22 minutes ago, Porkchop Express said:

Fly your ships to R1.

Stay at Range 1.

......

Profit.

Not when playing with Dash...

TLT and TLT abuse are two different things.

Facing a list that has a turret is fine. I don't view miranda as a problem, nor the ghost in spite of how boring I find it to be. Facing a list that has multiple ships forming a 360 laser grid of death is a bit more irritating as xwing becomes more of a dice game. I don't particularly enjoy thug life or its variations but it isn't meta defining yet. I think if 3-4 TLT lists start to become normal something would need to be done, but as is, the alpha strike meta prevents that.

SHOULD A FIX BECOME NEEDED: I like the idea of reinstating range bonuses for turrets. It keeps things largely, functionally the same, and doesn't change much upgrade text (you'd need to limit Autoblaster turret to 2 dice). It reinvigorates over-costed and widely unused upgrades like dorsal turret and ion turret by giving them a range 1 buff. It doesn't eliminate the upside of TLT... It simply gives enemy ships the opportunity to achieve a numerical benefit through flying, and reemphasizes the ability of an alpha strike to missle/torpedo a Y from range 3.

Thinking about it more, I'd even agree that such a change would be good for the game (It would better balance TLT and the rest of the turrets all at once). I just don't believe the change is necessary. We don't NEED it.

Miranda's ability should only work on primaries

i wonder how well a universal rule that additional shots in the same phase with the same weapon are always -1 die the previous shot would work?

(OT) ... again?

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I never tried to indicate my dislike was not mainly subjective. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

I do think they're a little too powerful, I mostly just think they're too dull.

I'm hoping we'll see a n erratum prior to the aggressor being released but much more for the latter reason than the former.

I don't expect it

And that's primarily because in all honesty, FFG has bigger fish to fry. Going with your OP scale, a TLT being a 6 means it's only a little out of being on point. Now, compare that to where you put U-Boats at an 8, it would clearly need to be taken care of first. And that's not even counting the cards that are down at the other end of the scale that needs help. Maybe the best option in the future is to do something to TLT, but right now, it's not making the waves or sinking as fast as others, so it gets shifted to the bottom of the pile. And with more expansions, cards, and mechanics being added, it might stay there for awhile.

So, TLT overpowered and dominating? I tell you what, you count up how many TLT lists in this thread, then how many times Mindlink is used. Does that mean mindling is OP?

Of course not.

The sky is not falling, go about your business.

9 hours ago, Verlaine said:

This seems a strange way to limit something in any game. "It might be overpowered, but it's so boring to play that nobody will do it." So you're relying on two bad qualities to make the game good. It's not a logic that I subscribe to.

I wasn't suggesting that 'its so boring that no one will do it' is a valid defence of an overpowered card, nor was that my only point. Far more important is the fact that the 4x TLT list has too many easily exploited weaknesses to ever realistically be a threatening force competitively, and outside of these kinds of spam lists the TLT does not attract anywhere near the flak nor does it come anywhere close to breaking or warping the game. Some things hate it (low agility ships), others don't care (anything with Autothrusters). The fact that the list is mind-numblingly dull for both sides is icing on the cake, and I think it will say a lot about a person's attitude if they choose to fly it, knowing what it entails for both players.

Regardless, the key point remains that the TLT is nowhere near needing a 'nerf' of the same calibre as those we've just had, or indeed one at all.

*duplicate post*

I miss the days when people complained about 4x ICT Ys. Those were good days...

On 3/27/2017 at 7:52 AM, Darth Meanie said:

Um, no, they have been a canon cannon since episode 4:

Looks abot the size of twin 50s to me.

9 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Looks abot the size of twin 50s to me.

And they probably are, kit-bashed off some old B-17 model the design crew had lying around.

Almost certainly. Most of the Y-wing was bits of WW2 model kits. I remember reading an article about a couple of guys with the patience of saints who managed to track down every single kit that was used in building it, catalog them, and build an exact copy of the shooting model from them. Last I heard, ILM were actually requesting access to it because many of their OT shooting models are badly damaged.

6 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

I wasn't suggesting that 'its so boring that no one will do it' is a valid defence of an overpowered card, nor was that my only point.

You clearly said that if the card is overpowered - which might be the case or not, I do not know - then this is, at least partially, compensated by the fact that the play value is boring. I think that is an extremely flawed argument. It points at two negatives in the game and then tries to say that they cancel eachother out.

6 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

The fact that the list is mind-numblingly dull for both sides is icing on the cake, and I think it will say a lot about a person's attitude if they choose to fly it, knowing what it entails for both players.

And here you go making the same flawed argument again.

8 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:

So, TLT overpowered and dominating? I tell you what, you count up how many TLT lists in this thread, then how many times Mindlink is used. Does that mean mindling is OP?

Of course not.

The sky is not falling, go about your business.

See also my post where I repeatedly note that it's not just about what's over/underpowered, it's also about what's enjoyable to play and play against.

(Also, Mindlink is arguably dominant not because it in itself is super amazing, but because Scum have underpriced EPT ships with overly good dials to go with it).

30 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

See also my post where I repeatedly note that it's not just about what's over/underpowered, it's also about what's enjoyable to play and play against.

(Also, Mindlink is arguably dominant not because it in itself is super amazing, but because Scum have underpriced EPT ships with overly good dials to go with it).

Whisper/Fat Han were NPE too, but it just encouraged me to find ways to kill them.

*watches the argument going round in circles*

As in that instance (I assume) it's not that I CAN'T kill them, it's that I DON'T ENJOY killing them.

And as much as for balance, the 3 big recent nerfs have been about increasing the enjoyment of playing against those cards, by making them more vulnerable to well-chosen tactics of the opponent, or less automatically-chosen for the perfect situation - you can control x7s with stress and bumps, you can block and outmanoeuvre Mana so she can't pass tokens (and also, if you've cornered her with ordnance, she can't just lol and throw your locks away), they can't just save Palp for the perfect roll, they have to choose it in advance and take a risk that they might waste it, which encourages it to be used aggressively rather than turtlishly.

Etc.

That's the kind of change I want for TLT - something that makes it *interesting* to fly and to fly against. Something that makes it care about arc or range band or actions or targets rather than just 'don't hit rock, shoot and probably damage best target in range'.

To actually answer the point though: even once you'd worked out how to kill Fat Han and Whisper, I'm willing to bet Han in particular was still a chore to approach. Even now he's still a chore to approach with anything except Omega Leader IME...

20 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

That's the kind of change I want for TLT - something that makes it *interesting* to fly and to fly against. Something that makes it care about arc or range band or actions or targets rather than just 'don't hit rock, shoot and probably damage best target in range'.

I think the core of the issue stays in this statement: I beleive TLTs are way more different than just "go anywhere and shoot anywhere".

You need to control range, which in itself is kinda major, focus fire and get autothruster's aces in arc.

I might be in the minority here, but I feel like that playing with and playing against TLT involves much more manouvring that people give them credit.

It's true that with TLT in the meta it's hard to play some ships, but there are also 3 Jumps, 3 Ks, Kanan/Biggs and Asaji just to make some easy examples, which are all combinations of things that kick out something from the game

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I might be in the minority here, but I feel like that playing with and playing against TLT involves much more manouvring that people give them credit.

One of my local mates played Quad TLTs and *only* Quad TLTs all last year. He took them from game night kits to Worlds, never once changing his list. He won a lot of games with them that nobody else would have won.

But it was still ******* boring to play against, and many lists simply didn't have the tools to combat what he was doing.

5 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I think the core of the issue stays in this statement: I beleive TLTs are way more different than just "go anywhere and shoot anywhere".

You need to control range, which in itself is kinda major, focus fire and get autothruster's aces in arc.

I might be in the minority here, but I feel like that playing with and playing against TLT involves much more manouvring that people give them credit.

OK. So what if I don't have autothrusters? Literally the only thing you then care about is not hitting rocks and not letting me into range 1 (and with K Wings, the latter point isn't even a thing either, they have a PWT). Having accomplished that, what else is there?

I don't think TLTs make for the most fun games out there but I think nerfing/eliminating TLT would push out more than it helps. FFG has, with recent releases, tried to make ships that use the turret slot not need it so much for offense but the Y-wing and HWK basically entirely rely on their turret slots for it.

What if the disdain & subsequent alienation/outcasting of TLT players (especially quad TLTs) is strongly encouraged and becomes the norm in every X-Wing community around the world?

Would that socially force TLT players to reconsider their list?

I'm just annoyed that everyone else seems to have totally reliable TLTs. I am a Scum only player and had to fork out for a K-Wing plus separate cards to get the option for boring Thuglife, and the things still fail to hit. Twice.

Luckily the K-Wing can be butchered to make the Misthunter Warthog, when I have some spare time.

22 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

One of my local mates played Quad TLTs and *only* Quad TLTs all last year. He took them from game night kits to Worlds, never once changing his list. He won a lot of games with them that nobody else would have won.

But it was still ******* boring to play against, and many lists simply didn't have the tools to combat what he was doing.

We also have a 4 Y TLT aficionado in our group. He's nowhere near good as your mate since he has never reached the top of even one of our weekly friendly tournaments, but I understand how annoying is to play against the same list every week for months.

But Many lists don't have the tools to deal with some lists. How many lists can deal with Kanan/Biggs when Kanan has Rey and Finn? How many lists can deal with 3 Jumps? Is it an issue of feeling TLT more annoying than others thing? I am annoyed by high PS, high repositionable autothrusters aces. My lists are always made with something capable of deal with them, same goes for TLTs

20 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

OK. So what if I don't have autothrusters? Literally the only thing you then care about is not hitting rocks and not letting me into range 1 (and with K Wings, the latter point isn't even a thing either, they have a PWT). Having accomplished that, what else is there?

Not letting you into r1 is quite major thought, you are dismissing it as something easy to do. You also aren't considering that you need to keep out of r1 while still managing to shoot with all your TLT ships on the same target.

Facing TLT you need to control the range, exactly as you need to do against 3 Jumps and against Fenn Rau and titled protectorates.

TLT used to be oppressive when they came out, but this is no longer the case. I feel like that lots of your complaints can be addressed to a simple "I would like to play my favourite ships, TLTs are preventing me to do that" which is something that can be said to almost everything in this game

23 minutes ago, FlipmodeSH said:

I'm just annoyed that everyone else seems to have totally reliable TLTs. I am a Scum only player and had to fork out for a K-Wing plus separate cards to get the option for boring Thuglife, and the things still fail to hit. Twice.

Luckily the K-Wing can be butchered to make the Misthunter Warthog, when I have some spare time.

That bugs me as well. Kavil during the store tourney I had last week consistently rolled hit eye blank blank. EVERY attack.

I think Quad TLT triggers people because it feels like 'anti-X-Wing'.

It's something I've said somewhere else before, but a squad that is really oppressive unless you're very good is actually pretty poor game design, because the MAJORITY of players have a very bad experience against it. X-Wing tournaments aren't an exercise in imperically working out who the best players are and ranking them, they're an exercise in creating an enjoyable environment that makes players want to continue playing and buying X-Wing.