by a player's skill.

I don't have a problem with regen, really. I see it as a necessary part of Rebels, as a faction, and the restrictions on each type of regen are enough to keep it honest.

TLT, I guess? I saw someone mentioned the defensive bonus at R3, which is a nice simple idea that still keeps the potential hurt on 2Agi ships, and might actually drag Interceptors back into the meta (or at least Soontir...).

Mindlink I'm on board for, but nothing as harsh as what they did with Manaroo. A basic range restriction would be fine, like 1-2. Even 1-3 would be ok.

Sabine, same as Mindlink. Just a basic range restriction. She's strong, but her issues stem mainly from her ability to trigger the effect from pretty much anywhere on the map.

Basically, I don't think a major nerf is needed, but a minor tweak to the latter two wouldn't go without some praise. I stress minor, though...

15 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I would agree that the game is in a good place. Hence why I believe FFG is really close to getting the game to a point where there are nearly no oppressive options available.

Which makes me want to reiterate one of my initial questions- what is an issue in a circumstance that TLT, Sabine, rebel regen, and Mindlink can't be pointed at as issues any longer?

Just want to point out first and foremost that I am primarily a rebel player, so don't get it into your head that I have some vendetta against the Rebels for some reason.

What do rebels use then, you ask? Well, considering I don't think any of the nerfs to Palp, x7, Zuckuss or Manaroo completely remove those cards from competitive use in the game and instead simply kept them strong but fair, and considering I posted this discussion under the premise that the listed cards would see similar changes which would keep them strong but fair, I'm gonna say that rebels could still use, competitively, the following-

ARCs (Norra and Braylen)

A-wings (Protos, Greens and Jake)

Attack Shuttle (All except maybe Hera, many in the Ghost/Phantom)

B-wing (Blue squadron)

E-wing (Corran Horn)

K-wing (Warden, Miranda)

T-70 (Poe, Jess)

Tie Fighter (Ashoka, Rex)

U-wing (Maybe a stretch, but Cassian is usable)

VCX-100 (All pilots)

X-wing (Biggs)

YT-1300 (OT Chewie and Han, Rey)

YT-2400 (Dash)

Y-wing (Gold)

Z-95 (bandit, tala, Blount and Cracken maybe even?)

Also, I have no idea why you have to say something like "Yeah, lets just say you don't work for the X-Wing team for a very good reason", when I didn't even suggest any ways to change the cards, and did not even state my position on how I felt about the cards. Just so you know, I think a couple of them are fine myself, but I decided to attempt to be unbiased and I simply listed the 4 things I see mentioned the most since the most recent FAQ as oppressive. I'm simply looking for some good discussion.

ARC-170: Norra relies on R2-D2, Braylen needs Biggs to survive. I've never seen Norra used successfully without Regen.

Attack Shuttle: Name the last time you saw an attack shuttle.

B-Wing: Name the last time you saw a B-Wing.

E-Wing: Do i even need to say it? Corran is absolute trash tier garbage without regen. He's 50 points riding on 3 agility and 5 HP. Regen is the only thing that makes Corran work.

K-Wing: will die off completely with your nerfs. Miranda can't regen well, nor can Ks bomb well anymore. Those are the only good things K-Wings can do.

T-70: Poe relies on regen as a part of his schtick; Without it hes 40+ points for not a particularly huge amount of offense or defense. Name the last time you saw Jess.

TIE Fighter: It's fun; but i wouldn't currently call it competitive, not compared to the Rebel giants. Especially considering without a good Sabine, it loses it's primary option to contribute when it has the captured TIE mod. Why bother with it when it has no generics, when that'll be all the Rebel faction will have left.

U-Wing: Lmao ok. If it's bad now and Rebels are considered the lesser of the 3 factions at the moment, what makes you think anyone's gonna use it post-rebel nerf?

VCX-100: It could do ok without Biggs; But when it's the only good thing Rebels have and we have to run 2 at once, you're gonna call for it's nerf down the line

X-Wing: What would we even use? The terrible options we abandoned years ago for being terrible?

YT-1300: Without a regen wingman, unviable

YT-2400: Without a regen wingman, unviable

Y-Wing: With a gimped TLT, no sabine, no pilots with EPTs, not particularly viable in any way. Can't bomb, can't torp, can't turret. Why bother.

Z-95: Lmao ok i havent used Z-95s in almost 2 years.

Biggs - add once per turn

TLT - 2nd attack gets -1 dice

Mindlink - remove limit on focus and stress

Sabine - change damage resolution to a dice roll

rebel regen - idk lol

Just now, Razgriz25thinf said:

ARC-170: Norra relies on R2-D2, Braylen needs Biggs to survive

Attack Shuttle: Name the last time you saw an attack shuttle

B-Wing: Name the last time you saw a B-Wing

E-Wing: Do i even need to say it? Corran is absolute trash tier garbage without regen.

K-Wing: will die off completely with your nerfs. Miranda can't regen well, nor can Ks bomb well anymore.

T-70: Poe relies on regen as a part of his schtick; Without it hes 40+ points for not a particularly huge amount of offense or defense. Name the last time you saw Jess.

TIE Fighter: It's fun; but i wouldn't currently call it competitive, not compared to the Rebel giants.

U-Wing: Lmao ok

VCX-100: It could do ok without Biggs; But when it's the only good thing Rebels have and we have to run 2 at once, you're gonna call for it's nerf down the line

YT-1300: Without a regen wingman, unviable

YT-2400: Without a regen wingman, unviable

Y-Wing: With a gimped TLT, not particularly viable

Z-95: Lmao ok

Let me bold some key sentences in the comment you quoted since you seem to seriously be failing to understand what I am seeking to discuss here.

13 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

What do rebels use then, you ask? Well, considering I don't think any of the nerfs to Palp, x7, Zuckuss or Manaroo completely remove those cards from competitive use in the game and instead simply kept them strong but fair, and considering I posted this discussion under the premise that the listed cards would see similar changes which would keep them strong but fair, I'm gonna say that rebels could still use, competitively, the following...

So every single one of your points about ships no longer being usable due to the changes are void, since I never even state how big the changes would be. I simply state any change would keep the cards strong but fair, which means whatever the reader believes that sort of change would be, it would be. For some, it may mean something so minor it would basically be pointless to make. That's for you to decide. I will go ahead and edit the original post to make sure this is clear since apparently I have to make that clear.

Also, wanted to point out a few things concerning a couple of your argumentative points, even though your argument is misaligned.

- The attack shuttle is a key component to one of the strongest lists in the game right now, Kanan + Biggs, so it's fair to say it is seen plenty.

- Last time I saw a B-wing would be on vassal a couple days ago where Blair Bunke's 2Bs, 2 Zs, stresshog list is picking up steam.

- Cassian was in a top cut for a recent regional. But, I did say this was a stretch already, so... thanks for the "Lmao ok" anyways?

- Z-95s are always going to have a place as cheap filler/blockers. You scoff, but Airen Cracken was a key component in a regional winning list even before the FAQ change.

It frustrates me so much when so many members of this forum espouse the opinion that every single ship, pilot, upgrade, etc. must be exactly equally competitive ...

This would be such an incredibly boring game if it were so ...

To be clear ... not every "object" within this game has to be utilized an equal amount for this to be "balanced" or "correct". Nor does everything have to be equally effective or viable ...

35 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

Goldilocks, got it. Flies a Y-Wing with an EPT.

Goldileaderlocks and her proton porridge. It's a classic