So I always seem to be hitting the forums when I have a problem with the same player time and again to get everyone's advice. This time around I already made my decision, but according to my player I am stifling him and not allowing him to "play how he wants to" which is going to make the game "incredibly dull and boring" for him.

Here is the basic rundown: My player, let's call him Bill, always plays the same character in every game...a version of himself basically...sarcastic, likes to use combat and blow things up, throws monkey wrenches with really weird ideas, that sort of thing. It can be somewhat frustrating to play with him at times because he basically just likes to hit stuff with weapons and doesn't use any other abilities unless he can hit things harder.

Now that was all well and good when playing Edge of the Empire or when he plays D&D as a chaotic evil character...but when he is at my table playing a Light side campaign in Force and Destiny it became a problem. We had a GM/PC contract before we all started playing that the PC's would be a group of Light side Force sensitive characters working together to help rid the galaxy of darkness while learning about the Force. Bill liked the idea, but wanted to fall to the Dark side so he could use some cool Force powers and then redeem himself after having his fun in the Dark.

Cut to 7 months after he fell and he is still nowhere near close to even getting above 30 because he keeps doing things like murdering people, using violence as the first option, torturing enemies for info, and not trying to do anything to actively redeem himself. I told him that he hasn't been abiding by the agreement we had when we started the game over a year ago and I will be killing off his character. I gave him the option to create a new one and continue to play with us but told him in order to limit his in-game tendencies to play an evil character he was not to use any lightsaber discipline based specializations, but he could use any other specialization in any class in the CRB or sourcebooks.

He ended up choosing a Consular Healer class and bought into the Mystic Seer specialization as well which I thought was good because the group needs a good healer and those two trees are not set for offensive combat. However as soon as he started picking a species and getting his points ready to be distributed he started to look at the species to see which one had the highest Willpower and how much he could put in the lightsaber combat skill right away...he was looking at buying into Niman disciple the first chance he got and then playing a lightsaber focused character yet again.

I decided to put a stop to it and told him to not expect to even be using a lightsaber since it got him into so much trouble beforehand and to focus on defensive capabilities and Force powers that can help him and the group instead. He bought into Move and Misdirect, a good amount of skills in both skill trees, and put nothing in lightsaber. He hasn't even gotten to use this new character for more than the introduction and he is already complaining that it will be incredibly boring because he can't use a lightsaber and that's basically the only thing he is interested in when playing this game. I let him know that there are so many other things he can do in this game with skill checks and Force powers but he just doesn't want to see it and is now putting all the blame on me saying that he won't have fun due to the restrictions.

I asked him to give it a chance because we all have fun playing together, as we were all a group of friends before we started playing RPG's, and see if he likes it. Hopefully he will take my advice and give it a shot...I know I restricted him and didn't allow him to use things that are available via RAW, but as this is my game and he made no attempt to be a Light side character or redeem himself I felt as though it was warranted.

TL;DR - Player always plays a characters who is a **** and shoots everything. We were playing a Light side campaign, he fell to the Dark side and didn't redeem himself so I killed off his character and told him to make a new non-lightsaber focused one. He said that I am not allowing him to play how he wants and will make the game dull and boring for him now.

Bye Bill....

Sounds like Bill doesn't want to play in your game. You need to seriously look at how much you want him in your game. Can you and the other players work around his murder-hoboness? Can he reign it in, and be a blunt instrument for the party?

I am running a game now with 5 players that are part of the Rebellion. One of them made a VERY anti-social, psychopathic murder droid who has hooked up with the players for personal reasons. And while he commonly makes horrible commentary on what he wants to do to everyone they meet, the party has figured out to hide him in social situations, and turn him loose in combat situations. Everyone is happy. And it gets to be hilarious when he is accidentally involved in, or even near a conversation with someone they need to treat delicately.

But in my case, the player is not being an A**hole, he is playing the A**hole. What is Bill doing?

Are you familiar with a couple of books put out by John Wick called "Play Dirty" and "Play Dirty 2"? If not look them up and find/buy copies (Google John Wick Presents).

Both are really excellent sources for ideas for GM. some of the advice you can take or leave, but he has a fair amount of advice on how to handle problem players. Also has some good ideas/advice for players.

There are several ways to approach them.

One ; sit how down and talk to him, tell him what is going on and how he's disrupting the story for you and the other players. Ask him to really think about what he's built and what can be done so he can still work the concept he created, maybe some tips on alternative ways to approach problems that could be a LOT more fun than just using a lighstaber...

Two ; [This is the longer and somewhat meaner approach but he may enjoy the challenge] give them what they want ALL of it...and kill them with it...Oh he's going about murdering people with a Lightsaber...have a Bounty Place don him and have him, just him, constantly harassed by Bounty Hunters who take pot shots at a distance, use stun weapons or gas, have wanted posters start showing up everywhere, have the police hunt him down. have businesses close the door in his face, have work dry up because no one wants to work with him (The later will unfortunately affect the party as well, so use sparingly unless you want to turn the whole party against him.) , women ignore him him and call him a murderer when they walk away...etc...

Use his strengths against him, he has Move? Next time he goes to grab an object to move have it be heavier than it looks and he suffers strain trying to pick it up. Is he constantly using Influence to fark with peoples heads? Let him try it on someone who knows what he is doing, good at resisting (Or immune) and has the ability to shut him down either violently or otherwise.

Use his Lightsaber against him...let him run into enemies with Refined Cortosis Ore armor...the kind that shorts out Lighsabers...Or, and this is and old favorite, have him herded into an alley/hallway/room where the only escape is to cur through a steel door or wall...and the other side can be full of something dangerous...Vacuum (sucked into space), Deadly Neurotoxin (In the face), Hard Radiation (BURN!) or even a high-pressure area...make that Athletics check to not be killed by your own Lightsaber or lose a limb...

Three ; If like me you're bad with confrontation this can really be the hardest option to follow through on as it can impact friendship...kick the player out of the group. That's a Toxic relationship and its ruining the fun for other players and for you. If neither of the first two options work then its tough love time, you need to think of everyone else in the group as well as yourself...there is a point where you are spending waaaay to much time dealing with his BS and its detracting form your ability to present a good game.

Hope this helps and Good Luck!

2 minutes ago, Edgookin said:

Sounds like Bill doesn't want to play in your game. You need to seriously look at how much you want him in your game. Can you and the other players work around his murder-hoboness? Can he reign it in, and be a blunt instrument for the party?

I am running a game now with 5 players that are part of the Rebellion. One of them made a VERY anti-social, psychopathic murder droid who has hooked up with the players for personal reasons. And while he commonly makes horrible commentary on what he wants to do to everyone they meet, the party has figured out to hide him in social situations, and turn him loose in combat situations. Everyone is happy. And it gets to be hilarious when he is accidentally involved in, or even near a conversation with someone they need to treat delicately.

But in my case, the player is not being an A**hole, he is playing the A**hole. What is Bill doing?

In my case Bill is playing the a**hole because honestly IRL he is a bit of an a**hole. He is our friend and we love him and all but he does tend to know how to push our buttons and get us going if he wants. He basically plays the same character as if he was playing himself in these different universes...but since he has fewer rules in-game and can shoot people he does that.

We don't want to boot him out, but I have told him that he might just not be compatible with how the rest of the group wants to play. He has caused problems before which spilled over into our group dynamic outside of the game but we ended up working past that.

Idk...he is a friend and I don't want to kick him out, but at the same time it has been frustrating over the years trying to compensate for his murder-hoboness instead of actually roleplaying.

Roll up news paper, smack "bill" in the nose with said news paper, and say "hey! stop that ****"

But in a slightly more serious tone. Why does he do this? Its a game for a group to enjoy together (and the GM is definitely part of that group), if he doesnt want to participate in an agreed on game then he should probably not play. Honestly if i was running that game, i'd have the rest of the PC's kill his character and be done with it. Jedi barely tolerated Anakins nonsense and he was supposedly the chosen one, and as soon as he went dark his literal best friend in the universe instantly when to murder him.

Once he started the same nonsense with the second character i would have given him the choice to leave the group or try to learn something new and "level up" as a role player. Anything can be interesting but if you play the same "i murderface stuff good" character thats just a rut and boring for literally every one else

8 minutes ago, GandofGand said:

Are you familiar with a couple of books put out by John Wick called "Play Dirty" and "Play Dirty 2"? If not look them up and find/buy copies (Google John Wick Presents).

Both are really excellent sources for ideas for GM. some of the advice you can take or leave, but he has a fair amount of advice on how to handle problem players. Also has some good ideas/advice for players.

There are several ways to approach them.

One ; sit how down and talk to him, tell him what is going on and how he's disrupting the story for you and the other players. Ask him to really think about what he's built and what can be done so he can still work the concept he created, maybe some tips on alternative ways to approach problems that could be a LOT more fun than just using a lighstaber...

Two ; [This is the longer and somewhat meaner approach but he may enjoy the challenge] give them what they want ALL of it...and kill them with it...Oh he's going about murdering people with a Lightsaber...have a Bounty Place don him and have him, just him, constantly harassed by Bounty Hunters who take pot shots at a distance, use stun weapons or gas, have wanted posters start showing up everywhere, have the police hunt him down. have businesses close the door in his face, have work dry up because no one wants to work with him (The later will unfortunately affect the party as well, so use sparingly unless you want to turn the whole party against him.) , women ignore him him and call him a murderer when they walk away...etc...

Use his strengths against him, he has Move? Next time he goes to grab an object to move have it be heavier than it looks and he suffers strain trying to pick it up. Is he constantly using Influence to fark with peoples heads? Let him try it on someone who knows what he is doing, good at resisting (Or immune) and has the ability to shut him down either violently or otherwise.

Use his Lightsaber against him...let him run into enemies with Refined Cortosis Ore armor...the kind that shorts out Lighsabers...Or, and this is and old favorite, have him herded into an alley/hallway/room where the only escape is to cur through a steel door or wall...and the other side can be full of something dangerous...Vacuum (sucked into space), Deadly Neurotoxin (In the face), Hard Radiation (BURN!) or even a high-pressure area...make that Athletics check to not be killed by your own Lightsaber or lose a limb...

Three ; If like me you're bad with confrontation this can really be the hardest option to follow through on as it can impact friendship...kick the player out of the group. That's a Toxic relationship and its ruining the fun for other players and for you. If neither of the first two options work then its tough love time, you need to think of everyone else in the group as well as yourself...there is a point where you are spending waaaay to much time dealing with his BS and its detracting form your ability to present a good game.

Hope this helps and Good Luck!

I actually backed John Wick on Kickstarter for 7th Sea so it's cool to find out he wrote some other books! I have tried options #1 and some of #2, maybe not quite as punishingly as I could have, but I tried. I just don't know why he feels the need to use a lightsaber and to kill everything...my game doesn't have TONS of combat, there are a lot of skill checks and puzzles so he would always roll poorly because he was a one-trick pony that only could use his lightsaber well.

I have told him straight up that there are so many other aspects to this game and he shouldn't be focusing so much on combat, but he refuses to see it and I feel like this is just dragging out the inevitable...I am just to scare of kicking him out due to the chance that others from our group of friends choose to follow suit or it becomes awkward between us.

John's been a full-time Game designer for over 20 years, he started with Legend of the Five Rings and later the original Edition of 7th Sea.

Then you need to have a group conversation.

And if wind sup they choose to dump him and go with...then you need to find a new gaming group (Check Meetup and Local FB Groups).

23 minutes ago, Ender07 said:

Idk...he is a friend and I don't want to kick him out, but at the same time it has been frustrating over the years trying to compensate for his murder-hoboness instead of actually roleplaying.

Man, that is a tough call, and from what I've read you've done everything I would have proposed. If you can't say to him, "hey Bill, I get it that this is how you want to play but you're ruining it for everyone else. Do you want to change or sit this one out?" then you're lacking options here. Most adults would respond to that....

1 minute ago, themensch said:

Man, that is a tough call, and from what I've read you've done everything I would have proposed. If you can't say to him, "hey Bill, I get it that this is how you want to play but you're ruining it for everyone else. Do you want to change or sit this one out?" then you're lacking options here. Most adults would respond to that....

Don't get me wrong, it's not for lack of trying...I have told him exactly that though and he chose to keep going because he wants to be part of it. My biggest problem is now instead of changing and trying to view the game from a different perspective it seems he is set on blaming me for his failures and pinning the fact that he won't have fun on me entirely because I won't let him fall into the same tailspin he did last time.

You're putting in too much effort. His turn. You don't need to do anything else except decide whether to axe him. His attitude is infantile.

10 minutes ago, Ender07 said:

Don't get me wrong, it's not for lack of trying...I have told him exactly that though and he chose to keep going because he wants to be part of it. My biggest problem is now instead of changing and trying to view the game from a different perspective it seems he is set on blaming me for his failures and pinning the fact that he won't have fun on me entirely because I won't let him fall into the same tailspin he did last time.

Yeah at this point your only option is to axe him. Take the other players aside first and let them know what and why. You've spent more than enough effort on him...

31 minutes ago, Ender07 said:

Don't get me wrong, it's not for lack of trying...I have told him exactly that though and he chose to keep going because he wants to be part of it. My biggest problem is now instead of changing and trying to view the game from a different perspective it seems he is set on blaming me for his failures and pinning the fact that he won't have fun on me entirely because I won't let him fall into the same tailspin he did last time.

I hear that, I do see that you've done a lot here to smooth the situation over, but some things can't be fixed. I think his impetus for blaming you for his failures were your attempt to reign him in during play, which is one good reason to not try to fix out-of-game problems in-game. However, you've done everything else I can imagine except not ask him back, which of course has repercussions too. What does the rest of the group think? This isn't all on you as the GM, if everyone at the table agrees, then everyone should say so. Just like nobody wants to play board games with a friend that cheats, the old saying "bad gaming is worse than no gaming" is particularly apt.

Use the rule from prior editions. If you fall to the dark side, your character becomes an NPC.

To be honest tho, I would just kick him out. If he isnt going to play by the rules agreed upon at the start, then he doesnt need to play.

If you want to give him another chance, talk with the other players first, find out what they want. Then approach him as a group, and tell him how everyone wants to play, give him 1 chance, and if he won't go with it, he has to go.

But you never know, you may get interesting feedback from other players, ranging from the end where they like how he plays, to them telling you things that you haven't heard before. He may be making everyone uncomfortable, and they didn't want to rock the boat because he was your friend.

26 minutes ago, korjik said:

Use the rule from prior editions. If you fall to the dark side, your character becomes an NPC.

To be honest tho, I would just kick him out. If he isnt going to play by the rules agreed upon at the start, then he doesnt need to play.

Also keep in mind, that if he falls below 0 Morality he DOES become an NPC...THAT is in the rules...

...but save yourself that argument and get rid of him.

Dumb idea:

Can Bill play Anakin?

I mean can you take a Bill character, have him rope it in a tad so the Darkside can grow and evolve in him over the campaign, and then have it explode, he turns dark and the last adventure is the other players trying to stop Bill? Make that the plan from the get go and get Bill in on it?

I mean, might not work, but sometimes you can get a little more from cooperative campaigning instead of trying to force the theme....

Bill needs a new GM. Because his old one does not want to play the same game as Bill. Problem solved. I mean, seriously, wtf.

2 hours ago, Ender07 said:

We were playing a Light side campaign, he fell to the Dark side and didn't redeem himself so I killed off his character and told him to make a new non-lightsaber focused one. He said that I am not allowing him to play how he wants and will make the game dull and boring for him now.

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Bill needs a new GM. Because his old one does not want to play the same game as Bill. Problem solved. I mean, seriously, wtf.

This feels like a slight towards me, I may be reading it wrong, but either way it is true. I want to play the game in a certain setting and he doesn't. He should find a group that will tolerate his murder hobo antics... The biggest problem is my core group of friends all play this game and either he'll be left out or it will alienate me because I kicked him out.

45 minutes ago, GandofGand said:

Also keep in mind, that if he falls below 0 Morality he DOES become an NPC...THAT is in the rules...

...but save yourself that argument and get rid of him.

Where is that exactly? I don't remember that otherwise he would have been an NPC long ago...

I think the intent was that Bill needs to move on and find a GM that suits his play-style...and there's even a handy line to use on him...

"You're obviously not getting out of this game what you would like to out of this game, I think it's time you found a game and group that suits your play-style..."

8)

2 minutes ago, Ender07 said:

Where is that exactly? I don't remember that otherwise he would have been an NPC long ago...

I'm not sure and I don't have my books with me, but t was a topic of discussion here...and honestly thinking about it it may have been a house rule for our living campaign...I'll go ask on our FB group.

3 hours ago, Ender07 said:

So I always seem to be hitting the forums when I have a problem with the same player time and again to get everyone's advice. This time around I already made my decision, but according to my player I am stifling him and not allowing him to "play how he wants to" which is going to make the game "incredibly dull and boring" for him.

In a nutshell:

No GM is 'required' to allow a player to play a character that is antithetical to the theme of the campaign and disruptive to other players at the table (and the GM is one of those players too).

You were clear up front it is to be a 'lightsided' theme game and the PCs are to be the good guys. It is up to the player to find a way to work within that restriction, and if they are so hidebound they cannot find a way to craft a creative character that goes beyond 'murder hobo' then the only answer is "You need to sit this campaign out".

I would further say, there is nothing more you can or should try in game to 'fix' this issue. It is clearly a player issue, and one that is not going to be resolved in game. 'Bill' either needs to change his attitude or he needs to be excluded from your gaming group.

Okay to clarify, it's a suggestion in the Force and Destiny Morality section. So unless it was stated up front adding it now won't solve anything.

Best suggest is still to get rid of the guy then set up a new game contract and set that as a Hard Rule...

This is a social problem that has nothing to do with the game. You can't resolve this in the game if the player doesn't want to change how they play.

I'm willing to bet this player has never GM'd a game of their own. IMHO, every player should take a stab at it, if only to realize how much work it is. Some players just take it for granted, I'd bet if you challenged him to host a few games of his own he'd panic . Then if he actually has the courage, just kill the first friendly NPC he puts out there and let him try and deal with it. If he declines, then he's a lazy dumbass who expects his entertainment on a silver platter. If he goes for it, then maybe he'll get a clue...some people don't get it until they've walked in the shoes... Or not...it's probable his session will have zero story line and be all about how much mayhem he can produce, and you'll all end up killed off with no real purpose or reason.

Anyway, personally I'd kick the player out, diplomatically if possible. Just state the obvious: "You want to play a different kind of game. If you want that, host your own, don't ruin mine." If that leads to other friends being mad at you for it, then challenge them to host a game. I'd rather dissolve the game before letting someone ruin the experience for everyone, or let the game turn into something I'm not interested in. Who needs that kind of hassle?

I've been lucky, everyone I play with currently has GM'd a story arc at least once, so they get the difficulties and respect the boundaries. But I have been close to your situation: there are several other people (non-GMs) who "like to play", but I've had it suggested that they're "not really into Star Wars, how about doing something else?" And I've told those people "how about you host that 'something else'?" Invariably they mutter something about "time" and "commitments". Well, that's not my problem, I have commitments too, I just prioritize my free time differently.