Someone else mentioned something about the Punisher needing to unload munitions faster, and it got me thinking about the possibility of a title that allows it to follow up attacks. Something along the lines of:

"once per turn, After you make a secondary weapon attack, you may make another primary or secondary weapon attack against the same target. "

It's an interesting idea to me because of all the variables to balance it with. You can restrict it to other secondary weapon attacks, restrict the damage of one of the attacks(so as to encourage status effects), and take advantage of the need for target locks.

Curious what you'd think about balancing for this.

Perhaps have the second attack trigger based on how much damage was dealt by the first attack, so you can't score 8 damage with a couple of good proton rolls. Or maybe have the secondary attack follow a primary attack as a kind of "rangefinder" effect (though the thematics of that are dubious at best). The Punisher's primary is pretty piddly, but if it was the effect of a free title, an easy doubletap like that would be pretty nice for token stripping at least.

Just now, Bike Stunts said:

Perhaps have the second attack trigger based on how much damage was dealt by the first attack, so you can't score 8 damage with a couple of good proton rolls. Or maybe have the secondary attack follow a primary attack as a kind of "rangefinder" effect (though the thematics of that are dubious at best). The Punisher's primary is pretty piddly, but if it was the effect of a free title, an easy doubletap like that would be pretty nice for token stripping at least.

I thought of that, having the first attack do no more than one damage, or canceling all dice from the second attack if it hits.

I had this idea for a fix for the tie punisher

Twin Linked Ordnance Launchers
System. TIE Punisher only.
Once per turn, If a game effect instructs you to spend a target lock, you may ignore it.
Once per turn, after an attack with a secondary weapon, you may make another attack with a different secondary weapon.
You can not equip bombs,missiles,or torpedoes that cost "5" or more
0 pts

you need to have two different secondary weapons equipped to use it, and still have a target lock on your target to use it and won't be able to spend it to re-roll on the first shot unless you're redline as well as limits what type of weps the punisher can equip, no assult missiles, no homing missiles, no ion torps or the oh so used adv proton. It also gives new life for the thread tracers letting them be used to get a TL and a focus for another shot.

I'd probably do something like this. It emphasizes the large capacity of the punisher and allows it go dump it as quickly as possible before the enemy is able to shoot it down. I think we can get away with it being free; the punisher is ~5 points overcosted and actually equipping enough ordnance to make this worthwhile isn't going to make it any more affordable.

Super Heavy Bomber

Title. TIE Punisher Only.

Once per round, after performing an attack with a secondary weapon, you may acquire a target lock. Then, you may perform an attack with an equipped <missile> or <torpedo> Upgrade card.

You can drop up to two bombs each round.

0 points.

Id just give TIEpun a 0pt title dual card that has ruthlessness for torp/missiles on 1 side and sabine crew on the other side

No, because a viable super-alpha strike will invalidate an awful lot of ships who can't withstand it.

Now a title that was like Baze Malbus and let you attack two targets? That would be better as it spreads damage around, which is a natural control.

I would have 1 title that allows you to equip a system at -2 points with the ability to do a primary weapon attack followed by a secondary. This allows FCS to really be utilised.

Then the other side would have -1 pt system with the ability to drop mines as a free action. Enhanced scopes should be good.

I disagree in a polite way. I think that launching 2 salvoes per round is not good. IMHO Agi 1 Bombers need help to enhance their capacity to avoid/take damage. "Reinforce", custom droids to raise Agi from 1 to 2 (not Action and non unique). Squadron cards like "Top Cover" (pay 1 extra point per ship. Agi 2+ fighters protect the Agi 1 bombers. If 1+ fighters are on the table Agi +1 to bombers).

Allowing Punishers to launch first Plasmas + Protons in the same round and obtaining 8 or 9 hits against a VCX is... Or against Epic Ships...

Of course they need help. Ways to raise Agi from 1 to 2 or negating hits. I like the idea of Reinforced Punishers. Minelayer Punishers can Reinforce while aproaching the Drop Zone and then launch their cookies.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

No, because a viable super-alpha strike will invalidate an awful lot of ships who can't withstand it.

Now a title that was like Baze Malbus and let you attack two targets? That would be better as it spreads damage around, which is a natural control.

This is it, have it be "multi-targeting computer: you may acquire TLs on multiple ships at once. When you acquire a TL, acquire a 2nd TL on another ship at r1-2 of the enemy ship. After performing a 2nd weapon attack, you may perform another 2nd weapon attack at a different ship." 3pts.

Punisher Red Line dropping 2 Cluster Missiles

Excuse me while I roll 12 dice

29 minutes ago, Talamare said:

Punisher Red Line dropping 2 Cluster Missiles

Excuse me while I roll 12 dice

I would not have a problem with that.

Balanced, I don't know but better yes.

So lets say there is a system slot, After you make an attack with a <missile> or <torpedo> weapon you may make a primary weapon attack. Could make B-wings and Punishers a lot scarier. Corran would only get a single use so it passes the Corran Horn test. VCX would also get a benefit but not from it's special arc as it can't make a primary weapon attack from that arc. Okay we didn't accidentally brought something to OP levels beyond pre nerf U-boat. Good.

As for a slot like that you would get Dumbfire Punishers which would end up sort of like a reverse BTL-A4. They would get a decent missile attack with focus then a standard primary weapon attack. Actually this system would be weaker than BTL-A4 as if you are not using focus missiles or homing missiles you would be spending your target lock thus not having one for modifying the primary weapon attack.

One Primary attack after firing Torps/Missiles is better in my opinion. A Torp 1,2 and bie bie Epic Ships

40 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Balanced, I don't know but better yes.

So lets say there is a system slot, After you make an attack with a <missile> or <torpedo> weapon you may make a primary weapon attack. Could make B-wings and Punishers a lot scarier. Corran would only get a single use so it passes the Corran Horn test. VCX would also get a benefit but not from it's special arc as it can't make a primary weapon attack from that arc. Okay we didn't accidentally brought something to OP levels beyond pre nerf U-boat. Good.

As for a slot liek that you would get Dumbfire Punishers which would end up sort of like a reverse BTL-A4. They would get a decent missile attack with focus then a standard primary weapon attack. Actually this system would be weaker than BTL-A4 as if you are not using focus missiles or homing missiles you would be spending your target lock thus not having one for modifying the primary weapon attack.

It'd give it as a custom title for the Punisher instead of boosting a whole bunch of ships, including those that not need any help...

I think it could be. My hot take has always been:

Linked firing systems.

Title. 0 points.

After you make a primary weapon attack, you may make an attack with an equipped [missile] or [torpedo] secondary weapon, ignoring any instruction to discard the weapon.

WHen you drop a bomb, you may drop it using the 1 [left bank] template or the 1 [right bank] template. If you do you may drop a duplicate of the token using the opposite direction template.

Infinite ammo, double bombs, and using your primary as a targetting laser with FCS would go a long way to making punishers just a little cheaper and a LOT more effective.

8 hours ago, kraedin said:

I'd probably do something like this. It emphasizes the large capacity of the punisher and allows it go dump it as quickly as possible before the enemy is able to shoot it down. I think we can get away with it being free; the punisher is ~5 points overcosted and actually equipping enough ordnance to make this worthwhile isn't going to make it any more affordable.

Super Heavy Bomber

Title. TIE Punisher Only.

Once per round, after performing an attack with a secondary weapon, you may acquire a target lock. Then, you may perform an attack with an equipped <missile> or <torpedo> Upgrade card.

You can drop up to two bombs each round.

0 points.

I like this idea; I really don't think the Punisher should be more tanky/survivable, it should unleash holy hell in terms of ordnace.

4 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

No, because a viable super-alpha strike will invalidate an awful lot of ships who can't withstand it.

Now a title that was like Baze Malbus and let you attack two targets? That would be better as it spreads damage around, which is a natural control.

Dump the reacquisition of the TL. The player will then need to use a lesser secondary weapon and it will likely be an unmodified shot (except for GC).

3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I like this idea; I really don't think the Punisher should be more tanky/survivable, it should unleash holy hell in terms of ordnace.

Dump the reacquisition of the TL. The player will then need to use a lesser secondary weapon and it will likely be an unmodified shot (except for GC).

GC is once per turn, so it won't factor in most times. And I agree, single target lock only, unless you're recline.

They seem to enjoy this "do a special thing and then take a weapons disabled before you can do the special thing again" mechanic these days. Maybe two ordnance attacks at once but you get 2 weapons disabled tokens afterwards.

5 hours ago, costi said:

It'd give it as a custom title for the Punisher instead of boosting a whole bunch of ships, including those that not need any help...

Ha, what other ship would get a boost? Lambda shuttle has no torepdoes and missiles, E-wing and TIS-SF would be a one shot use only, same for Virago and TIE Advance 1x, VCX wouldn't be able to use through its special firing arc. So B-wing and VCX willget a couple of shots from it and thats bout it. The ship that would get the biggest boost will be the TIE Punisher.

You really need to think out your posts a little more carefully, or at least read before quoting.

Also, I don't think that people are really using ordnance on all the ships which can system+torps or missiles. I mean, sure, you can slap FCS on there and take advantage sometimes as it's drawn out, but it's really not worth it. A system to basically TIE/D but with torps/missile wouldn't be so bad, and really only the B (which I don't think uses a lot of torpedoes) and the Punisher would benefit. Maybe the Havoc because you could EM to have two missiles or have a torp and a missile, but that's still a unique ship. Also if it was a title, then you could FCS on the Punisher which is only 2 points and depending on which you do first (is it primary then secondary, other way around?) and other timing phrasing you could get some pretty bad free dice mod cycles going.

If we're designing something punisher specific, a title which lets it split launches between multiple seperate targets would be alright. That gives it more efficiency, but you still, y'know, have to line up and pick on two ships.

2 hours ago, HammerGibbens said:

They seem to enjoy this "do a special thing and then take a weapons disabled before you can do the special thing again" mechanic these days. Maybe two ordnance attacks at once but you get 2 weapons disabled tokens afterwards.

So can shoot 1 missile per round, or 2 missiles every other round. How does this help me unload more ordnance?

1 hour ago, UnitOmega said:

If we're designing something punisher specific, a title which lets it split launches between multiple seperate targets would be alright. That gives it more efficiency, but you still, y'know, have to line up and pick on two ships.

This would also require some funky add in mechanism for an extra TL or Focus, or absolve the second shot of needing it. It would not be my preferred improvement, but anything that keeps the Punisher from dying with tubes loaded is an improvement.

11 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

This would also require some funky add in mechanism for an extra TL or Focus, or absolve the second shot of needing it. It would not be my preferred improvement, but anything that keeps the Punisher from dying with tubes loaded is an improvement.

My system slot idea I posted above fixes it. It let's the punisher be able to double shot but not able to max mod on both of them unless your redline. Also there is targeting synchronizer that can help out the punisher fire at secondary targets.

A good way to fix ordnance is make it to where you can't spend any tokens, change results or reroll dice when defending against them.

Cause I'm pretty sure it's REALLY HARD to avoid Homing Missiles.