22 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

FFG should NERF the nerf threads. Any thread with the word nerf in its OP should be automatically locked.

But before that they should NERF the NERF the NERF posts...

11 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So now that the Imperials are finally getting TLT´s the demands for nerfing them begin again?

I have never liked TLT builds, but as Palpatine and Defenders were just nerfed, it would be a kick in the groin to do this now for Imperial players. Wouldn´t this have been done a long time ago if it was going to happen?

I´m ok with nerfing the TLT´s if we get our Emperor back as he was.

Obviously they can just nerf Rebel and Scum TLT

7 hours ago, Talamare said:

It is broken

It is dominating the meta

Tournament Players are either being beat by it or are using it

There, I think that covers it

Looking at the March 2017 numbers in List Juggler, I'd suggest the statements are incorrect once you actually *look* at the numbers and dig down a bit, instead of just taking a cursory glance at the top level of statistics.

Considering all tournaments, TLT accounts for 25.9% of all points spent on upgrades. However, digging down and filtering out: Other, Store Championship, Vassal (so leaving in Regionals and higher tournaments) it accounts for only 10% of these points. Flipping this on its head, and just looking at Store Championship numbers alone, it drops to 6.9% of all upgrades. Without doing a deeper analysis, I'd think that higher value for all tournaments would be skewed towards the number of Store Championships that happen compared to the higher end ones.

But to say it's "dominating the meta" is ridiculous.

10 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

But, IMHO, the twin laser turret is the biggest mistake in the game that doesn't rhyme with "dumpcaster."

do you have a problem with... the Shadow Caster :D?

Someone suggested a really simple fix to turrets, both secondary and PWT. I really liked it:

Secondary turrets: Allow range 3 defense bonus

PWT: remove range 1 attack bonus

Just that would probably bring turrets back to where they should be...

Eh. I'm kind of conflicted. TLTs could probably use a light tap with the nerf bat (upping them by a point, say, or giving an extra green die at R3) but they're nowhere near as pervasive, effective or easy to use as a lot of people seem to think.

Speaking as a perennial player of Imperial aces, TLTs are more fun to play against than the fat turrets that they killed, and more challenging to play well because they don't have Chirpy/Han's "Wait Till You See Where Everyone Is Then Boost Out Of Arc" shenanigans, or Dash's "Obstacles? **** Your Obstacles" routine to fall back on.

TLT should be good, or at least functional, against high agility targets- It forces a change in playstyle compared to how they usually fly against low PS ships. It should also be good against the low agility ships it was designed to prey on.

The main concerns I see is

1) Low-mid agility ships without repositioning ability suffer against them (Most noticably the iconic X-wing).

2) TLT Y-wings are only slightly less efficient than jousters like the b-wing, but have the enormous utility of being able to shoot out of arc. This makes them a more attractive choice than a jouster like an X or B-wing in many cases. Is this power creep? Well, sort of. They were designed to react to an existing imbalance. Call it stage 2 power creep, perhaps?

1 minute ago, Thormind said:

Someone suggested a really simple fix to turrets, both secondary and PWT. I really liked it:

Secondary turrets: Allow range 3 defense bonus

PWT: remove range 1 attack bonus

Just that would probably bring turrets back to where they should be...

The bolded suggestion has been around since the Wave 5 metagame, and it really confuses me. PWTs very seldom make range 1 shots. Indeed, they should be encouraged to do so, because that means they're not running away, shooting out their back end and arc dodging as lazily (but effectively) as possible. The problem is the mobility of the fat turret combined with their ability to stack mitigation against one or two attacks (on the assumption that they arc dodged or out-ranged the rest of a 4+ ship build). Forbidding them from firing at a target if that target is at range 3 and out of arc is a better solution. Probably too drastic, but it would actually address the problem, instead of further encouraging the problematic behavior.

The other suggestion would probably be better used as a TLT nerf instead of affecting all secondary weapon turrets, so as to not clutter future design space. Otherwise every future turret upgrade that could attack at range 3 would have to be comparable to TLT.

TLT's are ok. What really needs to be looked at are the stupid crazy Rube Goldberg-esqe lists that can be made where there is no thinking, and you get to do a million different things a turn.

It is supposed to be like a B17 belly gun. Linked 50-cals spitting out a hail of bullets. It is not cannon!

Drop the reds to 2 with a 3rd if the target is in range 1.

This will have it melt away from use except for a few spots where it can get lots of TLs (Ghost w/ Weapon eng and FCS) or it will at least force ships with TLT to at least maneuver with a bit more thought and consideration (that is supposed to be a big feature of this game afterall).

4 minutes ago, Squark said:

The bolded suggestion has been around since the Wave 5 metagame, and it really confuses me. PWTs very seldom make range 1 shots. Indeed, they should be encouraged to do so, because that means they're not running away, shooting out their back end and arc dodging as lazily (but effectively) as possible. The problem is the mobility of the fat turret combined with their ability to stack mitigation against one or two attacks (on the assumption that they arc dodged or out-ranged the rest of a 4+ ship build). Forbidding them from firing at a target if that target is at range 3 and out of arc is a better solution. Probably too drastic, but it would actually address the problem, instead of further encouraging the problematic behavior.

Speak for yourself, my RAC does it all the time. Once you're behind them, if you already have a TL, boosting into range 1 is better than a focus token.

I think TLTs are good at what they do, and are priced fairly for what they do. The only thing that makes them 'too prevalent/good' is when there's four of them (barring pilot abilities or upgrades, which are always the exception, never the rule.)

So why not just limit TLTs to 1-2 per squad?

8 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

So why not just limit TLTs to 1-2 per squad?

It seems adding "Unique" to the card would be an easy fix as it: A) doesn't reduce the card's abilities, B) doesn't increase its cost, but simply C) makes it so it cannot be spammed at all. In addition, other turret cards could see the light of day more often.

Don't worry, as soon as the Imps get these into squads and see some top 8 success, it'll be nerfed relatively quickly.

2 hours ago, Lampyridae said:

Very much so. Miranda requires quite a bit of skill as opposed to the Pavlovian arc-dodging response of super aces, or point-and-click of U-boat days. Definitely a fun ship to fly, as well as competitive. (As opposed to A-Wings which are fun but toothless)

Lol. Yeah, as if arc dodging is easy and bombing and TLTing off an auto regen, small base, SLAMing, high health platform is mad skills... wait? Are you being serious? I really hope not.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Speak for yourself, my RAC does it all the time. Once you're behind them, if you already have a TL, boosting into range 1 is better than a focus token.

A)This pre-supposes you already have a target lock. Not needing to spend the previous round's target lock is an infrequent occurrence.

B)Hundreds of games flown by many, many players during the Wave 5-6 tournament seasons would suggest your experience is an anomaly. I have to admit I'm confused by the idea of a PWT getting behind a ship that is not another Turret on a regular basis- Why on earth would your opponent not be chasing your end-game ship?

11 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Here is a better question: Are TLT's good for the game? I don't think we need them to keep Fat Han from returning us to the dark days of the wave 5 meta. Alpha strikes will wreck him just fine. I'm not going to cry for a nerf at the moment. But, IMHO, the twin laser turret is the biggest mistake in the game that doesn't rhyme with "dumpcaster." It's undercosted, metawarping, and boring as can be.

Nah, the biggest mistake of the game is distilling a complex space combat game down to 100/6. Things like TLT become an issue due to the format. But I digress. . .

6 minutes ago, Squark said:

A)This pre-supposes you already have a target lock. Not needing to spend the previous round's target lock is an infrequent occurrence.

B)Hundreds of games flown by many, many players during the Wave 5-6 tournament seasons would suggest your experience is an anomaly. I have to admit I'm confused by the idea of a PWT getting behind a ship that is not another Turret on a regular basis- Why on earth would your opponent not be chasing your end-game ship?

Because they're chasing your other endgame ship.

9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Nah, the biggest mistake of the game is distilling a complex space combat game down to 100/6. Things like TLT become an issue due to the format. But I digress. . .

TLTs are even better in epic.

9 hours ago, EYEL1NER said:

I don't think anyone would be happy. The TLT fans of course would be upset over the nerf, and the TLT haters would just move on to being upset about whatever the new thing they are getting beat by is.

It was honestly a joke spawned from a tired mind. The main reason I oppose most calls for TLT nerfing is because of my HWKs. I was at the point last night where, as long as my HWKs could still use it, I didn't give a ****. But, Marinealver made the good point that it would be in poor taste to remove the TLT from the broad market just as the Empire gets the chance to use them.

27 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I think TLTs are good at what they do, and are priced fairly for what they do. The only thing that makes them 'too prevalent/good' is when there's four of them (barring pilot abilities or upgrades, which are always the exception, never the rule.)

So why not just limit TLTs to 1-2 per squad?

And then you have ghost with TLT, Miranda with TLT, Palob with TLT, etc... It's OP even on single ships.

17 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Lol. Yeah, as if arc dodging is easy and bombing and TLTing off an auto regen, small base, SLAMing, high health platform is mad skills... wait? Are you being serious? I really hope not.

This!!

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

.....it would be in poor taste to remove the TLT from the broad market just as the Empire gets the chance to use them.

And that my friend is their dark plan....

58 minutes ago, Slugrage said:

Considering all tournaments, TLT accounts for 25.9% of all points spent on upgrades.

I think you are making the point that TLT is far too prevalent.

I personally hate them. Put it on a Ghost/Phantom and you are really taxing the game mechanics and playing something very different to a dogfighting game. It's a lot closer to 40k buckets of dice nonsense.

35 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

It is supposed to be like a B17 belly gun. Linked 50-cals spitting out a hail of bullets. It is not cannon!

Um, no, they have been a canon cannon since episode 4:

13 hours ago, Talamare said:

I'm more than willing to hyberbole it to 11, but it holds true despite the hyperbole.

It needs to be nerfed.

Dear FFG.

please ignore this op.

kthanksbai.

1 minute ago, Lobokai said:

Lol. Yeah, as if arc dodging is easy and bombing and TLTing off an auto regen, small base, SLAMing, high health platform is mad skills... wait? Are you being serious? I really hope not.

Yes, arc dodging at higher PS is easy. Why else do you pay 8 more points to get to PS9? PWTs are easy. Why else would you pay 12 points for Punishing One? Try outfly Soontir Fel or Han or RAC with T-65s - that is hard. Dropping bombs and SLAMs require more than simply dialling in a 2 green turn and reacting to what happens. All of that fun ends when you point ion weapons the K-Wing's way.

"High health platform"... 1 health more than a B-Wing? (And if you're flying Miranda you've probably spent 1 or 2 shields boosting your red dice)

Double post.