I play a warrior/aggressor in a AP podcast Dice For Brains. http://diceforbrains.com/the-adventure-begins-2/ Her name is Bher and through her three seasons of adventures in the outer rim she has managed to travel to being a dark side force user. I am worried that the only way for her to return from the Dark Side is to self sacrifice and die like Darth Vader did in the original films. I don't want her to die and and I feel like she's not really a power hungry person, she just wants justice for the wrongs that have been done to her family and planet. Does my character have to die saving someone else, to return from the Dark Side?

Call out on page 52 of the core book. Short answer: no, unless your GM is brutal. And yes, Vader sacrificed himself, but 2 points:

1) Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader did the following (not anywhere near a complete list, just some examples):

- slaughtered an entire tribe of Tusken Raiders as a padawan (including children)

- murdered a defenseless Count Dooku

- helped obliterate the Jedi order (including yet more infanticide)

- force choked his own pregnant wife

- assisted in the destruction of an entire planet and all inhabitants

- many more murders and such throughout his tenure as a Sith Lord including casually using the force to kill/torture/intimidate.

2) We don't know if self sacrifice and dying is the only way he could have redeemed himself, that's just the way it shook out.

I mean, if your character blew up a peaceful planet then good luck. Otherwise, get that morality up to 70 and have some good RP!

Sounds like she basically just needs to turn the other cheek.

In theory, she's drifted down to the Dark Side by constantly making decisions that give her Conflict. Stop making those decisions. In play, Bher may realize that she's firmly within the grasp of the Dark Side. She may make the choice that she does not wish to end her life still bound to the evils of this malevolent entity. It won't be easy.

Playing to the Light Side effectively means limiting your choices. Knowing that one choice will bring Conflict, she'll just have to choose another option. These limited choices is a lot of what makes the Dark Side easier in my own games. It's difficult, but if she's looking for atonement, it can be done, and with the Conflict rules being what they are, if she goes full Paladin and sticks with it, that difference can be made up rather quickly. I do not listen to Dice with Brains just yet, so I don't know what the party in general will think of this, but it does require some buy in from the rest of the party. Otherwise, Bher may be stuck having to steadfastly refuse to take part in some adventures, getting hired for assassin work for instance.

But, if the character herself is Not looking for atonement, if you the player are asking how can she get back to the Light Side without a conscious choice on Bher's part... then I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you.

Yeah, I would second that even though RAW, once you hit 70 morality you are there; it would still require a conscious choice on the part of the character. You may not need to do the Star Wars equivalent of sticking a fork in an outlet, but you sure as heck can't do it accidentally.

Edited to add:

At a few points along the way, making the moral choice should put the character in jeopardy, perhaps even mortal peril. Redemption stories are great, but there needs to be some oomph, some real choice that the character makes.

It will be a long road. This character has at most a morality of 29, and needs to get to 71. Bher needs to gain a bare minimum of 42 morality. That means that if she gains no conflict (including passing all fear tests, never using dark side pips, making good life choices, etc) it will take AT LEAST 5 sessions that all involve meaningful choices that are worth morality and rolling 8-10 each time. Maybe some truly extraordinary heroics could result in a blanket "you gain x morality," but that is up to the GM and would require stuff like diving over the heads of a battalion of stormtroopers lead by an ISB officer while clad in Jedi robes with an ignited lightsaber to rush into a burning orphanage and save some kids.

It is far more likely that this will take a long time, with some backsliding along the way. After all, when the chips are down, your friends are under fire and you need to use the force RIGHT THE HELL NOW, it's soooo easy to just take those 2 dark side pips and save the day. Wasn't that easy? And it wasn't so bad, was it?

That is what will make the story a blast to play.

The morality system in this game only makes sense if you view it as your character's internal turmoil, not if you view it as your characters actual morality IMO. By SWRPs system the only way Vader could have been redeemed after killing the Emperor would be if he spent his last 13 sessions not doing anything evil, which would have allowed him a climb to redemption despite having aided in the murder of billions of people. I feel like Vader was using the dark side to the very end, his anger turned against the Emperor out of fear of losing the only remnant of his happier days in the galaxy. The moment of redemption in my mind is when he asks Luke to remove the mask. That's when he finally lets go of his fear, accepts his own mortality, and asks to have one genuine moment with his son. This doesn't wash away his sins, but it does put him at peace and thus in balance with the force.

Wow! Thank you all very much. If you listen to Dice For Brains, you will find out that:

a) Bher didn't do anything even close to what Darth Vader did.

b) Her teammates and Uncle desperately want to her to return.

c) Bher wants to be a a force for good but is unwilling to sacrifice her family or friends to do so.

Listen here at the beginning of the adventure. https://iTunes.apple.com/us//podcast/diceforbrainss-podcast/id1069678831

3 hours ago, TaiChiSusan said:

Does my character have to die saving someone else, to return from the Dark Side?

What you need to do is get with your GM and tell him that you want some kind of redemption story arc and then work with him to that end. Assuming that you have written up a sufficient background with NPC family members, backstory hooks and meat for them to play with, this should be easy for a GM of any note. From there, enjoy the ride. Have moments of doubt and pain, role-play out some internal struggle and eventually enjoy your non-dead redeemed character.

Assuming this isn't just a thinly veiled advertisement for your podcast, it also of course probably means no longer using - or rather, using very judiciously - your signature technique as an Aggressor (Terrify).

29 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Assuming this isn't just a thinly veiled advertisement for your podcast, it also of course probably means no longer using - or rather, using very judiciously - your signature technique as an Aggressor (Terrify).

Terrify earns one conflict automatically just for knowing it. It isn't hard to recover, but it requires tough self reflection.

27 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Terrify earns one conflict automatically just for knowing it. It isn't hard to recover, but it requires tough self reflection.

My mistake. I was thinking it was with each use. Guess that's what I get for commenting without my book in front of my face.

Well, with Terrify the GM could decide that using the talent in certain circumstances is worth Conflict, so emsquared isn't totally off base. Of course, that's a GM decision, so what happens Conflict-wise to a PC that uses Terrify or similar auto-Conflict talents is likely to vary from table to table.

Desslok is ultimately right, in that a PC's "redemption arc" is really only going to happen if the player and GM work together to create it.

That being said, mechanically it's going to be tough for Bher to get back to the light, since if she wants to use Force powers, she's either got to take Conflict for using those dark side pips, or suffer strain and flip Destiny Points to use the light side pips. To say nothing of needing to avoid acts that earn Conflict whenever possible, which may indeed mean sacrifice on the character's part, either spiritually in letting go of her fervor for justice and taking a more reasoned approach, or possibly even sacrificing those close to her if the cause is just.

Where I the GM, I'd certainly make the character work for their redemption, with plenty of potential stumbling blocks in the character's path as they try to get back to the light. To pull a quote from the Order of the Stick webcomic: "Redemption isn't for everybody." The character is going to have to make some serious changes in their actions in order to be able to attain redemption, as they won't have the option of taking the easy path if they're serious about getting back into the light.

4 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, with Terrify the GM could decide that using the talent in certain circumstances is worth Conflict, so emsquared isn't totally off base.

Yea, I'm a "Conflict is only useful if you use it"-GM, and I think that's a large part of where my pre-supposition was coming from. I would be handing out Conflict for use of that Talent more often than not. I also hand out Conflict a lot more liberally than the vanilla book guidelines in general, but Fear - intentionally (or not) causing it in others, and then especially feeding off/using it to your advantage? Big Light-side no-no.

First off, awesome podcast, I really enjoyed hearing you discover role playing and the creativity it allowed you.

So, redemption, it's tough... really really tough. What I would suggest is working with Ross to come up with a reason for Bher to change her entire approach to life and The Force. She has been following her own way mostly and, as it should, that led to darkness through a constant "doing wrong for the right reasons" fall.

Bher needs something to motivate her to do the right thing far more often. This could be through Force visions, a new Mentor, a special Holocron or other such moments. Perhaps even a great personal loss could be the trigger, perhaps she looses an arm through interaction with other Dark Side NPC's and she has an epiphany that she needs to change. Or perhaps her uncle dies from her emotional weakness which leads to her vowing to do better.

Once that pivotal moment has occurred she can begin the long road. As others pointed out using The Force always has a cost for Bher; the Dark Side earns Conflict while the Light Side requires Strain and a Destiny Point. Then there are the role play reasons to earn Conflict; using violence first, lying, stealing, coercing, murder, but also standing by as others do terrible things.

Bher needs to keep her Conflict per session around the 1-3 points range to redeem herself within a season, that's tough and will require you to role play very carefully and consider consequences before Bher acts, essentially she will become a different character after that big moment which should create a very interesting new approach for you as a player to explore.

I would also suggest talking with Ross about his and your approach to Conflict, between the two of you ensuring there are ways for Bher to do the right thing (which will probably be more challenging) to avoid Conflict. I'm not fully clear on all the ways Bher has available to use the Force, she may need to learn new techniques (Talents or Force Powers) that fit her new philosophical view. She will likely need to find new ways to use her old powers as well.

Good luck and I look forward to hearing her story.

I'm going to point out one thing that seems to have been left out of a lot of these replies here regarding Conflict.

Under the rules, your GM is supposed to tell you before any action your character takes would award Conflict. This allows the player to better understand what situations would merit Conflict and it also allows the player full control over the story of their character's Morality.

As you are in an actual play podcast, I'm guessing this rule might be left out due to the tedious nature of editing out repetitive and tangential conversations but it should be considered for the fact that it is how the game is meant to be played. The player tells the Morality story and the GM only steps in to adjudictate exactly how much Conflict an action is worth and to warn the player before they proceed if Conflict is imminent.

Dang, suddenly we have the whole Dice For Brains crew up in here or what? I just started listening about a week ago. I'll go ahead and assume I'm the catalyst somehow.

Anyway, I would suggest an arc of Bher reveling in the Dark Side for a bit. She doesn't have to go psycho evil, and can even still be what most people would call a Hero. So no murder sprees, no killing children, none of that. She can just ride the wave of anger and passion to save the day. But the Dark Side still eats at her, and as her Morality closes in on Zero, she has more and more trouble keeping control. As RichardBuxton suggested, there should be a pivotal point at which she decides to turn around.

2 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

Dang, suddenly we have the whole Dice For Brains crew up in here or what? I just started listening about a week ago. I'll go ahead and assume I'm the catalyst somehow.

Anyway, I would suggest an arc of Bher reveling in the Dark Side for a bit. She doesn't have to go psycho evil, and can even still be what most people would call a Hero. So no murder sprees, no killing children, none of that. She can just ride the wave of anger and passion to save the day. But the Dark Side still eats at her, and as her Morality closes in on Zero, she has more and more trouble keeping control. As RichardBuxton suggested, there should be a pivotal point at which she decides to turn around.

You need to get through season 3, Bher gets rather dark.

Ross (Gm and editor) edits heavily, so I had assumed those Conflict conversations where being removed.

I must say that the recent TftHW episode really reveals a lot of the sausage making process for DfB. Ross talks a lot about how he approaches the Conflict system and it definitely sounds like he would work with you @TaiChiSusan to develop Bher's redemption story.

in the conflict chart using fear has the character gain 2 conflict minimum. If the character uses terrify, then that is definitely using fear, I have the warden equivalent Baleful Gaze which also arguably uses fear since you use the force to project that fear so that it puts off your opponent from being able to aim at you (thats aim with a small a not the maneuver). So I know ahead of using it Im getting 2 points at least. In te Keeping the Peace o66 episode tey mke it clar using fear is a path to the ds.

I've actually listened to some of your campaign, and it's been enjoyable. Not fully caught up, but it's been fun to listen to.

On Topic: No she doesn't need to die, but she needs to try and make a conscious effort to change her ways. In broad, thematic strokes, she needs to do some or all of the following kind of things:

1. Have the moment of clarity that she's going down a dangerous path, and that it's turning her into something she doesn't want to be. In stories, this is often accomplished by her "facing herself in the mirror". Usually by say, finding herself being the source of fear in a young child, echoing some past trauma of her own, but now she's on the side of the Big Bad, the thing she thought she was fighting against. She's no longer the helpless innocent, she's the aggressor, continuing the cycle of pain and hatred to someone new. Realizing this, is the kind of thing that can help a character turn around. I'm trying to think of some pop culture examples of this, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment. However there are TONS of examples of this kind of thing out there, you probably know a few, and I'm sure others in this forum can provide examples. But you get the idea, the *She looks at her hands and says* "What have I become?" kind of stuff. Darth Vader in Return is a good example of exactly this, but obviously without the Heroic Sacrifice at the end.

2. She needs to actively resist choosing the easy path to resolve her problems. This would translate in game to making an effort to NOT use a lot of those really handy abilities you've learned, like Threaten, to minimize the amount of Conflict you generate. It also goes without saying, but trying to find non-violent resolutions to the encounters would help as well, or at least non-lethal. Not saying you have to never ever fight again, this is a roleplaying game in Star Wars after all. But she needs to CONSCIOUSLY make a concerted, ongoing effort to not give into violence if possible. To try and talk her way out of the situation, to at least try and negotiate, and never EVER throw the first punch. If the fur starts to fly, then sure, she can defend herself and others, but she needs to try and use attacks that aren't as lethal, perhaps only inflicting strain damage attacks if possible, or perhaps using some kind of skill check to force someone to surrender. Having an enemy wounded, and then you maybe roll Negotiate, or Charm, etc to say basically "It's over pal! Lay down your weapon and live through this, I don't want to hurt you any further!" Would be a good way to go.

Having heard your podcast, and having a decent idea of how flexible your GM is, I think this would go over quite well as the start of her path towards redemption.

3. Perhaps not using her lightsaber much, or at all for a long time. There is a reason people call them "glowsticks of DEATH", as that's what they do really well. So making a conscious choice to not resort to that weapon, and it's inherent lethality would also, thematically, help show that she's trying to find a new way to deal with things. You might try cross-specing into Warden, which has a lot of defensive/non-lethal options for a Force User. It's even got a talent that lets you just decide, that on ANY attack that would normally kill an opponent, you can instead say it only knocks them out or stuns them, allowing the NPC to survive the assault, letting you arrest them, or whatever.

4. Sacrificing items/materials you might've obtained that are the source of your Dark Side decline. Like if you guys found a Sith Holocron for example, and she's been using it a lot. Chucking the thing out the ship's airlock would go a long way towards showing she's trying a new path, especially if it means you now are without a particular useful stat boost or similar. I think, IIRC, that you guys found a training cube with a Clone Trooper as the interface mechanic, at least up to where I stopped listening. If you've found something more nefarious since then, give it up. And make a point to say she's ridding herself of the thing for good.

5. Don't use those Dark Side pips....like, ever. You don't want her to be a Dark Sider anymore? Then never ever use those pips for her powers again. This will, thematically, show she's trying to be better with her actions, and literally NOT tap into the Dark Side to solve her problems (which is how she got into her current predicament in the first place), and it will mean she has to find other ways to deal with her challenges. Either by simply accepting that she's going to have difficulty with using the Force, without calling on her emotions for aid (which is why the Dark Side is so easy and seductive), or by having to find, non-Force ways to deal with her challenges. Sure she could use Mind Trick on this guy, and make him fear her to solve her problem, or she could just try a Charm check, and simply sweet talk him around. Both have the same result, but one doesn't get her more Conflict, which helps her climb out of that hole faster.

6. Talk to your GM about it off-mic. Tell him what you want to do, and the ideas you have on how to accomplish that, and ask him for any advice on how to help push her story arc along the Path of Redemption. He's your GM after all, so his say is final, regardless of what advice we give you. But I think if you roughly use the tips I've given, along with whatever advice he gives you, you'll be fine. I'm confident he would be more than thrilled to have you roleplay out a Redemption Arc on the podcast, as that's the kind of narrative stuff Star Wars is famous for. And I've heard enough of the stuff he focuses on, as a GM, to think he would eat that up like candy The struggle of Good/Evil, Light/Dark. Most die hard Star Wars fans eat that stuff up with a spoon, it's their ambrosia for the genre, I know it's mine.

And this should take a while, and, I can't stress this enough, it will be difficult for your PC, and you. For Bher, it will be hard thematically in that she will have to deal with her emotional urges, and resisting them. The Dark Side is often compared to an addiction, and kicking an addiction is hard. You feel on edge the whole time, frequently irritable, lashing out for no reason, or over things that are blown out of proportion, etc. She's going to have to resist using some of her favorite methods of dealing with problems, which is going to be frustrating for her. She's used to solving problems with her fist, now, she can't, no matter how much her hands itch to throttle a jerk, she can't do it, she WON'T do it.

For YOU, the difficult will translate in that you will likely end up being less effective with your actions and rolls. You won't be able to use those fun talents that work SO well, but generate Conflict at all, or not as often. You might be forced to use skills and tactics that you didn't build your character for, meaning lower dice pools, and a higher chance of failure, since you're using skills/talents you haven't invested as much XP into. I can't stress this enough YOU SHOULD EXPECT AND ACCEPT THIS . This is the mechanical reflection of her, literally, choosing a new path. The Xp you've invested has created a certain method/path for her to deal with problems, that path has, at least in part, lead to her Fall. So she needs to learn a new path. Which means she will be in uncharted waters for a while. As she tries to talk her way out of it, despite you not putting any XP into social skills. Or by buying a new spec tree, with more defensive/non-lethal options, which means she will be less than 100% effective as you spend XP into this new tree. Meaning it might not be the best idea to charge into battle like before, but instead hang back and play defensive, or use the environment in the encounter instead of her saber.

Try not to get frustrated when this happens. Partly, because you can fairly quickly spend some XP into some skills to help you shore up any deficiencies she might be suffering at first. Like simply dropping some XP to get a few ranks in a social skill or two. Even with the "out of class" xp penalty, it's not that expensive to buy up some ranks in something outside your spec line. This difficulty makes sense though, as she's trying to solve problems with under-utilized skills, so she will of course be crappy at first. But, as she continues to use these other methods or conflict resolution, she will (by you spending XP), improve at them, allowing her to be more effective.

But yeah, expect it to be hard, it will be, and it should be. Try not to view the difficulties that you will have (and you will) as punishment, but as challenges she is overcoming. Try to rethink your personal goal in each encounter. It's not just "win the fight", it should now be "win the fight, WITHOUT giving into the Dark Side, and generating Conflict". Treat every encounter that you finish without gaining Conflict, or at least gaining less than you would've before, as a victory. It doesn't matter if you missed every attack you threw, or didn't succeed at that social check. That shouldn't be your measure of victory and success right now. The measure should be "did I get out of that encounter without her losing her control, and giving into the quick and easy path?" If you can look at it from that viewpoint, I think you will find this very rewarding. Because while Conflict isn't a Dark Side punishment, it IS the mechanic by which your location on the Light/Dark spectrum is gauged. And it IS the way that you will climb out of the Dark Side range, and make your way towards the Light, if not Paragon itself. At the end of every session, when you roll conflict, and your score goes up, count that as a win.

Remember, YOU have chosen this path, and it will be hard, and it will be challenging, but the reward, hopefully at the end, is a character with an awesome story that you can enjoy, and look back on over the years, as an excellent roleplaying experience. That you played a character who fell so far into the Dark, but was stronger than the Darkness, and was able to pull herself back out, and become a true hero of Light. That's the kind of story that has literally been told since the dawn of human storytelling. If you can organically recreate such a story in your own roleplaying game...well....then you've experienced the kind of thing that's made players like us love fantasy/roleplaying for decades. It's the kind of gaming experience we hope we get, ever time we sit down at the table.

You have an awesome opportunity in front of you for some wonderful roleplay and storytelling. Treasure it, and milk it for every drop of fun and awesomeness you can.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

I'm trying to think of some pop culture examples of this, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

TVTropes is your friend . Mind you, this is a mix of physical and mental - but you should be able to mine some of those examples for some gold.

14 minutes ago, Desslok said:

TVTropes is your friend . Mind you, this is a mix of physical and mental - but you should be able to mine some of those examples for some gold.

Oh I know I could do some research and find some, but I'm currently at work, and Tvtropes.org can sometimes be virusy from my experience. So I limit the sites I browse on the work computer. I mean I'm already running a high risk browsing luchadorian midget pron sites, I can't take chances with too many at once!

Regardless, I'm confident the theme I was describing is familiar to...well pretty much anyone that's ever watched/read dramatic storytelling in the past few decades.

MANY MANY THANKS To the kind and thoughtful responses to this question. I am honored by your interest, compassion and voluminous advice.

Bher is already a ********** SPOILER ALERT ******* dark side user. I don't like to metagame. I play her from my gut and what I think she would feel in the moment. Likewise, I think the other players, David Wright and Joshu Reynolds do their very best to inhabit their characters without player's knowledge. It is impossible to achieve total separation of player/character knowledge, but that is my goal. I like the idea of exploring the dark side a little further but I really don't think that is Bher. She is super stubborn and super impatient. She's already lost a ************** SPOILER AGAIN *************** person, friend's limb, her health and happiness. She is tired, frustrated and lonely since Xen left. I like the idea of the new mentor. Maybe that could be a new player who joins our table. We are always looking for new players.

20 hours ago, TaiChiSusan said:

MANY MANY THANKS To the kind and thoughtful responses to this question. I am honored by your interest, compassion and voluminous advice.

You trying to say I ramble on forever in huge posts?!?! Huh?! HUH?!? *puffs up like a Krogan* Just kidding. Hope our cumulative advice helps you find a way towards Bher's return.

Perhaps Bher needs to see what devastation the Dark Side can bring, perhaps meeting another Force User who is abusing that power would be the tipping point where she realises the path she is on is the wrong one. Combined that with the introduction of a new mentor to guide her through the process and you may have a story to tell.

5 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Perhaps Bher needs to see what devastation the Dark Side can bring, perhaps meeting another Force User who is abusing that power would be the tipping point where she realises the path she is on is the wrong one. Combined that with the introduction of a new mentor to guide her through the process and you may have a story to tell.

Sure, but the subject of the thread was "returning from the dark side". So I focused on that, assuming she would do it whenever it was thematically appropriate.

But yeah, a true dark side redemption isn't a redemption without a few villages of sand people under your belt I guess.

20 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Sure, but the subject of the thread was "returning from the dark side". So I focused on that, assuming she would do it whenever it was thematically appropriate.

But yeah, a true dark side redemption isn't a redemption without a few villages of sand people under your belt I guess.

I was thinking the "Ah ha" moment would be either in an Intermission episode (Something DfB have done in the past) or the first moments of a new series and new Adventure. I can just see that Sue needs Bher to change her complete philosophical outlook to be able to do this without meta gaming too much. So finding a starting point has to happen first, hopefully if that starting point is strong enough the rest should just fall out in the wash.

Your ideas are fantastic, don't get me wrong.