1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

So, unless I'm reading this wrong, you just re-collide with the same obstacle if you try moving over it.

You wouldn't technically "re-collide" because the collision only occurs if you weren't already touching the terrain. However, I'm currently leaning toward your interpretation that you cannot move through terrain.

The only way to move through terrain would be to enter it on one turn and exit it the next turn. If it doesn't have enough capacity for your unit, then it is a barrier to movement.

11 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

You wouldn't technically "re-collide" because the collision only occurs if you weren't already touching the terrain. However, I'm currently leaning toward your interpretation that you cannot move through terrain.

The only way to move through terrain would be to enter it on one turn and exit it the next turn. If it doesn't have enough capacity for your unit, then it is a barrier to movement.

A distinction that is both important, and I rather like.

Since we are so limited in the number of terrain pieces we can use, making terrain easily "bunny hopped" would limit the strategic impact of terrain placement.

EDIT: Also, considering some terrain causes damage or panic when you collide with it, it wouldn't seem to follow that you could sidle up next to it real close then jump over it without taking damage. You'd still be passing through it, obviously.

With that in mind, it's good to know that you can't re-collide, so you won't suffer damage every time you try to move, just the first time.

Adding a couple of relevant pieces of information:

Quote

RRG PG 15, #59, Obstacles

An obstacle is any game object on the play area that units can collide with while moving

59.1 Obstacles include
- Other units, both enemy and allied
- All terrain
- The edges and all area outside the play area

59.2 Obstacles block line of sight when a unit is performing a ranged attack action. (There is one terrain type that ignores this, but still blocks movement)

59.3 If the unit would overlap no more than a single tray of an allied unit during a move and does not overlap any part of that allied unit at the end of the move , that allied unit is not treated as an obstacle, and does not cause a collision.

Bolded the important part. Based on the way this is worded, terrain DEFINITELY DOES prevent you from bunny hopping over it, since we clearly distinguish overlapping during a move and overlapping at the end of a move.

ALSO, friendly units can be maneuvered around to some degree so long as you don't land on them or overlap more than one tray while moving.

Just to head off complaints at the pass... remember people, this is a game of POSITION. Position and maneuver. If your positioning sucks, you're going to suffer for it, and if you take big, powerful units, they're not going to be as easy to position or maneuver as smaller units.

@Klaxas can you please give a measurement of the included terrains

thanks

14 minutes ago, Felchawe said:

@Klaxas can you please give a measurement of the included terrains

thanks

cant seem to find my tape measure so these are approximations.

2 of them are small and identical. roughly the size of a tray. 1 is large and rectangular about 3.5 by 2.5 trays, and one is meduim, about 2.5 by 2 trays.

4 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

So I'm seeing "After a unit is performs (minor error here it seems) a march or shift action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle.

However, under Movement (Pg 14 RRG) I'm seeing "To move a unit... (describes locking the template in place) ... Then, the player holds the movement template firmly against the play surface and slides the unit along the template until the same tray edge that was aligned with the template's start guide is aligned with the template's end guide."

Further down, subsection 55.3 "If a unit would overlap an obstacle while moving , that unit's movement is halted. Then, the unit slides backward along the movement template until it is touching the obstacle, but not overlapping it. The unit collides with that obstacle"

So, unless I'm reading this wrong, you just re-collide with the same obstacle if you try moving over it.

The bit under collision would seem to imply you can't collide with the same obstacle twice, but movement clearly stipulates that you slide along the template, and if at any point you overlap, you stop and move back to collision.

EDIT: What we need to know is, what does "While moving" mean? Does it mean just the final position, or does it mean at any point along the intended path? The RRG definition of "while" says "a while effect is in effect for the entire duration of the specified event, and since movement involves actually sliding along the template, I have my doubts that you can just hop over terrain.

Excellent points, but since collision mentions that it counts for terrain that you did not start the turn in contact with, and that is more specific and simple to use than a complicated reading involving when movement starts, I'm willing to bet money that you ignore terrain that you start your movement on. It also means that all the gamey nonsense that I pointed out earlier is avoided

1 hour ago, Taki said:

Excellent points, but since collision mentions that it counts for terrain that you did not start the turn in contact with, and that is more specific and simple to use than a complicated reading involving when movement starts, I'm willing to bet money that you ignore terrain that you start your movement on. It also means that all the gamey nonsense that I pointed out earlier is avoided

It's not a complicated reading, it's the third bullet under the basic rules for movement, and it's further supported by bullets under #59 Obstacles and #60 Overlapping.

Specifically, Collision says "After a unit performs a march or shift", you'd go to execute march and, according to the basic movement rules, you'd place the movement template and begin to slide along it, you'd overlap, then stop, then wind up in the same spot. Then you'd go to the Collision rules, determine that you were already touching that obstacle, and not suffer negative effects such as panic or damage.

When movement starts wouldn't seem relevant, since Collision is explicitly determined after movement has completed, and doesn't influence where or how you can move in any way. Sure, you haven't collided. You haven't moved, either.

In other words, I'll happily take that bet.

EDIT: The movement rules in this game are more similar to those of X-Wing than Armada, that is to say you seem to actually physically move along the template, not merely appearing at the end point, thus the rules for moving through and overlapping friendly units. You can NEVER stop in a position where you are overlapped, but you ARE considered to overlap if you do so at any point along the template.

1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

It's not a complicated reading, it's the third bullet under the basic rules for movement, and it's further supported by bullets under #59 Obstacles and #60 Overlapping.

Specifically, Collision says "After a unit performs a march or shift", you'd go to execute march and, according to the basic movement rules, you'd overlap, then stop, then wind up in the same spot. Then you'd go to the Collision rules, determine that you were already touching that obstacle, and not suffer negative effects such as panic or damage.

When movement starts wouldn't seem relevant, since Collision is explicitly determined after movement has completed, and doesn't influence where or how you can move in any way. Sure, you haven't collided. You haven't moved, either.

In other words, I'll happily take that bet.

kk I guess we're on, wonder if they'll do an errata/faq if we ask for it.

1 minute ago, Taki said:

kk I guess we're on, wonder if they'll do an errata/faq if we ask for it.

The easiest answer is always to simply email FFG. They issue clarifications via email all the time.

37 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

The easiest answer is always to simply email FFG. They issue clarifications via email all the time.

Ok, will you do the honors or shall I?

I will!

EDIT: I submitted the rules question and will post the response here when I get it.

Since the rules are not officially released, they may not answer. Then again, 1500-2000 copies are out in the wild, so maybe they do.

So I was thinking small units of Oathsworn cavalry being neat terrain hoppers with their ability to move+move. But then I noticed 81.2 says all actions remaining after you collide and choose to occupy are cancelled, so this would be wasted.

With 81.4, I could see terrain placement as a clever way to slightly speed up runegolem though, if you placed it so the first move will just barely overlap a long terrain piece. The trick is when you exit terrain you are just placed with your back touching the terrain, so your speed doesn't matter. From reading 18.1, you also wouldn't be able to charge out unless the enemy is the perfect distance to slot right between them and the terrain, so that they are touching but not overlapping. There will be a sweet spot to avoid near terrain with melee units in it. As long as you are too far to contact or too close to exit you should be ok. Keep in mind they could charge out at a wierd angle since you can exit anywhere your back trays are in contact without overlapping, and as long as they touch you then they can square up before attacking. It would probably be a weak attack since they couldn't move into having their trays in good alignment next to terrain, but if you swing a corner on a 6 tray this could make a crazy charge. Also, since the distance doesn't matter for the move they would always charge with the fastest initiative movement on their dial.

2 hours ago, drkpnthr said:

So I was thinking small units of Oathsworn cavalry being neat terrain hoppers with their ability to move+move. But then I noticed 81.2 says all actions remaining after you collide and choose to occupy are cancelled, so this would be wasted.

With 81.4, I could see terrain placement as a clever way to slightly speed up runegolem though, if you placed it so the first move will just barely overlap a long terrain piece. The trick is when you exit terrain you are just placed with your back touching the terrain, so your speed doesn't matter. From reading 18.1, you also wouldn't be able to charge out unless the enemy is the perfect distance to slot right between them and the terrain, so that they are touching but not overlapping. There will be a sweet spot to avoid near terrain with melee units in it. As long as you are too far to contact or too close to exit you should be ok. Keep in mind they could charge out at a wierd angle since you can exit anywhere your back trays are in contact without overlapping, and as long as they touch you then they can square up before attacking. It would probably be a weak attack since they couldn't move into having their trays in good alignment next to terrain, but if you swing a corner on a 6 tray this could make a crazy charge. Also, since the distance doesn't matter for the move they would always charge with the fastest initiative movement on their dial.

81.4 says a unit cannot be overlapping or touching another obstacle. And units count as obstacles, meaning no charges.

2 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

81.4 says a unit cannot be overlapping or touching another obstacle. And units count as obstacles, meaning no charges.

Are you saying you can't perform a charge when you exit terrain? I don't think that's quite right. Article 81.4 is saying that when you exit the terrain, you can't place your unit such that it is overlapping another obstacle (including other units), but that doesn't mean that the subsequent movement can't overlap other obstacles. You should be able to charge out of terrain just fine.

17 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Are you saying you can't perform a charge when you exit terrain? I don't think that's quite right. Article 81.4 is saying that when you exit the terrain, you can't place your unit such that it is overlapping another obstacle (including other units), but that doesn't mean that the subsequent movement can't overlap other obstacles. You should be able to charge out of terrain just fine.

I could be reading it wrong, but I don't think that's right.

"Instead, the unit is placed on the play area such that one of it's tray edges is touching the terrain after it just exited and none of it's tray edges are touching another obstacle."

Unless there is some way to move and charge as your modifier, you can't be in combat after exiting terrain. Maybe in the future there will be some way to combo something like Aggressive Cornicen with the "modifier" move on the Oathsworn Cavalry, but I don't see how it'd be possible right now.

4 minutes ago, MysteriousRacerX said:

I could be reading it wrong, but I don't think that's right.

"Instead, the unit is placed on the play area such that one of it's tray edges is touching the terrain after it just exited and none of it's tray edges are touching another obstacle."

Unless there is some way to move and charge as your modifier, you can't be in combat after exiting terrain. Maybe in the future there will be some way to combo something like Aggressive Cornicen with the "modifier" move on the Oathsworn Cavalry, but I don't see how it'd be possible right now.

Okay, I'm starting to doubt my interpretation, but I can't find the part you quoted. Which section is that in?

That quote is from the "Learn to Play" booklet, Page 16.

But yeah, looking at your original quote, there is no "subsequent movement" unless it's performed a modifier. You skip the actual move you dialed up, and just place your unit in contact with the terrain edge.

I think you aren't reading the specific loophole I'm talking about. This is going to be very similar to the idea in XWing where you can be touching an enemy ship without colliding to get them in both your front and back arcs.

Basically, the idea would be thus: Your unit is occupying a terrain piece, and an enemy is close enough that you could theoretically collide with them when leaving the terrain piece, but not close enough that they are touching the terrain (the 'sweet spot'). You declare a Move+Charge order (the distance of the move doesn't matter, so you pick whatever your lowest initiative is to go before your enemy can move away or attack). When you move your unit out of the terrain, you must place it so that its rear edge is touching the terrain piece, and so that it is not overlapping any obstacle (terrain, friendly units, and enemy units, including the terrain you just left and the enemy you are charging). The rules for charging just state that you must successfully end touching an enemy unit with your front edge. So to be successful, you place your unit so that it is touching the enemy but not overlapping anything, rotating so that your back edge is still touching the terrain piece. After a successful placement, the normal charge rules take over because you are touching an enemy, you get to square up and then make an attack.

TLDR: Charge requires you end a move touching, leaving terrain requires that you are not overlapping OR TOUCHING , which are different states for placement. meaning you can't charge out of terrain.

19 minutes ago, drkpnthr said:

I think you aren't reading the specific loophole I'm talking about. This is going to be very similar to the idea in XWing where you can be touching an enemy ship without colliding to get them in both your front and back arcs.

Basically, the idea would be thus: Your unit is occupying a terrain piece, and an enemy is close enough that you could theoretically collide with them when leaving the terrain piece, but not close enough that they are touching the terrain (the 'sweet spot'). You declare a Move+Charge order (the distance of the move doesn't matter, so you pick whatever your lowest initiative is to go before your enemy can move away or attack). When you move your unit out of the terrain, you must place it so that its rear edge is touching the terrain piece, and so that it is not overlapping any obstacle (terrain, friendly units, and enemy units, including the terrain you just left and the enemy you are charging). The rules for charging just state that you must successfully end touching an enemy unit with your front edge. So to be successful, you place your unit so that it is touching the enemy but not overlapping anything, rotating so that your back edge is still touching the terrain piece. After a successful placement, the normal charge rules take over because you are touching an enemy, you get to square up and then make an attack.

TLDR: Charge requires you end a move touching, leaving terrain requires that you are not overlapping, which are different states for placement.

Rules Reference 81.4 bulletin 3: When a unit exits a piece of terrain, that unit cannot be overlapping or touching any other obstacle.

No touching= no charge

I hear you drkpnthr, but it looks like "Learn to Play" and "Rules Reference" both specifically point out that you can't be touching.

33 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Rules Reference 81.4 bulletin 3: When a unit exits a piece of terrain, that unit cannot be overlapping or touching any other obstacle.

No touching= no charge

And, of course, enemy units are defined explicitly as obstacles.

Ah! You guys are right, somehow I had missed the 'or touching' part of that rule. So modifying with a charge would just cause you to take a panic automatically, and is therefore stupid.

The other idea I had would be if you could use Aggressive Cornicen and a unit that allows a move as a modification, but so far only the Oathsworn and Carrion Lancer have that option, and AC is restricted to infantry only. OathCav and CLancer both are able to do a second move after exiting terrain though, so thats something interesting to think of. A unit with Wind Rune could use a special to shift and reform after exiting terrain too.

24 minutes ago, drkpnthr said:

Ah! You guys are right, somehow I had missed the 'or touching' part of that rule. So modifying with a charge would just cause you to take a panic automatically, and is therefore stupid.

The other idea I had would be if you could use Aggressive Cornicen and a unit that allows a move as a modification, but so far only the Oathsworn and Carrion Lancer have that option, and AC is restricted to infantry only. OathCav and CLancer both are able to do a second move after exiting terrain though, so thats something interesting to think of. A unit with Wind Rune could use a special to shift and reform after exiting terrain too.

This seems like a fun combo.

Bait a less maneuverable unit into approaching occupied terrain. Pop out, wind rune shift around to a flank, hit them next turn with a flank charge.

Terrain Question

I have a unit of archers in a forest.. 2 trays wide.. An enemy collides with the forest but only barely touching with their outer tray. their unit is 3 trays wide.. I know the edges are consider to be touching, but does mean all 3 trays of the enemy are touching my entire front rank. I believe this is true, but does that mean, we are fully engaged to the bitter end? So they kill 1 try of arches, and they continue to attack with all modifies as if 3 ranks were still engaging me.

Follow-up question - The enemy takes enough causalities and decides to take them from tray touching the terrain, Would combat end, when that tray is removed.