So investigating at a location with say shroud 1, i fail because i pull the autofail chaos token from the bag, can i now use look what ive found because i have failed by "1 point" or is there some funkyness here i am overlooking?

Thanks in advance

You can use LWIF but it would be a waste. The Auto-fail means you've failed, no matter what.

er i think your getting confused LWIF only works if you fail

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Fast. Play after you fail a skill test by 2 or less while investigating.
Discover 2 clues in your location.

you have failed, as a concequence of failing you draw to clue tokens, the question would be, have i failed by 2?

Yes, from what I understand your skill is set to zero on autofail. It's why there are some areas where flashlights auto succeed (auto fail sets to zero, shroud is zero, skill test would succeed no matter what token is pulled). See the rulebook for "Automatic success/failure"

So if you draw an auto fail token you can still LWIF as long as the shroud was 2 or less.

The problem there is im aware that if you use flashlight to set a shroud to 0 and you pull autofail, you still fail despite both "values" being zero, this has been confirmed in the FAQ, and this is whats raising the question among our friends, does autofail rather than setting it to 0, sets it to "the worst possible value that prevents anything positive from happening period" or is it set to actually zero.

If it's not addressed by the faq then you'd have to go by the rulebook, which says the value is zero. Id ssy it works.

(Also, that faq ruling makes no sense based on what they wrote for auto succeed in the rulebook, but, whatever)

29 minutes ago, DaeMord said:

er i think your getting confused LWIF only works if you fail

you have failed, as a concequence of failing you draw to clue tokens, the question would be, have i failed by 2?

Oops, sorry yes, I'm just so used to seeing it used in tandem with Lucky.

You are correct, assuming the Shroud value of the test was 2 or less.

19 minutes ago, DaeMord said:

The problem there is im aware that if you use flashlight to set a shroud to 0 and you pull autofail, you still fail despite both "values" being zero, this has been confirmed in the FAQ, and this is whats raising the question among our friends, does autofail rather than setting it to 0, sets it to "the worst possible value that prevents anything positive from happening period" or is it set to actually zero.

I agree, this is confusing and I would be interested in an answer as well.

With the auto-fail token, your skill value is set to 0 in addition to failing the test. It's just so you can determine how many points you failed by (a common requirement on Treachery cards in the encounter deck). Also, no final value can be below 0 in this game (modifiers can, though), so 0 is the lowest possible value.

11 minutes ago, VermillionDe said:

If it's not addressed by the faq then you'd have to go by the rulebook, which says the value is zero. Id ssy it works.

(Also, that faq ruling makes no sense based on what they wrote for auto succeed in the rulebook, but, whatever)

The entry in the RR about auto-success is a bit different. It says if you are automatically successful, like Wendy's Elder Sign ability, then The difficulty of the test should be considered as 0. Conditionals don't work in the opposite direction - it doesn't mean if the difficulty is 0, you automatically succeed.

Also remember the Grimm rule -- if the language ambiguous, you have to take the interpretation that is the worst for the investigators.

in responce to Ocufyox

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The Grim Rule only comes into effect if players are unable to find the answer to a rules or timing conflict, and are thus unable to continue playing the game. It is designed to keep the game moving when looking up the correct answer would be too time-consuming or inconvenient for the players. The Grim Rule is not an exhaustive answer to rules/timing conflicts.

as per the FAQ (emphasis mine)

Im very aware of what the rules say about the grim rule, i come here and post not for speed but because i would like to know the correct and intended way to play the game.

I am not a rules guru, and most of the time I come here to ask questions. At first I interpreted the Auto Fail Token as "you fail, and you fail by an insanly huge margin".

But the reference says: "If a skill test automatically fails, the investigator’s total skill value for that test is considered 0." under Automatic Successes / Fauliures. So, from now on, I'll play it that way that one can play Look What I've Found for Shrouds 2 or less.

1 hour ago, Network57 said:

The entry in the RR about auto-success is a bit different. It says if you are automatically successful, like Wendy's Elder Sign ability, then The difficulty of the test should be considered as 0. Conditionals don't work in the opposite direction - it doesn't mean if the difficulty is 0, you automatically succeed.

Ah, yup, that was the disconnect. Thank you, that was my bad.

O.K. so, just to summarize: I previously said I was confused about a Flashlight failing when Autofail is drawn even if the shroud is zero (and the test result is therefore equal to the difficulty). I think Khudzlin nailed it by saying

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With the auto-fail token, your skill value is set to 0 in addition to failing the test.

In the RR under Autofail token it says:

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This is the auto-fail token. If this token is revealed for a skill test, it indicates the investigator automatically fails the test (see “Automatic Failure/Success” on page 5)

So first thing that happens, when the token is drawn is that the test is considered failed: Hence, even a difficulty zero test (e.g. using flashlight on a shroud 0-2 location) will fail no matter what.

Then, on p5 of the RR it goes (as Seam quoted above):

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If a skill test automatically fails, the investigator’s total skill value for that test is considered 0.

The test is failed and in addition the skill value is considered zero. That zero is only important in determining the margin you fail by. Therefore, if the difficulty of the test was 2 or less, you should be able to then play look what I found.

Note that, as far as I understand (correct me if you think/know otherwise), negating the autofail should not work with Lucky. Whereas LWIF says play "after you fail a skill test", lucky says "if you would fail a skill test". You can still play lucky (because you "would fail a skill test") but I interpret that the word "would" means that lucky triggers before the token is counted. Therefore, you get +2 on the test, then the autofail token triggers and makes you fail and have skill value of zero.

59 minutes ago, ParinorB said:

O.K. so, just to summarize: I previously said I was confused about a Flashlight failing when Autofail is drawn even if the shroud is zero (and the test result is therefore equal to the difficulty). I think Khudzlin nailed it by saying

In the RR under Autofail token it says:

So first thing that happens, when the token is drawn is that the test is considered failed: Hence, even a difficulty zero test (e.g. using flashlight on a shroud 0-2 location) will fail no matter what.

Then, on p5 of the RR it goes (as Seam quoted above):

The test is failed and in addition the skill value is considered zero. That zero is only important in determining the margin you fail by. Therefore, if the difficulty of the test was 2 or less, you should be able to then play look what I found.

Note that, as far as I understand (correct me if you think/know otherwise), negating the autofail should not work with Lucky. Whereas LWIF says play "after you fail a skill test", lucky says "if you would fail a skill test". You can still play lucky (because you "would fail a skill test") but I interpret that the word "would" means that lucky triggers before the token is counted. Therefore, you get +2 on the test, then the autofail token triggers and makes you fail and have skill value of zero.

You are correct about everything. There's no reason to play Lucky after drawing the Auto-fail. Your skill value will always be 0. LWIF is valid, though, since it's contingent upon the failure. An Auto-fail is definitely a failure!

agreed, you could use upgraded lucky to draw a card, which seems like something of a waste in and of itself but if you desperately need to draw through your deck for something its a possibility

14 minutes ago, DaeMord said:

agreed, you could use upgraded lucky to draw a card, which seems like something of a waste in and of itself but if you desperately need to draw through your deck for something its a possibility

Well then just use rabbit's Foot!

why not both? you have still failed, therefore can still lucky AND rabbit foot