I remember seeing a chart somewhere that showed the force rating and had an equivalent rank in the Jedi order or something along those lines. Does anyone know where that is?

It was in one of the beta books as far as I know. It's kind of irrelevant now, since with F&D if you play for any length of time you'll wind up with 5-6 force ratings.

6 hours ago, HistoryGuy said:

I remember seeing a chart somewhere that showed the force rating and had an equivalent rank in the Jedi order or something along those lines. Does anyone know where that is?

It was in the EotE Beta, and has not been reprinted since then, mostly as it's largely superfluous as well as too many players taking as an iron-clad statement of when a PC would be considered a Jedi Knight/Master, etc. Especially since if the group plays long enough, it'd be possible to get Force Ratings higher than 7, though it would take literally thousands of earned XP, to say nothing of the XP that you'd need to spend on Force powers to be able to really do anything with all those Force dice you've collected. Seeing as how a majority of games seem to end well before the 2K earned XP mark, the chances of having a PC go above a Force Rating of 6 are fairly slim.

Also, the lack of any sort of codified chart allows FFG to sidestep the inevitable bickering over which movie character placed where. Said bickering still happens, but the writers have been able to wash their hands of the matter leave it entirely to the realm of fan speculation.

No, the problem with the chart is that it lists Palpatine at FR6, and if you make a character who starts as Seer/Sage/Hermit and picks up a second one of those classes immediately you're looking at an FR 5 character before you pass 300 earned.

1 hour ago, Aetrion said:

No, the problem with the chart is that it lists Palpatine at FR6, and if you make a character who starts as Seer/Sage/Hermit and picks up a second one of those classes immediately you're looking at an FR 5 character before you pass 300 earned.

Which discounts any kind of ability as all you would have is a high Force Rating. Anyone wanting to take advantage of such a rating would also have to invest in Force Powers and any other talents and abilities that would benefit. Otherwise your narrow focus on Rating leave you fairly useless.

Yes the only time the chart showed up was in the EotE Beta but quickly became irrelevant.

1 hour ago, Aetrion said:

No, the problem with the chart is that it lists Palpatine at FR6, and if you make a character who starts as Seer/Sage/Hermit and picks up a second one of those classes immediately you're looking at an FR 5 character before you pass 300 earned.

Which discounts any kind of ability as all you would have is a high Force Rating. Anyone wanting to take advantage of such a rating would also have to invest in Force Powers and any other talents and abilities that would benefit. Otherwise your narrow focus on Rating leave you fairly useless.

Yes the only time the chart showed up was in the EotE Beta but quickly became irrelevant.

5 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It was in the EotE Beta, and has not been reprinted since then, mostly as it's largely superfluous as well as too many players taking as an iron-clad statement of when a PC would be considered a Jedi Knight/Master, etc. Especially since if the group plays long enough, it'd be possible to get Force Ratings higher than 7, though it would take literally thousands of earned XP, to say nothing of the XP that you'd need to spend on Force powers to be able to really do anything with all those Force dice you've collected. Seeing as how a majority of games seem to end well before the 2K earned XP mark, the chances of having a PC go above a Force Rating of 6 are fairly slim.

Also, the lack of any sort of codified chart allows FFG to sidestep the inevitable bickering over which movie character placed where. Said bickering still happens, but the writers have been able to wash their hands of the matter leave it entirely to the realm of fan speculation.

Yeah putting clear lines like that isn't a good idea.

3 hours ago, mouthymerc said:

Which discounts any kind of ability as all you would have is a high Force Rating. Anyone wanting to take advantage of such a rating would also have to invest in Force Powers and any other talents and abilities that would benefit. Otherwise your narrow focus on Rating leave you fairly useless.

I guess that really depends on what kind of XP range the character maxes out at. If you're talking about a game that expects people to accumulate maybe 300 earned XP in the entire campaign, yea, you can have your 6 force ratings, but you'll never be able to really do anything with them. If you're talking something in the 1000 earned XP range though, you can have so many abilities and bonuses that run on force ratings that the hyper-specialization eventually starts swinging around into extreme versatility. For example, throwing 6 force dice at 9 out of 10 social checks can make a character with absolutely no social skills surprisingly effective at talking to people. Getting enough dedications to roll 6 regular dice at all of the social skills would cost far more XP.

But that still doesn't put them even near to Palpatine's level.

Typically at 4 force rating the hyper versatility it creates really starts to pay off.

Its all deliberate as it allows you to partially offload MADS that happens on Force Using characters who will always have lower skills, stats and talents when compared to non force using characters.

Palpatine is Emperor not because of his force rating alone, its that he has the force powers, skills and talents to back it up, he is powerful in his diversities and thus has minimal weakness. In this system he is a Nemesis, and extremely powerful, as a PC his earned xp would be rather extreme (2k+)

Palpatine isn't someone who should have stats.

He's more of a see player Unleash player dies kind of thing.

Or Influence congrats your kneeling before him as you wet your pants in sheer terror of his terrible majesty.

1 minute ago, Decorus said:

Palpatine isn't someone who should have stats.

He's more of a see player Unleash player dies kind of thing.

Or Influence congrats your kneeling before him as you wet your pants in sheer terror of his terrible majesty.

Definitely agree there! mere mortals are not worthy enough look upon the golden throne of our saviour of Mankind the Emperor God himself... oh wait, wrong IP! Yes i would never stat the Emperor myself, but some do theorise and fantasise about such things and I wished to merely point out a FR of 6 is not enough.

16 hours ago, Decorus said:

Palpatine isn't someone who should have stats.

He's more of a see player Unleash player dies kind of thing.

Except we see him Unleash on Luke for like a solid minute, and he didn't kill him. I mean, Luke wasn't even a full Jedi Knight yet, much less a Master, and he was able to eat the Emperor's Unleash for what would qualify as several rounds of combat.

Palp got soundly whooped by Mace, and only survived the fight because Anakin helped him. And he died to a little bit of his own lightning medicine, and a fall down a shaft....a fate that Luke was able to avoid while suffering from a bloody stump, and pushing his own fall towards one of the shafts.

So I don't really say that Palp is this unstoppable Force machine, when he clearly was defeated on several occasions, escaping only by trickery, and also was thwarted by activities that lower xp PC's were able to survive without much trouble.

So yeah, no he's not the "See a PC, PC dies" kind of character. Heck he's not even that in the movies.

A combat round is about a minute in this system. So you're point that he Unleashed for a full minute on Luke, means he did one or two at most Actions/Unleashes worth of damage to him.

It blew my mind when the Staff Writer in the other thread said he statted Yoda out with a 4 FR. That's nothing... Laughable. Yoda should be using 4 of his FR just to commit to peripheral/constant Powers (Sense, Enhance), and have at least 4 more to spare IMO.

But anyway, this is all why you don't stat out the Icons.

1 hour ago, emsquared said:

A combat round is about a minute in this system. So you're point that he Unleashed for a full minute on Luke, means he did one or two at most Actions/Unleashes worth of damage to him.

It blew my mind when the Staff Writer in the other thread said he statted Yoda out with a 4 FR. That's nothing... Laughable. Yoda should be using 4 of his FR just to commit to peripheral/constant Powers (Sense, Enhance), and have at least 4 more to spare IMO.

But anyway, this is all why you don't stat out the Icons.

Actually at Force Rating 4, most PCs are going to be able to accomplish quite a lot. Mechanically, Yoda would get more benefit out of having a high Agility and Lightsaber score than using Sense's offensive Control upgrade or devoting multiple dice to Enhance. Sink enough XP into the upgrades for Move, and you don't need an absurdly high Force Rating to pull off crazy stunts like tossing multiple heavy assault vehicles around like they were toys.

And from stories I heard at the last GamerNationCon where Keith debuted the adventure, the players who played Yoda were able to pull off some pretty epic Force-related stunts worth of the Jedi Grand Master's reputation.

39 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Actually at Force Rating 4, most PCs are going to be able to accomplish quite a lot. Mechanically, Yoda would get more benefit out of having a high Agility and Lightsaber score than using Sense's offensive Control upgrade or devoting multiple dice to Enhance. Sink enough XP into the upgrades for Move, and you don't need an absurdly high Force Rating to pull off crazy stunts like tossing multiple heavy assault vehicles around like they were toys.

And from stories I heard at the last GamerNationCon where Keith debuted the adventure, the players who played Yoda were able to pull off some pretty epic Force-related stunts worth of the Jedi Grand Master's reputation.

Certainly, FR 4 is nothing to sneeze at, but when you've played a character that supposedly is/was as powerful in the Force as Yoda, despite only having had a little more than a decade using it (and truly maybe a year really learning in it) and zero formal training the whole while... well, that notion just demistifies the Icon a bit.

Again, this is why you don't stat them, IMO.

The problem isn't statting up canon characters, the issue is the whole idea of a zero to hero progression in RPGs. Get rid of that, and you don't have to worry about power creep and PCs overtaking canon NPCs.

That's one of the best things the Marvel Heroic RPG did.

19 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

The problem isn't statting up canon characters, the issue is the whole idea of a zero to hero progression in RPGs. Get rid of that, and you don't have to worry about power creep and PCs overtaking canon NPCs.

Ah, yes, that old chestnut. I know, nobody has fun the way they are supposed to, good point.

How silly to suggest there could possibly be a disconnect between a games mechanics and what we see in the drama of canon media that makes the two incompatible.

[edit]Would just like to point out that what is Luke's story if not zero-to-hero, and it took place in the span of a few years.

23 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Ah, yes, that old chestnut. I know, nobody has fun the way they are supposed to, good point.

How silly to suggest there could possibly be a disconnect between a games mechanics and what we see in the drama of canon media that makes the two incompatible.

[edit]Would just like to point out that what is Luke's story if not zero-to-hero, and it took place in the span of a few years.

I didn't say anything about supposed. But this is a solved problem.If it creates trouble for someone, it's worth looking at other ways to do it.I didn't accuse anyone of having the wrong kind of fun. That's really not in my post at all.

Luke starts out pretty **** competent, as do the other main characters. Definitely no zeroes.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Luke starts out pretty **** competent, as do the other main characters. Definitely no zeroes.

PCs start out - or at least can - quite competent. A 3 and a 4 in a couple Characteristics makes anyone pretty competent at what they're doing. So yea, Luke = zero-to-hero, by your own logic, if PCs are going z-t-h in the game.

PCs start out explicitly below the level of professional competence. That's what having two yellows in a skill means. Unless you redefine that as competent...

And you can have two yellows thru base chargen, often without spending xp - especially as a human (like Luke). Throw in Destiny points especially and PCs hit that, no problem, on any important roll.

2 minutes ago, emsquared said:

And you can have two yellows thru base chargen, often without spending xp - especially as a human (like Luke). Throw in Destiny points especially and PCs hit that, no problem, on any important roll.

Humans are no different to other species in terms of the ability to have 2 free ranks in a Skill at character creation. Their benefit is being able to choose 2 "non-career" skills to gain a free rank in. Which in fact makes them worse than some other species at having 2 ranks in skills for free.

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

Humans are no different to other species in terms of the ability to have 2 free ranks in a Skill at character creation. Their benefit is being able to choose 2 "non-career" skills to gain a free rank in. Which in fact makes them worse than some other species at having 2 ranks in skills for free.

Well, if the point is (as Stan seems to be suggesting) thar Icons do things that require "Professional skill" (completely uninterested in this semantic debate, so whatever), than having more free ranks across more skills - when combined with DP/upgrading checks - justifies more spectacular things.

The only really impressive thing Luke does is space pilot, no? Easy peasy to get there.