1 hour ago, Darkcloak said:

I flew against double phantoms today. Hotcop and SJ on both if you can believe that. VI and ACD too. Kicked my butt. So they are still good if flown well. Eat a lotta turrets now but that was always a thing.

I'd like to see some Phantom changes. I was thinking make decloak an action that you can perform during activation, but you have to declare it before the activation phase begins. Seems fun.

Academy Pilot as the third ship? Oh did they just say screw it and go straight Rambo with just the two. What an odd list and sounds fun.

15 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I have to ask, and I hope I don't sound antagonistic here, but what squad(s) do you use? Do you have a favorite squad or archetype you like to run that happens to have a favorable matchup against TIE phantoms?

The reason I ask is because I felt Palpatine didn't need a nerf. Palp + 2 ships was always a good match up for my 5-ship, 15+ attack dice squad. But three aces became a lot more difficult. It wasn't until I started playing different types of squads that I realized Palpatine was REALLY powerful, and my ability to block aces was what won it for me. Basically, I was blind to how good he was because I unintentionally ran a counter, and assumed everybody could defeat Palpatine squads as easily as me (or rather, my squad). I was wrong.

Interestingly enough, I don't have an anti-Whisper squad, I constantly field squads of diversity as I get easily board. I have killed Phantoms with everything from TAP squads to RACs. I just took down an aces squad Saturday fielding the standard Whisper and I used B-Wings...let that sink in, B-Wings. They really do have some sweet pilot abilities that make them Ace counters and Dantels being able to fire missiles outside of arc is fun! ...that's what did her in that game; I took my friend a bit off guard. Conversely, I've also had great ordinance carriers wipe her out fairly easy. LRS Homer Bombers are great, that first pass the homers don't care much about her cloak. Squad Leader Sabacc took her to one hull opening shooting round for me with her fully buttoned up. And what is really fun is when your TIE D gets that first lick on her (it happens, let me tell you) then she can be up s***s creek. Conners are also fun...but I hate flying my K-Wing, I don't know really why. I guess SLAM seems so very too much for such a cumbersome, clunky in atmosphere looking cartoon ship to perform; it's like rubbing a cat the wrong way to me, it just feels wrong. Anyway, be creative. Just remember, in the end, worse case, she's usually throwing four greens when you can't get her to run naked a turn and really, that's not so bad these days. Hell, I've flown her in squads and had her cloaked at range three and thrown just one paint in that pile of greens and had to eat a perfect trio of crits from an opponent.

Great Palp story BTW. You did have a great counter squad. Yes, Palp is great, but there again, he's only effecting one dice...just one. If you throw gastly amounts of painted reds on the table, Palp can only bring a band-aid to the surgical suite.

I think sometimes certain ships or crew just get in one's head and make one wacky and illogical with trepidation. In the end, when it's dice, it's dice....and they have no master. My beefs are usually against those things that are dice-free effects or gimmes (like auto-hits) that take shields and or hull every time with basically no regard to the open dice exchange (see hot TLT thread trending now). Those you can ***** about freely, they deserve it. Phantom cloaking? In my opinion, no.

As someone who has only played post-nerf Phantoms, I really don't see the need to reverse it. It's not the greatest ship ever, but I've still won tournaments with Whisper.

8 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

As someone who has only played post-nerf Phantoms, I really don't see the need to reverse it. It's not the greatest ship ever, but I've still won tournaments with Whisper.

Yeah, but the thing is, it was.

OTOH, I am intrigued by the original notion of this post. . .6 Waves later, with c. 20 more ships to contend with, is it still everything that it was before?

Which also makes me wonder if nerfing and rules changes are really the best way to handle problems long term. X-Wing is getting to be a rat's nest of errata that does not show up on the cards. I really thing the game is going to become seriously cumbersome if the SOP doesn't change.

I mean just as a thought experiment, what if the Phantom had been banned? Would it have mattered? My understanding is that it is not showing up at tables anyways. Then, like maybe this season, Phantom gets unbanned. See what happens. Maybe things have changed enough that the Phantom is still not the greatest ship ever anymore. Or what if Whisper and Echo were banned, and different lower PS aces issued in their place? It ends the PS race, mellows the Phantom, and avoids red ink.

Seasonal bans would shake up the meta without adding new rules or new ships; and make players rethink their lists. To make it fair, each faction would lose their top dog for the next season of play.

When I first got the Phantom, I played a few causal games with my friend. I had no idea about the FAQ or the nerf until I brought Whisper to a tournament.

Anyway, pre-nerf Phantom just wasn't much fun, especially for two new players. I crushed him every time, with ease. Flying post-nerf Phantom is much more satisfying to fly, but that's just my opinion.

7 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

When I first got the Phantom, I played a few causal games with my friend. I had no idea about the FAQ or the nerf until I brought Whisper to a tournament.

Anyway, pre-nerf Phantom just wasn't much fun, especially for two new players. I crushed him every time, with ease. Flying post-nerf Phantom is much more satisfying to fly, but that's just my opinion.

I still wonder if pre-nerf Phantoms would still be the cat's meow with lower PS aces.

It sure would be an interesting experiment.

I could see it as the pilot ability of a ps 7 no ept phantom.

Before revealing your maneuver dial, you may decloak. If you do, receive a stress and a focus token.

I think it could be a title similar to how Duchess can choose to use adaptive Ailerons as she activates:

Pre-nerf Phantom (unique title) ~3 points - You may decloak right before revealing your maneuver dial. If you do, receive two stress tokens.

Quote: Sweet Jiminey now I remember whats wrong with xwing

So you would still have the option if you choose to play your phantom in a blocking style, or something more similar to how they were done before. It would make some interesting choices. One stress wouldn't be enough for this title if you could put it on Whisper. I'm not sure that its enough points because you can just use Capt Yorr to pull the stress (or crew, etc). Yup. We need to just let this be.

For anyone that wasn't around to experience the "wonderful" wave 5 meta of Fat Turrets and Whisper. The original decloak timing created a "Race to 11" for pilot skill that was just about as fun as trench warfare. We don't want any part of that garbage.

I would like to see some version of cloak that allowed a ship to remain cloaked until it fired but then it remains vulnerable to all incoming fire.

Stygium mumble mumble

Action: When you activate during the combat phase this turn, you may remove a cloak token.

Making it an action would prevent the ship from cloaking and then still shooting every single turn.

I understand the pre nerf Phantoms were too strong. What they also forget is the are nearly half of your squad points for Echo and Whisper. They can go down in a single round from a 360 arc, simple PS outclass, initiative loss, or a single mistake. The hyper aggression in the current meta makes them evaporate even when cloaked as green dice always betray you even when you have 6 of them.

A friend of mine had an idea, granted it's not practical for FFG, but it seemed fair. If the phantom dial had a secondary spinning section. You still preselect the decloak as it is now, however, it isn't revealed until the ship activates. It's a bit of both worlds. Definitely more of an X-Wing 2.0 fix as they'd have to make new dials. You could also treat decloak as a maneuver like the Striker so it can be performed even if blocked or hit asteroids.

A title revert would be the change to make for FFG as it's simpler. My idea for that is to change the timing back but make it a maneuver and if you overlap, skip the Perform Action step.

7 minutes ago, scifighter1 said:

I understand the pre nerf Phantoms were too strong. What they also forget is the are nearly half of your squad points for Echo and Whisper. They can go down in a single round from a 360 arc, simple PS outclass, initiative loss, or a single mistake. The hyper aggression in the current meta makes them evaporate even when cloaked as green dice always betray you even when you have 6 of them.

A friend of mine had an idea, granted it's not practical for FFG, but it seemed fair. If the phantom dial had a secondary spinning section. You still preselect the decloak as it is now, however, it isn't revealed until the ship activates. It's a bit of both worlds. Definitely more of an X-Wing 2.0 fix as they'd have to make new dials. You could also treat decloak as a maneuver like the Striker so it can be performed even if blocked or hit asteroids.

A title revert would be the change to make for FFG as it's simpler. My idea for that is to change the timing back but make it a maneuver and if you overlap, skip the Perform Action step.

That. is a really cool idea.

23 hours ago, TheRealStarkiller said:

I'd say YES ... but it seems that I am outnumered ^^

Yes you are!

But anyways ... Roll it back baby! We want the finest Secret Weapon of the Empire unnerfed!

And btw: Make the Hounds Tooth title finally worth it! You are going to at least save Bossk's equipped elite talent card + the points for the title and the ept!

23 hours ago, Lobokai said:

Honest question... Has the meta changed enough that the Phantom (and scum) could wait until revealing their dial to decloak?

That or maybe just make advanced decloak part of the ship so we can take another useful mod.

23 hours ago, Oberron said:

I could see it as a pilot ability to stay on the safe side

Indeed. This. Either that, or some kind of upgrade(and not a title). So you're giving something up to get that old ability back, and FFG can make sure the effect is properly costed.

Make Tie Phantoms the secret weapon of the Empire again!

Nothing fundamental about the game that made the Phantom the powerhouse it was has changed; having decloak as a reactive ability you can use(or not) to put yourself in the optimal position every time isn't any less strong today than it was 2 years ago. For all people that complain about turrets defeating the point of the maneuver game, the Phantom did the exact same thing to a greater degree. It distorted list building far more than anything else that's come along since, acting as a hard counter to everything that wasn't a higher PS, a turret, or both, and made an 86 point list a viable tournament winner. It was the first massive errata for a reason and it's nothing but a good thing for the game that it's gone.

God, no.

I'd like to see the nerf changed, in a way that would provide some incentive to play !Whisper, but not removed. No, no, no.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

God, no.

I'd like to see the nerf changed, in a way that would provide some incentive to play !Whisper, but not removed. No, no, no.

For example? Stygium Particle Accelerator for free?

5 minutes ago, GeneralBergfrühling said:

For example? Stygium Particle Accelerator for free?

The solution has to be much more nuanced than that.

(1) Decloak after movement.

(2) No decloak if your maneuver overlapped a ship or an obstacle (same limitations as the current understanding of the TIE/x7 evade action, i.e., a template overlap counts as an overlap).

(2a) The decloak itself can overlap an obstacle. If you land on an obstacle, you suffer normal effects. But the template can go over them freely.

(3) You may fire when cloaked, but at -2 red dice.

The reason this shifts power down the PS scale is that it is far, far easier to deny decloak by blocking.

33 minutes ago, GeneralBergfrühling said:

Make Tie Phantoms the secret weapon of the Empire again!

WOW, did you just send me on a whirlwind trip down memory lane

11 minutes ago, Otacon said:

Nothing fundamental about the game that made the Phantom the powerhouse it was has changed; having decloak as a reactive ability you can use(or not) to put yourself in the optimal position every time isn't any less strong today than it was 2 years ago. For all people that complain about turrets defeating the point of the maneuver game, the Phantom did the exact same thing to a greater degree. It distorted list building far more than anything else that's come along since, acting as a hard counter to everything that wasn't a higher PS, a turret, or both, and made an 86 point list a viable tournament winner. It was the first massive errata for a reason and it's nothing but a good thing for the game that it's gone.

8 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

God, no.

I'd like to see the nerf changed, in a way that would provide some incentive to play !Whisper, but not removed. No, no, no.

I seriously think that lower PSs would have solved most the problems. Instead of a race to PS 11, there would have been a multitude of existing pilots that could out maneuver the Phantom from the get go. If you want to justify this, it would be the idea that technology was being relied upon more than pilot ability. Granted, this would have only strengthened AceWing, but this is kinda happening anyway.

11 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The solution has to be much more nuanced than that.

(1) Decloak after movement.

(2) No decloak if your maneuver overlapped a ship or an obstacle (same limitations as the current understanding of the TIE/x7 evade action, i.e., a template overlap counts as an overlap).

(2a) The decloak itself can overlap an obstacle. If you land on an obstacle, you suffer normal effects. But the template can go over them freely.

(3) You may fire when cloaked, but at -2 red dice.

The reason this shifts power down the PS scale is that it is far, far easier to deny decloak by blocking.

But you must confess that 4 Tie Phantoms with SPA would be tempting as hell! At least as tempting as 4 Starvipers with AT!

On 27/3/2017 at 8:46 PM, gamblertuba said:

It wasn't just about balance. It was about fun.

Indeed. I stopped playing the game due to phantom and fat hans. The game just stopped being fun for me, specially since the next wave was decimator + dash ...

If anything, i would bring back swarms, something that i see the game is missing lately.

I wouldn't mind seeing an update to the cloaking rules that said 'you may discard your cloak token to fire during the combat phase' (note that discarding the cloak token doesn't cause you to decloak).

So SPA low level phantoms (and CLoaking Device Scummers) could cloak and evade, have AGI 4 until they shoot, then normal agi after that and no decloak movement, and high level phantoms could continue to shoot/cloak/decloak as before.

I think it would work pretty nicely.