I really like the design of this one...

OK, I'm tracking a bit better UnitOmega....thx!

6 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

3 with TLT alone is 93pts. And you are wasting its 3die primary you are paying for.

No, this is one ship that shouldnt use a TLT. Ghost gets away with it both because doublefire and its wonky to fly due to large base and red moves, this thing has a 3Troll which indicates it will have a decent enough dial to fight up close - ABTs to middle finger those that dodge your arc will be best.

90 points.

And why this thing with "I shoot 3, TLT sucks on me"? Actually, TLT is even BETTER if you can shoot well! First, I can choose which is better for me inside my firing arc (if you are turtled tokens I will prefer a double tap), and second I will kick your ass if you try to dodge me boosting at 1. And with my dial/actions it will be difficult for you to get in R1 AND outside my firing arc.

Serioulsy, I don't get you guys. Sayin that fire 3 is bad with TLT is the same as saying Concord Dawn Title sucks because of Autothrusters.

Well...not even close. Fire3 COMPLETE the round, it covers the TLT weakness.

TLTs will be amazing on Scurrgs.

Yup.

Scurrgs will want TLT or ABT. TLT if you plan to use them as a turret/ordnance platform, ABT if you plan to use them as a dogfighter.

Unless I miss my guess.

18 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

This.

The Punisher should have been THE ship of her Wave, not the overpriced almost. If FFG had any balls they'd sneak a card in this pack that fixed the Punisher but was almost useless to this ship; it wouldn't be the first time. But alas, I can't see it in the preview.

Bomblet Generator, I'm betting, is going to be double-slotted. But the "fix" is the endless missiles of the aggroTIE.

18 hours ago, Thormind said:

Yeah, they gave everything to the Kwing (regen, slam, extra attack dices even on secondary weapons, TLTs, pwt, better dial, J!!!) and left the Punisher in it's miserable state. As if that wasnt enough they released an upgrade that greatly boost the power of bombs (Sabine) but gave it to Rebels.

To be fair, Sabine is the only bomb-related ability the Rebels have, and the only really viable* way to sneak in non-bomb auto-damage besides the notorious ABT+AC combo. They thought the no-weapons after SLAM was a good enough compromise and it is. The Punisher needs some kind of reliable firepower combined positional mine-drop trick like the K-Wing does.

Right now the best TIE Punisher build is Fenn Rau.

*There's Tun Numb and Blount but Ten is far too expensive and Blount is asking to be one-shotted

The T-Rolls part is the only humorous part. This game badly needs a dial upgrade for many of the early-wave fighters. Seeing a heavy bomber than can pull tricks you can't do in an A-Wing or a TIE Interceptor is fairly hilarious.

40K may change rules fairly often, but at least when it does, everybody gets to use the new rules. X-Wing has some ships in a 1st edition, and some playing in a 2nd edition. Then again, X-Wing borked itself with the maneuver dial's physical size representing an actual mechanical limitation to what ships can do.

The second falcon title to sloop indicates otherwise

Looks like the upgrade cards in this one help the punisher too... there seems to be a bomb-regenerating system in there, and some other bomb-related modifications. I'm looking forward to buying this for the cards and seeing what crazy things I can do to help out all my other bomb-dropping ships.

Am I squinting right?

Is this thing only 1 more point than a B-Wing/E2 with better slots, same action bar, +2 Hull Points, and a still open mod slot? Plus all the inevitable bomb tricks?

Seriously, at this point just F$^# scum and how much they put to shame everything Rebel. Just see Scum Y-Wings with EPTs. Or compare a Contracted Scout to the more expensive ORS or WSF. Dengar has always been the best of Dash+Han with none of their weaknesses (PS9, 2 Agility, Barrel Roll) with better upgrade slots and a much better dial. Now this thing, embarrassing the B-Wing, apparently.

Sigh.

18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Am I squinting right?

Is this thing only 1 more point than a B-Wing/E2 with better slots, same action bar, +2 Hull Points, and a still open mod slot? Plus all the inevitable bomb tricks?

Seriously, at this point just F$^# scum and how much they put to shame everything Rebel. Just see Scum Y-Wings with EPTs. Or compare a Contracted Scout to the more expensive ORS or WSF. Dengar has always been the best of Dash+Han with none of their weaknesses (PS9, 2 Agility, Barrel Roll) with better upgrade slots and a much better dial. Now this thing, embarrassing the B-Wing, apparently.

Sigh.

This.

....and we could add so much more to the laments of our women.

Yeah costs practically need a sticker sheet mod. Just go through and re-cost 50% of everything.

It's 1 more point than the E2 for +2 health, -1 PS and some different sets of upgrades. A B-Wing/E2 for instance has Crew, Cannon and two Torpedoes, which means theoretically it can EM and have torps. You can also equip multiple Bs with System slots, a highly valuable slot. A single H-6 can drop the crew and gain the System and unique Salvaged astros for 0 points. We don't know what the dial is like other than it has 3 T-Rolls.

Got to say though, if we're ass-pained about the H-6 (which Rebels get one of) being "better than the B-Wing" (which, I don't think scum actually have an equivalent off), you should also be angry at FFG for releasing the K-Wing. That has SLAM, costs the same for the PS2 as the E2, has to more Hull behind the Same agility, has a PWT 2 which might be better than the 3 ATK and has the turret slot AND does double torps and crew. It also has way less Red on it's dial than the B.

On 3/28/2017 at 5:41 AM, Voitek said:

9 hours ago, VaeVictis said:

The T-Rolls part is the only humorous part. This game badly needs a dial upgrade for many of the early-wave fighters. Seeing a heavy bomber than can pull tricks you can't do in an A-Wing or a TIE Interceptor is fairly hilarious.

40K may change rules fairly often, but at least when it does, everybody gets to use the new rules. X-Wing has some ships in a 1st edition, and some playing in a 2nd edition. Then again, X-Wing borked itself with the maneuver dial's physical size representing an actual mechanical limitation to what ships can do.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. There's a pretty clear pattern to the ships that have S-loops or T-rolls. First, you have Scum ships that used tactics, maneuvers, and ship designs that differed from the more orthodox Rebel and Imperial Militaries. Then there are the TFA-era ships, which have 30 Years of additional R&D behind them, as well as shifts in training procedures. The only exception is the Tie Striker, which diverges from traditional starfighter design by being primarily an atmospheric crazy, with different maneuvering capabilities as a result (And I imagine the developers concluded adaptive aielirons combined with a s-loop was awesome).

10 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Or compare a Contracted Scout to the more expensive ORS or WSF.

So being better than 2 ships nobody plays because they're so bad is an undesirable thing now?

When was the last time (even before JM5k) when an WSF or ORS made the cut at a large tournament ?

If FFG makes a mistake and releases a largely useless ship (like the ORS), should all similar future releases be constrained to be equally useless ?

13 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

It's 1 more point than the E2 for +2 health, -1 PS and some different sets of upgrades. A B-Wing/E2 for instance has Crew, Cannon and two Torpedoes, which means theoretically it can EM and have torps. You can also equip multiple Bs with System slots, a highly valuable slot. A single H-6 can drop the crew and gain the System and unique Salvaged astros for 0 points. We don't know what the dial is like other than it has 3 T-Rolls.

Got to say though, if we're ass-pained about the H-6 (which Rebels get one of) being "better than the B-Wing" (which, I don't think scum actually have an equivalent off), you should also be angry at FFG for releasing the K-Wing. That has SLAM, costs the same for the PS2 as the E2, has to more Hull behind the Same agility, has a PWT 2 which might be better than the 3 ATK and has the turret slot AND does double torps and crew. It also has way less Red on it's dial than the B.

That's what we say every single time a new AGI1 Rebel release drops. But the K-Wing and B-Wing are at least different beasts. A B-Wing can fight decently right out of the gate. A K-Wing MUST take upgrades to be anything other than a small Outer Rim Smuggler. Still, current design philosophy seems to be "pay 1 point more than a Blue Squadron, make more hull than shield - in fact, add a hull - and swap in a better dial." For all intents and purposes, the ARC-170 is the Rebel B-Wing, which even with regen needs Biggs to survive.

The G-1A is the Scum B-Wing equivalent, which swaps a shield for a hull, barrel roll for evade, 2k for 3k... and gets a white 4, a 4k and a green 3 theoretically in exchange for two extra upgrade slots on the B-Wing. But both are basically 8 health AGI1 Attack 3 brawlers.

The B Wing is probably at least a point over costed at this stage, which is why nobody uses them.

4 hours ago, LordBlades said:

If FFG makes a mistake and releases a largely useless ship (like the ORS), should all similar future releases be constrained to be equally useless ?

No. But it'd be nice if they went back and corrected a few of those mistakes.

That being said my tournament record with 3 WSFs is actually pretty good.

6 hours ago, Squark said:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. There's a pretty clear pattern to the ships that have S-loops or T-rolls. First, you have Scum ships that used tactics, maneuvers, and ship designs that differed from the more orthodox Rebel and Imperial Militaries. Then there are the TFA-era ships, which have 30 Years of additional R&D behind them, as well as shifts in training procedures. The only exception is the Tie Striker, which diverges from traditional starfighter design by being primarily an atmospheric crazy, with different maneuvering capabilities as a result (And I imagine the developers concluded adaptive aielirons combined with a s-loop was awesome).

No, the new ships got new moves. Simple as that. All the Scum ships besides the palette swaps got new moves because they were new ships. The YT-1300 got a Sloop (the only Rebel Sloop) because Rey bypassed a faulty compressor. The U-Wing got a (pointless) 0-k. The Scurrg gets a Tallon Roll... and that ship predates the Phantom Menace by five years.

12 hours ago, LordBlades said:

So being better than 2 ships nobody plays because they're so bad is an undesirable thing now?

When was the last time (even before JM5k) when an WSF or ORS made the cut at a large tournament ?

If FFG makes a mistake and releases a largely useless ship (like the ORS), should all similar future releases be constrained to be equally useless ?

Well, since you asked for empirical evidence: just prior to Wave 8 an ORS make the Top 8 at a Michigan Store Championship with over 65 people. Jonathan G took a WSF to the Top 8 of the North American Championships at Gencon, where attendance exceeded 200. I also saw an Ohio Store Championship with over 50 won by Dash + WSF. Just because you or your local meta did not find success with ORS/WSF does not mean the ships weren't competitive (though they were never at the top of "The Net-lister's Guide to Meta Copying 101," of course). But Post Wave 8, why bother with them at all when the JM5k did everything they did and oh so much more for 2 Points less than an ORS or 7 points less than a WSF? Even so, I'd reject your basic premise that a comparable ship not being at the top of the meta gives license to design a vastly superior ship in every way (almost same HP, radically better dial, superior upgrade options including the all-valuable EPT, comparable or better action bar (barrel roll), better Pilot Skill value, etc.) while then also costing it drastically cheaper (2 pts in the case of the ORS, a whopping 7 points in the case of the WSF). At that point, the CS vs ORS/WSF comparison isn't one of Slightly Overpriced Apples vs Reasonable Apples, but rather it's Slightly Overpriced Apples vs Absurdly Efficient Oranges.


So, I'd say you're demonstrably wrong, and quite frankly at this point anyone who says the costing of the JM5K wasn't a problem is either (1) lacking a fundamental grasp of competitive X-Wing or (2) trolling the boards. FFG is well-known to be very averse to issuing errata, and even they have already had two erratas because of the JM5k (the Deadeye and Manaroo nerfs), yet we're still seeing Triple Scouts and Manattani lists placing incredibly high in huge events, despite the erratas.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

a whopping 7 points in the case of the WSF

I know it's just splitting hairs, but it's 5 points.

God the things I could do with an extra 2 points on each of my WSFs!

9 hours ago, Lampyridae said:

No, the new ships got new moves. Simple as that. All the Scum ships besides the palette swaps got new moves because they were new ships. The YT-1300 got a Sloop (the only Rebel Sloop) because Rey bypassed a faulty compressor. The U-Wing got a (pointless) 0-k. The Scurrg gets a Tallon Roll... and that ship predates the Phantom Menace by five years.

Except the Punisher didn't. The Ghost and Phantom didn't. The ARC (flown by Galactic Civil war-era pilots) didn't. I guess the k-wing sort of did, but that was straight out of the source material. If what you suggest was true, all those ships would have tallon rolls and segnor's loops, but they don't. And it's probable that when the Wookie and Tie/Ag dials are released, they won't have those maneuvers either.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well, since you asked for empirical evidence: just prior to Wave 8 an ORS make the Top 8 at a Michigan Store Championship with over 65 people. Jonathan G took a WSF to the Top 8 of the North American Championships at Gencon, where attendance exceeded 200. I also saw an Ohio Store Championship with over 50 won by Dash + WSF. Just because you or your local meta did not find success with ORS/WSF does not mean the ships weren't competitive (though they were never at the top of "The Net-lister's Guide to Meta Copying 101," of course). But Post Wave 8, why bother with them at all when the JM5k did everything they did and oh so much more for 2 Points less than an ORS or 7 points less than a WSF? Even so, I'd reject your basic premise that a comparable ship not being at the top of the meta gives license to design a vastly superior ship in every way (almost same HP, radically better dial, superior upgrade options including the all-valuable EPT, comparable or better action bar (barrel roll), better Pilot Skill value, etc.) while then also costing it drastically cheaper (2 pts in the case of the ORS, a whopping 7 points in the case of the WSF). At that point, the CS vs ORS/WSF comparison isn't one of Slightly Overpriced Apples vs Reasonable Apples, but rather it's Slightly Overpriced Apples vs Absurdly Efficient Oranges.


So, I'd say you're demonstrably wrong, and quite frankly at this point anyone who says the costing of the JM5K wasn't a problem is either (1) lacking a fundamental grasp of competitive X-Wing or (2) trolling the boards. FFG is well-known to be very averse to issuing errata, and even they have already had two erratas because of the JM5k (the Deadeye and Manaroo nerfs), yet we're still seeing Triple Scouts and Manattani lists placing incredibly high in huge events, despite the erratas.

I never claimed JM5K was correctly costed. Just that costing it appropriately to ships that see very little (I was under the impression that they saw none, but you were able to find a few tournaments) competitive success would very likely result in that ship seeing equally little competitive success.

Now, FFG most likely was over aggressive with JM5K pricing (most likely because Scum needed the help at that point to be a meaningful competitive choice), but if they had modeled it after WSF and ORS, then we'd have another dud in the game.

45 minutes ago, Squark said:

Except the Punisher didn't. The Ghost and Phantom didn't. The ARC (flown by Galactic Civil war-era pilots) didn't. I guess the k-wing sort of did, but that was straight out of the source material. If what you suggest was true, all those ships would have tallon rolls and segnor's loops, but they don't. And it's probable that when the Wookie and Tie/Ag dials are released, they won't have those maneuvers either.

This, well typed.

....logic would dictate maneuverability would be best in a light, fast fighter, NOT in Bombers or repurposed freighters. When designing Scum, FFG slips from Cannon and logic. And if you're gonna claim "superior retro alterations" then the d*** things should cost waaaaaaaay more since they're so unique and took so much energy to retrofit. Frankly, the illogic in this facet of the game is stunning.

16 hours ago, Squark said:

There's a pretty clear pattern to the ships that have S-loops or T-rolls.

Yes. It's called "Released after September 2015"

Everything else you said is nonsense, lol.