Oh, how I've missed these threads.

Good times.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Then why did you describe them as the lesser evil before?

Because they can be the lesser evil and still be overpowered/undercosted.

It is, shockingly enough, possible for two things to be bad simultaneously.

you scruffy looking nerf herders

20 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because they can be the lesser evil and still be overpowered/undercosted.

It is, shockingly enough, possible for two things to be bad simultaneously.

And yet, it is still winning more then your pet peeve. Interesting.

Yes.

I don't disagree that that's true.

Things can be more annoying to fly against than things which are better.

56 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Fat Han still dies to alpha strikes, and has no regen. We also have autothrusters and better ships to fly against him.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

I think there are more than enough counters to Fat Han nowadays. He would not be the boogity-man he once was even if TLT is banned.

All these things also work for quad TLT right? Neither have regen. Both can be alpha striked. Autothrusters works against both.

So if we are saying Phat Han won't be a problem then neither should TLT really... Unless the point of this thread is talking about the NPE experience of TLT and not necessarily the power levels... In which case I would say you don't NERF something ONLY because of NPE. You could change how it plays without actually nerfing it. I think people calling for a straight up TLT nerf should be clear on what they mean exactly (and I personally hope it's not straight up nerf).

29 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because they can be the lesser evil and still be overpowered/undercosted.

It is, shockingly enough, possible for two things to be bad simultaneously.

Sorry, the last post was getting repetitive. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you seem to be saying. Jumpmasters, who have had at least three dominant lists and is mostly view as OP is not as bad as a six point upgrade whose worst incarnation hasn't won as much as the Jumpmaster lists? There isn't even a consensus about it being OP on this thread, let alone this forum. I'm all for a variety of opinions, but that one makes me question your logic.

14 minutes ago, Gibbilo said:

All these things also work for quad TLT right? Neither have regen. Both can be alpha striked. Autothrusters works against both.

So if we are saying Phat Han won't be a problem then neither should TLT really... Unless the point of this thread is talking about the NPE experience of TLT and not necessarily the power levels... In which case I would say you don't NERF something ONLY because of NPE. You could change how it plays without actually nerfing it. I think people calling for a straight up TLT nerf should be clear on what they mean exactly (and I personally hope it's not straight up nerf).

I was just countering the argument that a TLT adjustment wouldn't signify the return of Fat Han dominating the meta in any significant way.

Don't you dare try to put words in my mouth.

18 hours ago, Talamare said:

It is broken

It is dominating the meta

Tournament Players are either being beat by it or are using it

There, I think that covers it

Perhaps in your neck of the woods. It is a build that has been around for 2 years, if people haven't figured out how to beat it that's their problem. I don't struggle much against it (assuming roughly equally skilled payers of course)

RoV

Is this the right time to deploy a Chris Crocker "Leave TLTs alone!" meme?

I totally don't mean that.

11 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

For reasons you might read the thread to understand better

Jumps can be dodged and usually find it difficult to shoot in the opening engagement. TLTs can't as easily and don't.

I've read the whole thread and it's still left me unconvinced. The tournament data just doesn't support the position that TLTs are a problem.

Sure, nerf the TLT if you never want to see Y-Wings and HWKs hit the table again. Those other turrets that folks here are claiming those ships would start using are mostly just bad options.

It would be far better for FFG to just come out with one or two turret options that made TLT more of a choice, rather than the only playable option for ships like the Y and HWK.

And perhaps also take a look at ships that actually are problematic with TLTs, like the Ghost, rather than throw out the Baby with the bath water.

I don't much care for TLT spam but I don't really think TLT needs changed. All the range 1-2 turrets should be made 1-3 then there would be options other than TLT. They could also just release some titles for turret ships that give a price reduction on turrets under 6 points.

I am also of the option that the Autothursters mechanic should be made into a core rule for all out of arc shots(but not range 3 in arc) and the card itself be banned. I hate that only a select few ships get the option to take it but on the ones that can its auto include. I love seeing pilots like Vader but because he can't take Autos he might as well not exist. The Star Viper being the Autothurster expansion pack is a joke.

13 hours ago, costi said:

K-Wing has the most limited dial? Lol, the HWK says hi.

The HWK still has 1 more maneuver than the K-wing. Check it out.

14 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Sorry, the last post was getting repetitive. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you seem to be saying. Jumpmasters, who have had at least three dominant lists and is mostly view as OP is not as bad as a six point upgrade whose worst incarnation hasn't won as much as the Jumpmaster lists? There isn't even a consensus about it being OP on this thread, let alone this forum. I'm all for a variety of opinions, but that one makes me question your logic.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding here.

There are two scales in question.

One goes from 0 (so underpowered it's not even worth getting the thing out of the box/binder right now) to 10 (so overpowered it wouldn't be worth bringing anything else right now).

TLTs sit somewhere around a six for me on this scale (a bit OP, but not a lot, definitely beatable), jumps are more like an 8 (strongly OP, still beatable with the right list, but a tough matchup. Meta defining). 5 would be 'perfectly balanced'. It's really tough to get everything in the game to hit a 5 simultaneously.

The other goes from 0 (so irritating and/or dull that I'd rather concede the game than play against it) to 10 (I'm really happy to see someone setting it up because I know I'll enjoy playing against it). 5 would be neutral, I have no opinion either way This scale is much more subjective and personal to the player, I make no secret of that. it also varies depending on the list I'm running.

TLTs sit somewhere around 2 on this scale for me, K Wing bombers/TLTs are a 1, Miranda sits at a 1 or even a 0 if I'm not having a good day. There's literally no ship I want to see across from me less. Jumps sit around a 5 or a 6. Pre-deadeye nerf they were more like a 2 with most lists, but a 5 or 6 with a list specifically designed to kill them. They're powerful, but there are things you can do against them - get behind them, block their white sloops, protect the ship they have TLed, 2-round them where previously you had to PS kill them in the first round of firing if they had arc and range on something, etc etc etc. TLTs have a lot fewer options for counter play, because unless you donut them (and K wings don't even have that...) they WILL be able to shoot at the best possible target in range if you're shooting at them and don't kill them, and they WILL be able to do consistent damage on average.

It is possible for something to be more powerful than something else, but less irritating to fly against.

Or to put it even more succinctly: I came here to play a game of tactical manoeuvring, not a game of yahtzee. Even if the tactical manoeuvring game is harder and I'm more likely to lose it, I prefer it to the dice-off.

There's a reason most of my proposed balance fixes for TLTs add some element of having to actually fly well and make good tactical decisions to use them to their fullest - because that's the aspect of the game I most enjoy and most want to encourage.

2 hours ago, Azrapse said:

The HWK still has 1 more maneuver than the K-wing. Check it out.

The Lambda shuttle says hi. It has the same number of maneuvers the HWK does but doesn't like turning. The Y-wng also says hello, as the shp in the game with the least green maneuvers.

The Jumpmaster stands by with an air of quiet superiority.

18 minutes ago, Astech said:

The Lambda shuttle says hi. It has the same number of maneuvers the HWK does but doesn't like turning. The Y-wng also says hello, as the shp in the game with the least green maneuvers.

The Lambda shuttle has 1 more maneuver than the K-wing, while the Y-wing has 4 more.

6 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

The Lambda shuttle has 1 more maneuver than the K-wing, while the Y-wing has 4 more.

And neither of them are as good as the K-wing due to other maneuver factors - SLAM.

Just now, Astech said:

And neither of them are as good as the K-wing due to other maneuver factors - SLAM.

You are right.

Still, the K-wing has the most limited dial in the game.

6 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

You are right.

Still, the K-wing has the most limited dial in the game.

True, but that is only on the surface. Deeper analysis reveals that the X-wing has one of the worst dials, with Punishers slightly worse.

2 minutes ago, Astech said:

True, but that is only on the surface. Deeper analysis reveals that the X-wing has one of the worst dials, with Punishers slightly worse.

I'd trade the X-Wing dial for the Punisher in a heartbeat. Boost on the action bar? Wicked. Autothrusters, and I can actually get in a turning fight instead of defaulting to 4k.

You'd need to swap more than the dials ro get access to Boost and Autothrusters, unfortunately.

You'd need to upgrade to a T-70, for a start.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

You'd need to swap more than the dials ro get access to Boost and Autothrusters, unfortunately.

You'd need to upgrade to a T-70, for a start.

Since we're discussing the K-Wing dial in context of SLAM, I figured that Boost was used to offset the Punisher's dial.

Punisher's top speed is 3. It is the slowest ship in the game. The K-wing with its slam is the fastest ship in the game* (and has a white 2-turn, which beats the snot out of a white 3-turn). Then there's everything else, besides the dial, that makes it a Top-List-Tier beast.

And boost disqualifies your punisher from dropping a bomb, its raison d'etre, while Adv. Slam, conversely, helps makes it the best bomber in X-wing.

There's no metric that expains the horrible asymmetry between the K-wing and its wave-brother, the Punisher.

*burnout jank excepted, of course

38 minutes ago, banjobenito said:

Punisher's top speed is 3. It is the slowest ship in the game. The K-wing with its slam is the fastest ship in the game* (and has a white 2-turn, which beats the snot out of a white 3-turn). Then there's everything else, besides the dial, that makes it a Top-List-Tier beast.
*burnout jank excepted, of course

Any Shadowcaster with Engine upgrade can do a 7 straight.

*burnout jank excepted, of course