I hate TLTs probably because I like X wings and T-70s, which are both 2 agi and suffer greatly from TLTs.

2 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

I hate TLTs probably because I like X wings and T-70s, which are both 2 agi and suffer greatly from TLTs.

understandably so

3 attacks and the xwing is dead. Only safe spot is in range 1 - good luck getting in there alive. If there is more than 1 TLTcarrier then there is no safe spot, at all. But at least the xwing will shoot twice before he's dead *yay*

TLT has only 38% of 2 dmg against 2 naked agi. Poe is fairly resistant to TLTs.

It ain't TLTs that make X-wings suck.

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm not sure what you're not understanding here.

There are two scales in question.

One goes from 0 (so underpowered it's not even worth getting the thing out of the box/binder right now) to 10 (so overpowered it wouldn't be worth bringing anything else right now).

TLTs sit somewhere around a six for me on this scale (a bit OP, but not a lot, definitely beatable), jumps are more like an 8 (strongly OP, still beatable with the right list, but a tough matchup. Meta defining). 5 would be 'perfectly balanced'. It's really tough to get everything in the game to hit a 5 simultaneously.

The other goes from 0 (so irritating and/or dull that I'd rather concede the game than play against it) to 10 (I'm really happy to see someone setting it up because I know I'll enjoy playing against it). 5 would be neutral, I have no opinion either way This scale is much more subjective and personal to the player, I make no secret of that. it also varies depending on the list I'm running.

TLTs sit somewhere around 2 on this scale for me, K Wing bombers/TLTs are a 1, Miranda sits at a 1 or even a 0 if I'm not having a good day. There's literally no ship I want to see across from me less. Jumps sit around a 5 or a 6. Pre-deadeye nerf they were more like a 2 with most lists, but a 5 or 6 with a list specifically designed to kill them. They're powerful, but there are things you can do against them - get behind them, block their white sloops, protect the ship they have TLed, 2-round them where previously you had to PS kill them in the first round of firing if they had arc and range on something, etc etc etc. TLTs have a lot fewer options for counter play, because unless you donut them (and K wings don't even have that...) they WILL be able to shoot at the best possible target in range if you're shooting at them and don't kill them, and they WILL be able to do consistent damage on average.

It is possible for something to be more powerful than something else, but less irritating to fly against.

Or to put it even more succinctly: I came here to play a game of tactical manoeuvring, not a game of yahtzee. Even if the tactical manoeuvring game is harder and I'm more likely to lose it, I prefer it to the dice-off.

There's a reason most of my proposed balance fixes for TLTs add some element of having to actually fly well and make good tactical decisions to use them to their fullest - because that's the aspect of the game I most enjoy and most want to encourage.

Ah, thank for clarifying. This makes things make more sense. But, this also further indicates a subjective opinion rather than an objective opinion. Your main knock against it is that you think it's boring and don't like flying against it. Others have stated the opposing view that it is fine, which means there isn't a universal problem, but a personal one. I've got several personal NPEs, but I know it is on me to reduce their effect on my enjoyment of the game.

And finally, perhaps the clincher, FFG apparently disagrees with you. All three factions are getting a new turret carrier, with one of them coming with the TLT. The complaints on the forum aren't what FFG pays attention to, it's the tournament results, where TLTs have been seen, but don't nominate or push stuff out like previously nerfed items. Nerfing TLT might also have the effect of pushing out Y-Wings and HWKs, something FFG doesn't want.

In the end, kind of going back to the OP's post, TLTs have been here since mid-late 2015. The game has obviously survived. Plus, I seem to remember people talking about the meta being the most diverse it has been in a long time between the U-Boat nerf and the rise of Parattanni. TLTs were around then. Kind of damaging to the case that TLTs are destroying the game when they were around for one of the healthiest parts of it.

The right Poe build (thruster/cluster) is superb against low-mod tlts. Get good mods on them, he gets killed just like everyone else when they roll 3 red results.

Just now, SabineKey said:

Ah, thank for clarifying. This makes things make more sense. But, this also further indicates a subjective opinion rather than an objective opinion. Your main knock against it is that you think it's boring and don't like flying against it. Others have stated the opposing view that it is fine, which means there isn't a universal problem, but a personal one. I've got several personal NPEs, but I know it is on me to reduce their effect on my enjoyment of the game.

And finally, perhaps the clincher, FFG apparently disagrees with you. All three factions are getting a new turret carrier, with one of them coming with the TLT. The complaints on the forum aren't what FFG pays attention to, it's the tournament results, where TLTs have been seen, but don't nominate or push stuff out like previously nerfed items. Nerfing TLT might also have the effect of pushing out Y-Wings and HWKs, something FFG doesn't want.

In the end, kind of going back to the OP's post, TLTs have been here since mid-late 2015. The game has obviously survived. Plus, I seem to remember people talking about the meta being the most diverse it has been in a long time between the U-Boat nerf and the rise of Parattanni. TLTs were around then. Kind of damaging to the case that TLTs are destroying the game when they were around for one of the healthiest parts of it.

I never tried to indicate my dislike was not mainly subjective. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

I do think they're a little too powerful, I mostly just think they're too dull.

I'm hoping we'll see a n erratum prior to the aggressor being released but much more for the latter reason than the former.

I don't expect it

This entire thread is stupid, leave TLT alone. It balances the Meta and gives life to turret carrying ships.

TLT is fine as is.

Miranda however needs a nerf.. maybe when you use her ability on TLT it affects both rolls? I mean it counts as a single attack for rule purposes anyways, her ability should affect both rolls.

Regen a shield? Roll 2x two dice.

Spend a shield? Roll 2x four dice.

Seems fair to me and I'm a heavy Miranda player.

8 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

TLT has only 38% of 2 dmg against 2 naked agi. Poe is fairly resistant to TLTs.

Are you making that calculation using unmodified dice?

Poe with AT has a decent chance to avoid some damage. And he's probably got regen. That's one X-wing ship. How does Wedge do?

He doesn't. He dies. To crappy Y-Wings utterly ridiculous looking K wings, and soon stupid Tie WFTers.

Just now, Sir13scott said:

This entire thread is stupid, leave TLT alone. It balances the Meta and gives life to turret carrying ships.

TLT is fine as is.

Miranda however needs a nerf.. maybe when you use her ability on TLT it affects both rolls? I mean it counts as a single attack for rule purposes anyways, her ability should affect both rolls.

Regen a shield? Roll 2x two dice.

Spend a shield? Roll 2x four dice.

Seems fair to me and I'm a heavy Miranda player.

That woudl certainly help, but my preferred thing for Miranda would be to make her ability primary weapon only, thus actually giving her meaningful choices to make during squad building and during play. Do I go for reliable damage, or spike damage, do I go for reliable damage or regen?

On 3/26/2017 at 7:09 PM, PhantomFO said:

The only question is what could they do that would be fair without killing the card? Adding a bonus evade die for R3 might do it, or removing a red die against targets at that range.

I'm not convinced TLTs need a nerf. Much like Palpatine, I've just never struggled against them, except when playing opponents I would struggle against when they bring any good list. TLTs, like Palpatine, narrow the tactical approaches (which isn't great in a dogfighting game, don't get me wrong), but are not particularly difficult to beat if you adhere to those narrowed tactical requirements.

That said, the simplest nerf would be allowing defensive range bonuses on turrets.

Another possibility, though it would be difficult to word, would be to have TLTs attack twice, but only deal damage (2 [hit]s) if both attacks hit.

1 minute ago, BlodVargarna said:

Are you making that calculation using unmodified dice?

Poe with AT has a decent chance to avoid some damage. And he's probably got regen. That's one X-wing ship. How does Wedge do?

He doesn't. He dies. To crappy Y-Wings utterly ridiculous looking K wings, and soon stupid Tie WFTers.

Wedge would die to pretty much anything. His ship is too expensive and weak and he suffers. TLTs are just one of many ways to kill him.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That said, the simplest nerf would be allowing defensive range bonuses on turrets.

See my turret nerf thread.

What's worse, TLT Y-wing mirror match or good ol' TIE swarm mirror match?

Just now, GrimmyV said:

What's worse, TLT Y-wing mirror match or good ol' TIE swarm mirror match?

I don't think there's even a question that TLT mirror match is objectively undeniably verifiably worse.

Hot TIE v TIE action requires a great deal more skill and presents many more choices.

8 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

What's worse, TLT Y-wing mirror match or good ol' TIE swarm mirror match?

Are we even playing the same game? I mean that question in all seriousness. We are certainly playing for very different reasons.

For me? More ships, more maneuvers, no turrets, all day, every day.

I'm actually one of those crazy people that would take Super Horton with BTL, TLT, EPT droid, expertise and Vectored Thrusters.

The Swarm question was totally tongue in cheek for those who used to gripe about that in the real old days.

Ah. BTL-A4 Y-wings? Love 'em. Even make good sense fluff-wise.

Now here are replies I like!

Swarms and BTL-A4 are both brilliant, and original :-)

Edit: Dutch spelling and grammar check makes weird cross-language sentences....

8 minutes ago, Cununculus said:

Now here are replies I like!

Swarms and BTL-A4 are both brilliant, and original :-)

Edit: Dutch spelling and grammar check makes weird cross-language sentences....

He jammer, ik was net te laat!

probably a good idea to put a dot next to the TLT's name though. So far all the complaints seem to be tackling the situation whereby TLTs are used in large quantities

If Experimental Interface gets a dot next to its name, I dont see why not TLT

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That said, the simplest nerf would be allowing defensive range bonuses on turrets.

This. This would bring the little bit of balance back. If it's a range weapon, have range apply. These are not independent missiles or rockets. These are guns. Range should matter.

Even if the title of the topic is true, it would only be destroying the game for one hit per time

1 hour ago, Duraham said:

probably a good idea to put a dot next to the TLT's name though. So far all the complaints seem to be tackling the situation whereby TLTs are used in large quantities

If Experimental Interface gets a dot next to its name, I dont see why not TLT

Even if there would be a nerf, I would rather see the amount of TLTs limited to 2 per 100 points.

Fly your ships to R1.

Stay at Range 1.

......

Profit.

16 minutes ago, Porkchop Express said:

Fly your ships to R1.

Stay at Range 1.

......

Profit.

Get shot at by the k wing anyway. Don't profit.