So why were pistols effective at getting past capital ship armor? But the orbital bombardment from ISDs cause little puffs of smoke when they hit the ground, instead of explosions. And the AT-ATs, or whatever designation they have, has enough firepower to take out a GR-75, but someone can stand literally right next to a shot that misses them and walk away. Inconsistencies bother me, even more so than the poor writing in some scenes, like Bendu and that dumb musical scene with the inventory droid from an earlier show.

Besides Thrawn, it appears the competency of the Imperial leadership is on par with the accuracy of Storm Troopers. No wonder they lose all the time.

Decent episode. I thought there was going to be more capital ship action with MC80s joining the fight, or like others have said, it was previewed to be that way.

13 hours ago, xerpo said:

But Keenan rolled that dice.

Metaphor my friend.

4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

So why were pistols effective at getting past capital ship armor?

I think it was the rockets that did the work, not the pistol shots.

Still, it does seem like shields and armor are vastly thinner in the Rebels-verse, and that everything is very fragile.

We saw that the smaller guns were completely ineffective against walker armor, at least - shots hitting and leaving no mark at all.

4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

But the orbital bombardment from ISDs cause little puffs of smoke when they hit the ground, instead of explosions.

I presumed that they start the bombardment at the lowest possible yield (they want to capture people) and once all the shots are landing on the shield, they start increasing the power a little at a time.

7 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

So why were pistols effective at getting past capital ship armor? But the orbital bombardment from ISDs cause little puffs of smoke when they hit the ground, instead of explosions. And the AT-ATs, or whatever designation they have, has enough firepower to take out a GR-75, but someone can stand literally right next to a shot that misses them and walk away. Inconsistencies bother me, even more so than the poor writing in some scenes, like Bendu and that dumb musical scene with the inventory droid from an earlier show.

+1

Not only that but somehow destroying a Gravity Well with light anti personal weapons (fail) destroys the ENTIRE ship...

Nothing of value was acutally lost. A Redshirt Fleet being destroyed along with the do nothing Sato amounts to almost no emotional investment to mourn the loss of. Structurally you get reset to Season 2. Great! So now we can wallow through an episodic structure that is bound to have little character development and lower stakes. Yawn...

Tuned into the promise of a stronger season, left when it was clear nothing was happening, came back for the "big finale", left dissapointed (overall) but not suprised. There is very little talent being put into the show.

-edit- and between all the Destroyers there appeared to be 4 Tie Fighters and 2 Bombers in combat at any one time....

Just now, Trizzo2 said:

Not only that but somehow destroying a Gravity Well with light anti personal weapons (fail) destroys the ENTIRE ship...

It didn't explode as severely as in Stealth Strike - there was still a drifting hulk rather than a cloud of debris.

Presumably because gravity wells involve so much energy - damaging it causes some release of that energy into the ship, depending on how serious the damage is.

1 minute ago, Trizzo2 said:

+1

Not only that but somehow destroying a Gravity Well with light anti personal weapons (fail) destroys the ENTIRE ship...

Nothing of value was acutally lost. A fleet of Redshirts being destoryed with a do nothing character (Sato) dying in the mix amounts to nothing significant. You are reset to 0 or season 2. Great! So now we can wallow through an episodic structure that is bound to have little character development and low stakes. Yawn...

I presume you won't be joining us for season 4 then?

In all seriousness, I'll give your comments a full analysis, but it feels like you might just not like the show. If so, feel free to ignore the following.

I think you're wrong. Firstly, a key section of the Rebel fleet lost its largest ships, and escaped with a handful of corvettes and carriers. Bearing in mind that at this stage their largest ship is that MC-80, and that they've lost a large carrier and multiple Nebulons. That's a fairly major loss, even if most of the main characters survived (and, let's face it, they had to for the show to work). I also think you're unfair to Sato - he's not the most exciting character in the series, but he's important to the Rebel structure, and his loss will be seen as a major one within the story at least.

Secondly, I think Season 3 has set us up for a lot of interesting character, expanding beyond the core we've been used to since the beginning. You have Agent Kallus joining the Rebels - they will need to work through how he comes to be accepted, how he moves beyond his past, what new intelligence he can bring. You have Mon Mothma and Saw Gerrera, who we know have become hostile to one another by the time of Rogue One - what will cause that rift, and how does Gerrer become the extremist? We have the potential to bring in Ackbar and Raddus, and to see how the Mon Cals will help the cause.

Thirdly, in terms of stakes, we're moving closer and closer to the Original Trilogy - if anything the stakes are getting higher. When Hera and gang were merely a cell on Lothal, they could have been lost with little implications, except for the viewer; now they're instrumental to the Rebel structure overall. The show's getting bigger, and I'm excited.

32 minutes ago, Ironlord said:

I think it was the rockets that did the work, not the pistol shots.

Still, it does seem like shields and armor are vastly thinner in the Rebels-verse, and that everything is very fragile.

We saw that the smaller guns were completely ineffective against walker armor, at least - shots hitting and leaving no mark at all.

I presumed that they start the bombardment at the lowest possible yield (they want to capture people) and once all the shots are landing on the shield, they start increasing the power a little at a time.

There were cracks forming in the armor of the grav well before the rockets hit, presumably from the small arms fire. I can understand an Interdictor armor being thinner than an ISD, but not thinner than a walker.

I guess that makes sense for a bombardment, but it's still not what I was hoping for. It was all very weak, literally and figuratively.

42 minutes ago, ceejlekabeejle said:

I presume you won't be joining us for season 4 then?

In all seriousness, I'll give your comments a full analysis, but it feels like you might just not like the show. If so, feel free to ignore the following.

I think you're wrong. Firstly, a key section of the Rebel fleet lost its largest ships, and escaped with a handful of corvettes and carriers. Bearing in mind that at this stage their largest ship is that MC-80, and that they've lost a large carrier and multiple Nebulons. That's a fairly major loss, even if most of the main characters survived (and, let's face it, they had to for the show to work). I also think you're unfair to Sato - he's not the most exciting character in the series, but he's important to the Rebel structure, and his loss will be seen as a major one within the story at least.

Secondly, I think Season 3 has set us up for a lot of interesting character, expanding beyond the core we've been used to since the beginning. You have Agent Kallus joining the Rebels - they will need to work through how he comes to be accepted, how he moves beyond his past, what new intelligence he can bring. You have Mon Mothma and Saw Gerrera, who we know have become hostile to one another by the time of Rogue One - what will cause that rift, and how does Gerrer become the extremist? We have the potential to bring in Ackbar and Raddus, and to see how the Mon Cals will help the cause.

Thirdly, in terms of stakes, we're moving closer and closer to the Original Trilogy - if anything the stakes are getting higher. When Hera and gang were merely a cell on Lothal, they could have been lost with little implications, except for the viewer; now they're instrumental to the Rebel structure overall. The show's getting bigger, and I'm excited.

I want to like the show, this is the problem The issue is the writers make it very difficult to do so. I don't go soft on a show because I like the lore.

1) I was not talking about value in terms of material. Of course they lost material value. But it doesn't have any emotional pay off. All these ships were hyperspaced in from essentially nowhere. They were not especially earned, they just appeared, strangely enough in time for a grand finale big battle! And now they are all gone. Well that was an interesting albeit pointless exercise. But hey cool explosions.

2) Again, Sato is material value to the Rebels only. He has been a mainstay of the series yet his death has less emotional impact than a no name Hammerhead Corvette crew we see for 10 seconds! (Rogue One)

3) The plot armour is ridiculous. I don't think any examples need to be pointed out, surely not? This is a problem. There is no sense of threat to any of the characters. At every turn the writers undermine themselves. They wanted this to be a serious season. If you match this "new threat" with an increase to plot armour it isn't interesting viewing.

4) All the things to look foward to a just filler bits of lore. Why do we care about Gerrer based on anything he did in the show? Kallus plays the part of a turn coat rebel feeling isolated and abandoned by a cold indifferent Empire? Yawn, its been done before and better. Why do we care about the Mon Cals? Almost nothing outside of being a fan of a the lore makes this show good viewing. The characters don't sell it. The writing doesn't. The lazy episodic structure doesn't. Give me a reason to care beyond 'hey these idiots will consume anything if we put Starwars in the label'. Plot or character development? Nah...let's make a jumble of random episode you could watch in any order and be none the wiser.

5) Ezera. I gave him a chance this season. He is consistently the worst aspect of the show. He is tonally deaf ("I hope they are having better luck", he says as he watches his fleet blown to pieces), his writing is lazy and simplistic, he has no emotional range or depth, he is terrible at the comic relief role. He ruined Twin Suns, the best Episode of Rebels peroid.

So why bother at all? Take Twin Suns. They defy Star Wars convention and fanboy expectation. They give us flashes of strong writing (Obiwan/Maul, Ezera not included), great character representation through "showing", seeing Obwiwan change expression, the lightsaber reflected in the face, the change of stances, seeing the realisation of a life wasted on Mauls face and "he will avenge us". Most of the time we have every piece of information spoon fed to us through lazy, poorly written dialoge. I was close to gobsmacked with Twin Suns. They took risks and an original approach and delievered something with narrative and emotional heft. That is the Rebels I want to see. Not turds masked by green and red laser fire with barely a reason in the universe to care.

The OT is grim (up to RotJ, which is not suprisingly the weakest link), emotional and exciting. When Rebels hits these similar notes it shines. When it plays to the "young adult" crowd and kids it's nothing more than Star Wars flavoured filler.

-edit- done editing, except for typos

21 minutes ago, ceejlekabeejle said:

I presume you won't be joining us for season 4 then?

In all seriousness, I'll give your comments a full analysis, but it feels like you might just not like the show. If so, feel free to ignore the following.

I think you're wrong. Firstly, a key section of the Rebel fleet lost its largest ships, and escaped with a handful of corvettes and carriers. Bearing in mind that at this stage their largest ship is that MC-80, and that they've lost a large carrier and multiple Nebulons. That's a fairly major loss, even if most of the main characters survived (and, let's face it, they had to for the show to work). I also think you're unfair to Sato - he's not the most exciting character in the series, but he's important to the Rebel structure, and his loss will be seen as a major one within the story at least.

Secondly, I think Season 3 has set us up for a lot of interesting character, expanding beyond the core we've been used to since the beginning. You have Agent Kallus joining the Rebels - they will need to work through how he comes to be accepted, how he moves beyond his past, what new intelligence he can bring. You have Mon Mothma and Saw Gerrera, who we know have become hostile to one another by the time of Rogue One - what will cause that rift, and how does Gerrer become the extremist? We have the potential to bring in Ackbar and Raddus, and to see how the Mon Cals will help the cause.

Thirdly, in terms of stakes, we're moving closer and closer to the Original Trilogy - if anything the stakes are getting higher. When Hera and gang were merely a cell on Lothal, they could have been lost with little implications, except for the viewer; now they're instrumental to the Rebel structure overall. The show's getting bigger, and I'm excited.

The issue with Sato is he was pretty important when he was introduced, and then they kinda got rid of him. The CW show was good because there was a wide range of characters that they developed. Hell, they gave stories to clones, who are disposable by nature, and killed them off to progress the plot and character development. Sato is just flat. I was hoping he was going to be important this season, considering how important he was in season 2. Instead, we have Hera who is clearly more competent and a better strategist than Thrawn.

There is potential for the show. I just feel like Disney is holding it back so it still is suitable for a much younger audience.

Now that they are going to Yavin, I'm more curious about the rest of the Rebellion than this handful of characters we have now. We got a glimpse of the hierarchy in Rogue One, an hopefully they expand on that. I have a feeling I'll be disappointed and begrudgingly still watch the show.

11 minutes ago, Trizzo2 said:

Take twin suns. They defy Star Wars convension and fanboy expectation. They have give us flashes of strong writing (Obiwan/Maul, Ezera not included), great character representation through "showing", seeing Obwiwan change expression, the lightsaber reflected in the face, the change of stances etc.. Most of the time we have every piece of information spoon fed to us through lazy poorly writen dialoge. I was close to gobsmacked with Twin Suns. They took risks and an original approach and delievered something with narrative and emotional heft. That is the Rebels i want to see. Not turds masked in green and red laser gold.

100% agree with this. Maybe the writers don't know they can actually have an episode without the main characters? I feel like they try very hard to force Ezra or the droids into an episode to try and tell a story that doesn't actually need the Rebel characters and end up with sloppy writing that doesn't flow well.

So long as the main characters are immune to real harm, the story has no tension.

Rebels is unique in that it portrays characters who are not required to survive (just like Rogue One). The writers should use this power to show how deadly and dangerous the empire can be. I think they missed a real opportunity here when all of the core characters survived the climax of the season.

In particular, Kanan's death could have demonstrated the seriousness of the Rebel plight AND pushed Ezra's character development.

56 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

There were cracks forming in the armor of the grav well before the rockets hit, presumably from the small arms fire. I can understand an Interdictor armor being thinner than an ISD, but not thinner than a walker.

I guess that makes sense for a bombardment, but it's still not what I was hoping for. It was all very weak, literally and figuratively.

I always assumed the gravity well projectors were not heavily armored as it might interfere with their operation. This however is no excuse for PISTOLS to be having an effect on a capital warship's shields.

44 minutes ago, Democratus said:

So long as the main characters are immune to real harm, the story has no tension.

Rebels is unique in that it portrays characters who are not required to survive (just like Rogue One). The writers should use this power to show how deadly and dangerous the empire can be. I think they missed a real opportunity here when all of the core characters survived the climax of the season.

In particular, Kanan's death could have demonstrated the seriousness of the Rebel plight AND pushed Ezra's character development.

It is also a kids show, difficult to market and sell toys for a kids show when the characters// hero's are dead. Unless they plan to bring them back like the anti-hero Maul. Yes people die but none on the main characters. They don't even need to die in this show since the ghost was in Rogue One. Just say at the end of this run, they went on a different path.

Kids shows don't need to be death-free. There was a time when books like "Where the Red Fern Grows", "A Taste of Blackberries", and "Old Yeller" were standard fare for children.

There's no need to use a young audience as an excuse for bad writing.

That's where you introduce new characters that the kids can fall in love with which in turn makes them buy more toys.

Clone Wars practically had a new ensemble every other episode. Why not create new rebels or have characters people already know like Wedge and Dak appear more often now.

56 minutes ago, chr335 said:

I always assumed the gravity well projectors were not heavily armored as it might interfere with their operation. This however is no excuse for PISTOLS to be having an effect on a capital warship's shields.

I just told myself it's like Battlefronts walker assault game, small arms barely have an effect on the lumbering heavily armored walkers, but em mass they slowly but steadily weaken it. I further this, with the knowledge that Sabine is a big fan of handheld high explosives, given the numberof scene cutaways it's not much of a stretch to assume she's unloaded a fair number of explody toys on the generator.

As for the ship exploding... It's a risk/reward ship, do you risk the total loss for the reward of stopping/stalling the primary means of escape for your enemy? We just need accept that the Interdictor, by it's nature, is prone to explosion when it's generators are destroyed while active. Have you ever seen (or read) what happens when someone accidentally causes a spark in the powder room of a 74 gun 3rd rate?

1 hour ago, chr335 said:

I always assumed the gravity well projectors were not heavily armored as it might interfere with their operation. This however is no excuse for PISTOLS to be having an effect on a capital warship's shields.

I'm pretty sure an assault team on the hull of a ship is inside perimeter its shields

3 minutes ago, OgRib said:

I'm pretty sure an assault team on the hull of a ship is inside perimeter its shields

When shooting at the gravity well projectors it looked like a shield effect to me.

13 minutes ago, chr335 said:

When shooting at the gravity well projectors it looked like a shield effect to me.

Doesn't mean that was ship shields we were seeing - just an energy field effect.

This is a show for children & young teenagers, some people are expecting way too much from it. Imagine if Bikermice from Mars was analysed to the same degree?

Thus the rebels will always win, even if they loose (i.e. as in this episode, they loose but then win by escaping and even destroying an expensive imperial ship). Popular characters will not be ruthlessly executed, and Imperial ships and personel will always seem incompetent to make the heroes look good. And making the heroes look good thrumps any consistency with existing canon or even realism most adults would like to see. Imagine how a 10 year old would feel if all his favorite Rebel heroes were obliterated in this episode as they should have been

3 hours ago, Trizzo2 said:

That is the Rebels I want to see. Not turds masked by green and red laser fire with barely a reason in the universe to care.

Essentially, our disagreement comes down to a difference of opinion, and I'm not sure we can resolve that one. Where you read poor writing, I read quality. I saw the ploughing of the stolen quasar-fire, with Sato committed to his fate, as a powerful moment in the episode, yet you seem to have struggled to relate to it emotionally. Where you see Kallus as a tired trope, I find him interesting, an Imperial who goes from gloating over killing Losats to being indebted to one, to supporting the Rebels when it could cost him his life. Where you're disappointed in Ezra, I think this has been an interesting season for him.

But the above statement (as much as I'm sure you were being somewhat tongue in cheek ) also leads me to feel like I'm unlikely to change your mind. So if you don't mind, I'll agree to disagree with you.

1 hour ago, Democratus said:

Kids shows don't need to be death-free. There was a time when books like "Where the Red Fern Grows", "A Taste of Blackberries", and "Old Yeller" were standard fare for children.

There's no need to use a young audience as an excuse for bad writing.

Those movies are not from this generation. Not even my generation. I am sure there are some within the last 10 years but not many. Point is this is marketed for children. No 9 year old is going to say wow bad writing, but see a leader that saved his friends at his own cost and while doing it crashing a ship into another ship. Source: 4th grade round table discussing the show.

It is not bad writing for the kids though. It is great we can discuss how we like and dislike the show, but to say it just bad when it is getting good reviews and ratings is not correct. I also found it not that good of a show for me, I saw the deus ex machina early and thought that would suck if they did go that route. What I see as an adult is not what the kids see, which is the important demographic for the show.

I did think Sabine's forces were going to do something cool like steal the Interdictor or something crazy, instead they space walked and took out one gravity well blowing up the entire ship. A. Konstantine's actions did not make much sense to me either, but created a way for the hero's to have hope, and push forward. While I still saw issues with it. I do realize what this show is for and it did it well. I got to see the hero's win (by not dying), I got to see some great explosions and a space battle. I saw someone sacrifice his life to save all those around him. I also saw the villian who is so full of himself, get an embarrassing loss and the beginning of his down fall.

3 minutes ago, slimninj4 said:

It is not bad writing for the kids though. It is great we can discuss how we like and dislike the show, but to say it just bad when it is getting good reviews and ratings is not correct. I also found it not that good of a show for me, I saw the deus ex machina early and thought that would suck if they did go that route. What I see as an adult is not what the kids see, which is the important demographic for the show.

I did think Sabine's forces were going to do something cool like steal the Interdictor or something crazy, instead they space walked and took out one gravity well blowing up the entire ship. A. Konstantine's actions did not make much sense to me either, but created a way for the hero's to have hope, and push forward. While I still saw issues with it. I do realize what this show is for and it did it well. I got to see the hero's win (by not dying), I got to see some great explosions and a space battle. I saw someone sacrifice his life to save all those around him. I also saw the villian who is so full of himself, get an embarrassing loss and the beginning of his down fall.

This is kinda how I view the show, and frankly much of the Star Wars universe. In fact, what I like about Rebels is the fact that, despite it's primary market, it still manages to produce some very interesting and nuanced writing, some great looking scences, and some artistic touches, like harking back to McQuarrie. I love finding the clever in what could have simply been a mundane money spinner. The Obi-Wan Maul encounter was a fabulous moment in the Star Wars story, and is getting the acclaim it deserves.

And let's not forget, this is an Armada forum; if nothing else, Rebels has given us some **** good ships.

More info here: http://news.google.com/news/url?sr=1&ct2=us%2F1_0_s_0_1_a&sa=t&usg=AFQjCNGEd1pLLQtJP-XfwytRH5rPTkSuUQ&cid=52779437383709&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ign.com%2Farticles%2F2017%2F03%2F28%2Fstar-wars-rebels-dave-filoni-discusses-kallus-arc-mauls-fate-and-more-of-season-3s-big-storylines&ei=HI7aWMDPJNDEqQK5g6xo&sig2=FNh3a9ooUSBkvCixEPFG8g&rt=HOMEPAGE&vm=STANDARD&bvm=section&did=-8432046436605110843&sid=en_us-sfy&ssid=sfy&st=1&at=dt0&eid=%2Fm%2F0vpw97h&ise=true&insrc=1

(There are some salty dogs here for sure. We all have our opinion and that's cool. You don't have to like the show. I won't defend it for you. That being said I hear lazy and bad writing being thrown around a lot. I defy you to write a coherent story over four years. Make it good. Work through established characters and timelines. Be mindful of the future plans and your impact across a multimedia global platform. Let's see what your Rebels looks like.)