As I arrived home from work today, the UPS trick was literally leaving my driveway, having just delivered Runewars! I was in gaming bliss. The components of te game are amazingly high quality, and have convinced my wife and me to try and paint all 192 minis!

I setup a 2-player gameboard and went through one year to see the game in action and teach the rules to my wife. The board was funky, and both players (elves and undead) had obly two territories bordering their home territories, and all of those contained neutral units (3 of said contained 2 nuetrals, and one contained "only" one hellhound).

The elfs first order was therefore Mobilize. They luckily got extra units due to the spring event, and sent 4 units to slaughter the territory containing two razorwings, which they did with no problem. Here's the question:

Mobilize allowed the elfs to activate a second territory (from the supremacy bonus). When a second territory was activated, could units that did not START in a territory containing an activation marker move THROUGH a territory containing an activation marker to reach the newly activated territory?

Our feeling was no, that once the troops entered the previously activated territory (while attempting to get to the final destination) that they would not be allowed to leave due to the activation marker, and thus the movement would be invalid (and could not be performed at all). However, it was not 100% clear in the rules if this was actually the way it works.

What do you all think? It does seem like it would be a common strategy to take a territory with Mobalize and then send a second wave of troops through the newly taken territory to effectively push your boarders by two hexes in one season if allowed, though again we decided that it was not.

I don't think the activated area would matter. Having different units walk through a hex with an activation marker wouldn't have any magic effect causing them to stop. The marker is just the visual indication of the concept that the units have already had their move this season.

There's nothing in the rules that would stop you from moving over an activated area (units are only ever said to move out of the hex from which they originate, not any hex they enter on the way to their destination). Keep in mind, however, that you can only start one battle per Mobilize order, even with the supremacy bonus. If you fought a battle with neutral units with the first activation, you could activate another and move units there, but you could not fight a battle. If the second area were occupied by neutral units you would have to attempt diplomacy, and if they did not join you or were not forced to retreat, you would have to retreat yourself. If it were occupied by another player's units, you could not move units there.

broken said:

This is not correct. The units may not move THROUGH a territory containing enemy or neutral troops en route to their destination. They also can't move through mountains or rivers (i know, except for winter). So there is prescedent that the actual path they take matters. Furthermore, the rules explicitly state that HEROES are not stopped when moving through activation markers. By my mind, this loosely implies that units ARE stopped when moving through activation markers.

Since the path the units take matters and since the heroes are specifically given an exception to the activation marker rules, it seems most likely to me that the units can NOT pass "through" activation markers.

But this is why I started this topic, hoping that some would agree and some disagree. Then maybe Cory will let us know how it is supposed to be played :+)

I would say it's fine to move through an activated hex as long as it doesn't contain enemy (or unaligned neutral) units. This is how it works in TI3, which also uses activation markers in hexes as a method of limiting units to 1 move action per game round. Comparisons have been made between the two games' mechanics before, and they were both designed by Corey, so I don't think this is entirely out of the blue.

The point about it explicitly stating heroes can do this but not units is certainly something to consider in this debate, but personally I try not to invoke rules that aren't actually written.

I agree and am torn because it does not say that you can move through an activation mraker and it specifically says that you can not move out of one.

Steve-O said:

I think that's just to cement that heroes aren't units and activation markers simply aren't relevant to them.

I could read the rules either way, but it seems more sensible to treat an activation marker as a "movement exhausted" reminder rather than any sort of physical barrier. Plus, as Steve-O mentioned, TI3 has a similar mechanic that does allow moving through activated hexes.

I think it is ambiguous, and I personally don't like borrowing rules from other games in order to exaplain something. It may well be that the activation markers work like TI3, but I feel more solid making an inferrance from rules about heroes in this game, than an inferrance on an entirely seperate game. Hopefully Corey can shed some light on this soon, I am introducing the game to my group tonight!

Asylur said:

When it' s ambiguous, go with what makes the most sense until a clarification is issued.

Does it make more sense that the rule is intended to avoid double-moving units in a year or that a giant cardboard marker has magically blocked the way of units moving for the first time that year? I'm being somewhat snarky, but the intent of the rule seems much more likely to favor one interpretation than the other.

ckessel said:

Really? It is CLEAR to me that if you use an Stratagize order to move troops into a a territory that contains an activation marker than on a subsequent turn they can NOT continue moving, even though they were not part of the initial order that activated the territory. It is also CLEAR that heroes are not subject to their movement ending from an activation marker "mid-move".

Why, then, is it so clear and reasonable that units can move through a marker on a conquer/mobilize, but get stuck for a year with a strategize?

Asylur said:

No, what I said was, in fact, correct. Note that you used the word "through" and I used the words "out of". The rules for activation markers state that units may not move "out of" an area containing an activation marker. It does not use the word "through". Units are only ever said to move "out of" as opposed to "through" the hex from which they originate, not any hex they enter on the way to their destination. Units are said to move "through" any hex they enter on the way to their destination.

Additionally, as has already been stated, Runewars is like TI3 in many ways. In TI3, you can move through systems you have activated, but may not move units out of systems you have activated. You may sometimes move units into or build units in systems that have already been activated, but they may not move out of the system until the command counter (activation token) is removed the following game round. Why would FFG change their activation mechanic without explicitly saying so?

Are you really saying that the act of moving through a hex does not include moving out of it? Are the units somehow warping?

With Mobilize/Conquer you activate an area and move units into the area you activated . The only area that you are moving into , in game terms, is the activated area. It follows that if you did not move into an area at some point, you cannot be said to move out of that area. If your movement path happens to contain some area that is not the currently activated area, then you are merely moving through that area. So yes, I am saying that, in game terms , you do not move out of areas which you only moved through rather than into .

Wow, that makes no sense, but if you want to hang your hat on that, cool with me. I'm not trying to start a flame war, just trying to get clarification on a point that most people have agreed is ambiguous.

Asylur said:

It looks like at most 2 people have agreed that this is ambiguous. You are really just trying to argue semantics (saying that obviously you must move out of an area which you moved through ). Perhaps the words in the rulebook are not as clear as they could be, but you must understand that the activation tokens are only used to make it so that you may not move units again which have already moved, or move units into (to start a battle, etc.) an area which you have already moved units into. To argue otherwise would "make no sense".

broken said:

This thread only has 4 authros, three of whom agreed has ambiguouity. The thread is in danger of degenerating, so let's just agree to disagree and hope for some more imput, hopefully from Corey.

I do think that it is entirely possible that you are correct and it is not uintended to stop movement through the hex. I am just trying to analyze the letter of the law when I find the spirit of the law unclear. We disagree about the letter of the law.

I'm going to put everything else aside and just say this:

Let's assume for a moment that it does mean that you may not move out of activated areas, including activated areas which you intended to move through.

Let's also assume that they do not intend for you to actually be able to end your units' movement in any area other than the one you have just activated when you use the Mobilize/Conquer order (this would cause obvious problems, I hope we can agree).

In what sense, then, can you specifically not move out of an area which you have previously activated, if you could also not move into it unless it was the case that you were able to move out of it as well. That is to say, if what they intend is that you cannot move through previously activated areas, wouldn't they say that you could never move into or through previously activated areas, and not out of them? To emphasize specifically that you may not move out of a previously activated area, and to intend for that to apply to areas which you are moving through is to imply that you could move into the area you intended to move through , and then you would be forced to end your movement (which according to premise two is false).

Please note that I am using bolded text to highlight specific verbiage, not to sound forceful. I am trying to, civilly, convince you of my point.

The way I see it, they mentioned that "units may only move through friendly or empty areas". Seeing as how they did not add in the qualification of these areas having to be unactivated or without a friendly activation token, I would assume that your units can indeed move through areas with friendly activation tokens.

Also the special mention regarding heroes say that heroes can move out of areas with friendly activation tokens. Don't see the part which specially mentions that they can move through areas with friendly activation tokens.

Doesn't moving through an area constitute both moving into and out of that area? In order to move through an area, the figure must first move into and then out of that area. My feeling is that a unit cannot move through an area containing an activation marker, since the very act of moving through the area involves moving out of it and you cannot move a unit out of an area with an activation marker.

You need to plan your orders carefully to prevent this situation.

cadamec said:

If you are going to argue that you move into and then out of an area that you move through, and the rules state that you cannot move out of a previously activated area, then you must also argue that that means you would end your movement in the activated area that you were able to move into but not out of, even though that is not the currently activated area. If you need me to explain why that wouldn't work, I will.

No, I view it as an illegal move and may not be performed at all if part of the move is illegal.

For example, if you try to move to an activated hex where you pass through is friendly and the second hex has a mountain blocking access to the activated hex then the unit would not move at all, due to the move being illegal. For example, take the mobilize/comquer example on page 17. Remove the enemy units and place a mountain boarder between the dragon's activated hex and the hex immediately to it's right. The bowmen could not join the battle, and thus would not move at all due to the move being illegal.

broken said:

The rules state that you cannot move out of an area that contains a friendly activation token. It seems pretty clear, in that regard. The part about 'previous activation' from page 16 is regarding the Strategize order and means that if you moved the units with Mobilize or Conquer prior to playing the Strategize order, you couldn't move them with Strategize, because then you would be moving a unit out of an area with a friendly activation token.

@Asylur

Nowhere in the rules does it say that you may not move into an activated system, it just says that you may not activate a previously activated system. I'd say it's ambiguous as to whether that move would be illegal. After all, moving through is moving into and then out of, and if it only says that you can't move out of an activated area, then you must be able to move into it and stop there.

cadamec said:

I have no idea what you are trying to point out here.

broken said:

Simply that you cannot move through an area that has a friendly activation token in in.