1 hour ago, DreadStar said:

That's besides the point, which is making a ship that can beat X ship in a vacuum is pointless. And it is not competitive at all. You can't just make a pointless build and then tell people to slap some aces and that's a perfectly valid competitive build. It's not. I mean really you have to be excessively confident to had been telling imperial players that they just don't know how to deal with K-wings and they need to get better and more creative, and then post that abomination.

Vader isn't there for you to use always, it's there to guarantee damage and as an excellent finisher. It really puts aces in their nerves on a turret, specially the ones withouth shields but mostly that's why you take it, not to use it every turn, but as finisher or against autothruster's aces, but yeah, you can change it for rebel captive if you want, but no, don't remove predator. Is it top on the competition ? no, the decimator isn't there for starters, while the K-wing sure is.

Read the previous posts man.

I was ASKED (well someone said there was no Deci that could handle her for the same price, actually) for a Decimator and or Kylo build that beats Miranda Doni. This one does.

It's also a different question if you want to deal with K-Wings in general or just Doni. Because a 3- Warden TLT or Bomber lists or Just Miranda plus X are very different animals!

And besides that the modified version with EU and Gunner is very decent against expensive Aces because of Kylo and Gunner. Therefore think Vader is pretty much redundant. Captive or maybe Ysanne is probably more useful in the long run.

For a second ship i would go for the exact opposite as the Decimator. Something that is fragile and maneuvrable and can handle Swarms. The good old Whisper, Soontir or a high PS Defender might work.

This build is actually really good against anything that does not have tons of HP. It can handle other 2-ship lists and it can definitely handle fragile aces. It's decent against Defenders and Many rebel 3-ship lists. It will struggle against U-Boats and the like, maybe also Kanan/Biggs

It's not the same sort of all-comers list that Palpmobile was. But it's definitely a serious effort of going new ways, and more than anyone of the whiny crowd here has posted.

If you want the next OP list for Imps, well maybe then put some effort in testing yourself!

2 hours ago, ForceM said:

Read the previous posts man.

I was ASKED (well someone said there was no Deci that could handle her for the same price, actually) for a Decimator and or Kylo build that beats Miranda Doni. This one does.

It's also a different question if you want to deal with K-Wings in general or just Doni. Because a 3- Warden TLT or Bomber lists or Just Miranda plus X are very different animals!

And besides that the modified version with EU and Gunner is very decent against expensive Aces because of Kylo and Gunner. Therefore think Vader is pretty much redundant. Captive or maybe Ysanne is probably more useful in the long run.

For a second ship i would go for the exact opposite as the Decimator. Something that is fragile and maneuvrable and can handle Swarms. The good old Whisper, Soontir or a high PS Defender might work.

This build is actually really good against anything that does not have tons of HP. It can handle other 2-ship lists and it can definitely handle fragile aces. It's decent against Defenders and Many rebel 3-ship lists. It will struggle against U-Boats and the like, maybe also Kanan/Biggs

It's not the same sort of all-comers list that Palpmobile was. But it's definitely a serious effort of going new ways, and more than anyone of the whiny crowd here has posted.

If you want the next OP list for Imps, well maybe then put some effort in testing yourself!

I dont want to be mean but the more i read you, the more i'm not sure you know what you are talking about. First you said defenders were aces. Then you said the nerfed defenders were really good vs Uboats, some of the best blockers in the game.

And now this. The decimator is the ship i've played the most. I've probably tried any combination you can think about. Even double decimator builds. RAC doesnt have a problem vs higher hp ships. It was doing good vs Parattanni. It's vs aces and high offense that he struggles. Thats why you upgrade him with Hotcop or Vader. Without them his poorly moded 3 dices attacks are easily avoided by high defense. In the case of Parattanni, it was for Fenn.

Currently the two top builds in the meta are Miranda+Biggs+Stressbot and Triple Jumps. Kylo RAC is going nowhere vs that. Uboats just DESTROY him, it's not even funny. Vs the Miranda build, a stressbot that can get in your face while protected by Biggs means no Kylo for the part of the game where he counts the most.

You dont partner RAC with a fragile ship at the moment because of bombing kwings and TLTs. I've been testing RAC+Quickdraw/Backdraft for some time and they are probably it's best partner for now.

There was no OP list for imperials pre nerf. Please go look at list juggler and stop giving false informations. I'm pretty sure we would have had a perfect balance with just the scum nerf. You said it yourself, Rebels were not struggling vs Imps pre nerf. The dominant buils were all Scums. We dont have balance now, we have an underperforming faction.

Someone said this in another post: "top players decided to not bring Imperial builds to the Opens because it was their opinion that they would not compete. Those that did bring them underperformed." Nothing you can say will contradict that because it's the only fact we have. Anything else is pure speculation.

4 hours ago, Thormind said:

I dont want to be mean but the more i read you, the more i'm not sure you know what you are talking about. First you said defenders were aces. Then you said the nerfed defenders were really good vs Uboats, some of the best blockers in the game.

And now this. The decimator is the ship i've played the most. I've probably tried any combination you can think about. Even double decimator builds. RAC doesnt have a problem vs higher hp ships. It was doing good vs Parattanni. It's vs aces and high offense that he struggles. Thats why you upgrade him with Hotcop or Vader. Without them his poorly moded 3 dices attacks are easily avoided by high defense. In the case of Parattanni, it was for Fenn.

Currently the two top builds in the meta are Miranda+Biggs+Stressbot and Triple Jumps. Kylo RAC is going nowhere vs that. Uboats just DESTROY him, it's not even funny. Vs the Miranda build, a stressbot that can get in your face while protected by Biggs means no Kylo for the part of the game where he counts the most.

You dont partner RAC with a fragile ship at the moment because of bombing kwings and TLTs. I've been testing RAC+Quickdraw/Backdraft for some time and they are probably it's best partner for now.

There was no OP list for imperials pre nerf. Please go look at list juggler and stop giving false informations. I'm pretty sure we would have had a perfect balance with just the scum nerf. You said it yourself, Rebels were not struggling vs Imps pre nerf. The dominant buils were all Scums. We dont have balance now, we have an underperforming faction.

Someone said this in another post: "top players decided to not bring Imperial builds to the Opens because it was their opinion that they would not compete. Those that did bring them underperformed." Nothing you can say will contradict that because it's the only fact we have. Anything else is pure speculation.

Defenders were and are ok vs U-Boats. They have the HP, Agility and tokens to weather the first Torpedo salvo without losing anyone, and do decent damage in return. After that the best player wins. If you get blocked too much, you lose, if you kill one of the Torp Boats before taking your first loss, you generally win.

With the Decimator, i had exactly the opposite experience. It could often whittle down aces, if you had gunner, and now with kylo one hit you get through matters even more. Against Dengaroo and Parattani there was less chances since they just can outdamage you and that's it. But hey you are the self proclaimed Decimator guru, so your subjective experiences must matter more than mine.

YOU are the one misinforming people here. Commonwealth Defenders, Palp Aces were both top 5 lists in the period from Wave 8 to the big nerfing. Triple Defender comes in 6th for that period. First Rebel list comes in 10th for said period. On your list juggler. Scum has the top lists that is true. But Imps had just as many top 10 lists as Scum so saying they had no OP builds is just plain and simple a convenient lie!

Wave 10 to the big nerf timeframe sees a Rebel build at rank 3 but imps still have two top 5 lists. Here you see how long it took Rebels to slowly crawl back into the meta. It took several nerfs to J5Ks in order to make that possible and what? More than one and a half year?

And you want to tell us now that poor Empire just is dead after not even 3 weeks of new meta? And that nothing can be done by listbuilding and creativity?? Total nonsense!

The second dud in your post is that imps are underperforming now. Yes, Some Rebel builds were mostly held back by Scum U-Boats and Dengaroo, not Empire. But that doesn't change the fact that triple Defenders still work totally fine (Are also still place 7 in this yet undefined meta for all that it matters in this short time), for Palpmobile we need more time to know the performance and we are still waiting for some Imperial experimental lists (One of them is place 9 and called Cerberus consisting of Omega, Backdraft, Rexler).

Just like there were slowly improving Rebel experimental lists after U-Boats dropped and they had to overthink their builds.

You are just too impatient and "upset" to wait for that to happen. To make it crystal clear: You have no more of an idea where this meta is going than me or anyone else and the timespan is still too short to even see if Imps do or do not underperform. It might be the case if we don't see them produce results in the next few months. But you take that as a given and i really don't. And only iIF it really happens, IF they don't perform over the next months and IF the new releases change nothing, only then there will be further balancing by FFG i suppose.

In the end, it feels somewhat just that Rebels seem to be finally back to the real competition. I think you should give them their time in the sun too if they can now get it and stop the envy.

List Archetypes - X-Wing Meta Analyzer.htm

2 hours ago, ForceM said:

Defenders were and are ok vs U-Boats. They have the HP, Agility and tokens to weather the first Torpedo salvo without losing anyone, and do decent damage in return. After that the best player wins. If you get blocked too much, you lose, if you kill one of the Torp Boats before taking your first loss, you generally win.

With the Decimator, i had exactly the opposite experience. It could often whittle down aces, if you had gunner, and now with kylo one hit you get through matters even more. Against Dengaroo and Parattani there was less chances since they just can outdamage you and that's it. But hey you are the self proclaimed Decimator guru, so your subjective experiences must matter more than mine.

YOU are the one misinforming people here. Commonwealth Defenders, Palp Aces were both top 5 lists in the period from Wave 8 to the big nerfing. Triple Defender comes in 6th for that period. First Rebel list comes in 10th for said period. On your list juggler. Scum has the top lists that is true. But Imps had just as many top 10 lists as Scum so saying they had no OP builds is just plain and simple a convenient lie!

Wave 10 to the big nerf timeframe sees a Rebel build at rank 3 but imps still have two top 5 lists. Here you see how long it took Rebels to slowly crawl back into the meta. It took several nerfs to J5Ks in order to make that possible and what? More than one and a half year?

And you want to tell us now that poor Empire just is dead after not even 3 weeks of new meta? And that nothing can be done by listbuilding and creativity?? Total nonsense!

The second dud in your post is that imps are underperforming now. Yes, Some Rebel builds were mostly held back by Scum U-Boats and Dengaroo, not Empire. But that doesn't change the fact that triple Defenders still work totally fine (Are also still place 7 in this yet undefined meta for all that it matters in this short time), for Palpmobile we need more time to know the performance and we are still waiting for some Imperial experimental lists (One of them is place 9 and called Cerberus consisting of Omega, Backdraft, Rexler).

Just like there were slowly improving Rebel experimental lists after U-Boats dropped and they had to overthink their builds.

You are just too impatient and "upset" to wait for that to happen. To make it crystal clear: You have no more of an idea where this meta is going than me or anyone else and the timespan is still too short to even see if Imps do or do not underperform. It might be the case if we don't see them produce results in the next few months. But you take that as a given and i really don't. And only iIF it really happens, IF they don't perform over the next months and IF the new releases change nothing, only then there will be further balancing by FFG i suppose.

In the end, it feels somewhat just that Rebels seem to be finally back to the real competition. I think you should give them their time in the sun too if they can now get it and stop the envy.

List Archetypes - X-Wing Meta Analyzer.htm

Three points:

1) Your data is old and incomplete. You seem to be forgetting in your attempt to portray the Rebels as the poor underdog that Rebels were the runner up for last Worlds, losing to Scum. This was during the high point of Palp and x7. Now, lists like the one that almost won worlds have reduced enemies that it was beating anyway.

2) Your last paragraph suggests a double standard. As I have said, I saw plenty of Rebel whining and concerns during the reign of U-Boats. Why should Imperials grin and bear it when Rebels did not?

3)You are using a lot of theoreticals while we have been using recent tournament results. You have yet to explain why your declarations that certain builds are still good is more accurate than the recent data. Would you please clarify.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

3)You are using a lot of theoreticals while we have been using recent tournament results. You have yet to explain why your declarations that certain builds are still good is more accurate than the recent data. Would you please clarify.

He cant, thats the problem...

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

List Archetypes - X-Wing Meta Analyzer.htm

Not sure the positions on the site are correct, i prefer to use list juggler to get my stats. But lets look at what we can find from that address:

- If we go under "ship types" what do we have? Only one imperial ship in the top 10. In a "balanced" meta each faction would have at least 3 ships in that range. Imps have one, scums have 5 and Rebels have 5 (yeah, thats more than 10, the Ywing is cross faction). We have to go at top 15 to get 3 ships but by then the other factions have 12...

-If we go into "pilots" its even worst, the first imperial ship is 11th.

-In "list archetypes" the first imperial squad is 7th. We have 1 build in the top 15 and we have to wait at 20 to get 3 squads.

If we look from january 1st to march 17:

- The first Imperial ships are at 4th and 5th position. The empire has 2 ships in the top 10 and 6 ships in the top 20, quite balanced. The meta is dominated by scums, not Imperials.

- The first imperial pilots are at 4-5-6. We have 3 pilots in the top 10 and 4 in the top 20. The pilot list is again clearly dominated by scums.

- We have 2nd and 3rd best archetypes BUT we have 3 in the top 10 and 7 in the top 20. It's still quite balance and nowhere near as dominant as you pretend it was. If we look at the same meta from january 1st 2016 our best position is 3rd. We have 7 archetypes in the top 20. Again not dominating at all.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

YOU are the one misinforming people here.

I was saying imperial were not dominating before FAQ and now have no competitive options. Your data actually prove i was correct... All they needed to do was nerf scums and keep Imperials as they were. Rebels would have naturally been able to compete again. You said yourself that Rebels did not have problems with Imps...

10 minutes ago, Thormind said:

He cant, thats the problem...

Not sure the positions on the site are correct, i prefer to use list juggler to get my stats. But lets look at what we can find from that address:

- If we go under "ship types" what do we have? Only one imperial ship in the top 10. In a "balanced" meta each faction would have at least 3 ships in that range. Imps have one, scums have 5 and Rebels have 5 (yeah, thats more than 10, the Ywing is cross faction). We have to go at top 15 to get 3 ships but by then the other factions have 12...

-If we go into "pilots" its even worst, the first imperial ship is 11th.

-In "list archetypes" the first imperial squad is 7th. We have 1 build in the top 15 and we have to wait at 20 to get 3 squads.

If we look from january 1st to march 17:

- The first Imperial ships are at 4th and 5th position. The empire has 2 ships in the top 10 and 6 ships in the top 20, quite balanced. The meta is dominated by scums, not Imperials.

- The first imperial pilots are at 4-5-6. We have 3 pilots in the top 10 and 4 in the top 20. The pilot list is again clearly dominated by scums.

- We have 2nd and 3rd best archetypes BUT we have 3 in the top 10 and 7 in the top 20. It's still quite balance and nowhere near as dominant as you pretend it was. If we look at the same meta from january 1st 2016 our best position is 3rd. We have 7 archetypes in the top 20. Again not dominating at all.

I was saying imperial were not dominating before FAQ and now have no competitive options. Your data actually prove i was correct... All they needed to do was nerf scums and keep Imperials as they were. Rebels would have naturally been able to compete again. You said yourself that Rebels did not have problems with Imps...

In b4 Force comes in to tell you that Imps are just uncreative and that all their woes are because they just need to find that hidden Holy Grail Imp ship that doesn't exist.

17 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I was saying imperial were not dominating before FAQ and now have no competitive options.

6 minutes ago, Johen Dood said:

In b4 Force comes in to tell you that Imps are just uncreative and that all their woes are because they just need to find that hidden Holy Grail Imp ship that doesn't exist.

Now, to be crystal clear, I am not convinced that the Imps have no competitive options. While an alarming low rate of Imperial lists made cuts, some did make it. I have also been seeing friends experiment with new /sf lists that make me very hopeful for future success. This is still in testing phases and haven't been taken to big events yet, so I'm not going to tote it as an assurance that everything is fine. But there is hope. Yeah, yeah, hope's a Rebel thing according to Rogue One. I'm still stealing it.

And to prevent this being used too much against me, I do think early data is not looking good for the Empire. Scum adjusted just fine, while the Empire took a dive. As AlexW has pointed out, the Empire doesn't have the tool box that Rebels or Scum do. And while there are some potential "holy grails" to be found in the Empire's docking bays, some imperial players have been testing for them since before we even knew about the nerf. And if only a few Empire players felt confident enough to try what they had come up with, then that is even more worrying.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Now, to be crystal clear, I am not convinced that the Imps have no competitive options. While an alarming low rate of Imperial lists made cuts, some did make it. I have also been seeing friends experiment with new /sf lists that make me very hopeful for future success. This is still in testing phases and haven't been taken to big events yet, so I'm not going to tote it as an assurance that everything is fine. But there is hope. Yeah, yeah, hope's a Rebel thing according to Rogue One. I'm still stealing it.

And to prevent this being used too much against me, I do think early data is not looking good for the Empire. Scum adjusted just fine, while the Empire took a dive. As AlexW has pointed out, the Empire doesn't have the tool box that Rebels or Scum do. And while there are some potential "holy grails" to be found in the Empire's docking bays, some imperial players have been testing for them since before we even knew about the nerf. And if only a few Empire players felt confident enough to try what they had come up with, then that is even more worrying.

Ive been testing the changes to both palp and the X7 for almost a month now, both live and on Vassal. I'm nowhere near top level but i used to be able to perform decently with both Commonwealth, Triple x7 and RAC+X7. All 3 options took a HUGE hit. Just think about it:

- Defenders a highly predictable ships. It's quite easy to get in range, block or stress them. I believe the nerf would have been fine with only one of the two changes: either bump/obstacle OR stress. Having both is what killed them. What can you do vs a triple Jumpmasters wall?? You will be blocked and you will lose that evade. Same vs stressbot, you will get that double stress.

- Palp is just not good, nothing else to say. He's not worth the points needed to bring him. People keep saying it was just a small change but they fail to realize how big of an impact it has. Palp was good because of it's flexibility. While testing him it doesnt take long to find out how many time he's been wasted because you called him and did not have to mod your dices. I would say it's probably at least 30% of the time. He used to be good every turn and now he lost around 30% effectiveness. That's not small.

On top of that when you do get a chance to use him, you have to change the dice before reroll. That's a big statiscal lost. Just that change alone would have probably been enough. Like keep him as he was but apply him before reroll. That would have been a good, balanced fix. I'm still amazed by how many people still play him wrong even one month after the nerf. Most player i face on Vassal are waiting after reroll to try and change a dice with him like he used to work...

We dont know how good the Sf will turn out to be. IMO the Lightweight Frame was the missing element it needed to become a good ship. I'm not sure it's ever going to reach the top spot. That's really just my personal opinion but i feel it's missing just a little something to go from good to great.

3 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Ive been testing the changes to both palp and the X7 for almost a month now, both live and on Vassal. I'm nowhere near top level but i used to ba able to perform decently with both Commonwealth, Triple x7 and RAC+X7. All 3 options took a HUGE hit. Just think about it:

- Defenders a highly predictable ships. It's quite easy to get in range, block or stress them. i believe the nerf would have been fine with only one of the two change: either bump/obstacle OR stress. Having both is what killed them. What can you do vs a triple Jumpmasters wall?? You will be blocked and you will lose that evade. Same vs stressbot, you will get that double stress.

- Palp is just not good, nothing else to say. He's not worth the points needed to bring him. People keep saying it was just a small change but they fail to realize how big of an impact it has. Palp was good because of it's flexibility. While testing him it doesnt take long to find out how many time he's been wasted because you called him and did not have to mod your dices. I would say it's probably at least 30-40% of the time. He used to be good every turn and now he lost around 30-40% effectiveness. That's not small.

On top of that when you do get a chance to use him, you have to change the dice before reroll. That's a big statiscal lost. Just that change would have probably been enough. Like keep him as he was but apply him before reroll. That would have been a good, balanced fix. I'm still amazed by how many people still play him wrong even one month after the nerf. Most player i face on Vassal are waiting after reroll to try and change a dice with him like he used to work...

By and large, I agree.

Defender's are still solid frames, but I feel more and more lists will add what preys on their new weaknesses, such as great blockers like the Bumpmaster, and/or stress control like the Stresshog. The x7 has been one of the Imperial boogiemen, so will likely be built against for some time to come. I think that it's still a solid ship, but it is not currently proving to be good at overcoming its new predators currently. Definitely agree that it should have been stress or blocking that stopped the token, but not both. Personal preference for blocking.

On the subject of Palp, I have less hope. Like you said, his value came from his flexibility. A friend of mine who has used Palp a fair bit felt it would have been better to nerf his range rather than what FFG did do. If they had knocked down his points and/or slot requirements, it might have worked. But like this, I do not expect him to see much if any upper level play.

On 4/1/2017 at 2:02 PM, Lampyridae said:

You literally have so much manoeuvrability when flying most Imp ships it's crazy. With Rebels, you can be creative with your lists, but with your movement you have to work a lot harder and plan two moves ahead - otherwise you wind up disappointed.

...or with an Imperial ship you also have to plan 2 moves ahead because you don't have 4 shields that regenerate, astromechs that rebuild your ship, turrets that fire 4 times a turn, a SLAM drive (don't talk to me about moving all over the board) or 16 frell'n hit points on just one of your three ships on the table... like the Rebels do.

Don't try to paint access to more backstabbing green dice as easy button mode... we certainly aren't blessed with Kanan/Biggs/M9 or Miranda/Bombs/Sabine synergy... our little guys work hard for their money

3 hours ago, Lobokai said:

...or with an Imperial ship you also have to plan 2 moves ahead because you don't have 4 shields that regenerate, astromechs that rebuild your ship, turrets that fire 4 times a turn, a SLAM drive (don't talk to me about moving all over the board) or 16 frell'n hit points on just one of your three ships on the table... like the Rebels do.

Don't try to paint access to more backstabbing green dice as easy button mode... we certainly aren't blessed with Kanan/Biggs/M9 or Miranda/Bombs/Sabine synergy... our little guys work hard for their money

Maybe you should read the part where I talked about balancing list creativity against superior movement which is exactly what you are complaining about. That's exactly what playing different factions means, and it's a positive.

EDIT: For typo. And... 16 hit points? I'm so sorry to hear the Decimator is banned.

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:56 AM, Thormind said:

I look at the last 2 major competitive events:

Naboo results: no Imperial in the top 8. There was TLTs (5) and PWT(3). In those squads there was 3 with a bombing K wing and there was 3 with Jumpmasters.

Tatoine had only 1 Imperial in the top 8 (triple Ds... :-) All other squads had either PWT (3) or TLT (4). There was 2 with bombing K wings and 3 with Jumpmasters.

When for 2 major events 15 squads out of 16 in the top 8 had turrets and there was only 1 Imperial squad, i think we have a pattern. Turrets > maneuverability which is Imps specialty. TLTs > high agility ships, which is another Imperial specialty. Slaming bombers (with TLTs!) beat both agi and maneuverability...

The only things that was keeping Imperials competitive have been nerfed. Not saying it wasnt needed but it reveals some design flaws. Giving the faction access to TLTs might be a temporary fix but i think something needs to be done to make maneuverability and agility useful again. If the game become turrets vs turrets wouldnt it remove part of the fun?

As an Imperial player i am also upset that i had to buy a 100$ ship to get the 1 upgrade card i needed to be competitive only to see it nerfed to oblivion 3 months later. Now i'm left with what 300-500% dollars of weak ships? Not fun for someone whos been playing for less than a year. Not sure i want to spend that much again to have access to a good faction...

Good, suffer. Now you know what it feels like to not be able to play what you like. Couldn't play my TIE Fighters because the meta was filled with ships that could completely blank and still dodge all of my attacks anyways.

You're mad that you can't autopilot with Palp Defenders and that your $200 worth of ships isn't competitive anymore. What about my 8 useless TIE Fighters?

3 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Good, suffer. Now you know what it feels like to not be able to play what you like. Couldn't play my TIE Fighters because the meta was filled with ships that could completely blank and still dodge all of my attacks anyways.

You're mad that you can't autopilot with Palp Defenders and that your $200 worth of ships isn't competitive anymore. What about my 8 useless TIE Fighters?

6 hours ago, Lampyridae said:

Maybe you should read the part where I talked about balancing list creativity against superior movement which is exactly what you are complaining about. That's exactly what playing different factions means, and it's a positive.

EDIT: For typo. And... 16 hit points? I'm so sorry to hear the Decimator is banned.

I'd argue that the strengths of different factions are only a positive if they are actually strengths. Right now, movement is not enough on its own, so the disparity in other areas (fewer unique upgrade cards and fewer slots to use) is becoming more of a factor.

Superior movement and agility has been targeted Wave after Wave thanks to Soontir Fel to the point where it's just not enough anymore. If it's not enough for Fel who is the Imperial epitome of both action economy (on one ship) and repositioning, then the rest of the Imperials based on that strength and paying a premium for it, which are quite a few, are going to be in an even tougher spot.

I'll reiterate that I think there are competitive imperial options but there are a lot fewer of them then there were and those that are are less consistent and/or have much harder counters.

3 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I'll reiterate that I think there are competitive imperial options but there are a lot fewer of them then there were and those that are are less consistent and/or have much harder counters.

This line sums up this whole thread. There's a few options for Imps, but you'd better fly perfect, not have bad dice, and pray you get the right opponents- or you're gonna have a bad time.

22 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

This line sums up this whole thread. There's a few options for Imps, but you'd better fly perfect, not have bad dice, and pray you get the right opponents- or you're gonna have a bad time.

I would add that the pressure is now almost always on the Imperial player side. The margin of error for scums and Rebels is much higher. Also im pretty sure (opinion here) that if you take 2 opponents with top builds, same high skill level, average dice results on both side and same number of mistake made, the Imperial player will lose probably 75% of the time.

With the kind of offense power we have at the moment, average rolls on low defense/high health is much better than average results on high difense/low health. This is not a new problem, it's common in rpgs. It's really hard to balance melee fighters that rely on dodge/parry compared to melee that rely on armor and/or health. The spot where avoidance % is high enough to keep the fighter alive without making him almost invincible is thin. It's probably one of the most difficult thing to balance in a game.

On 2017-04-04 at 2:54 AM, Lampyridae said:

Maybe you should read the part where I talked about balancing list creativity against superior movement which is exactly what you are complaining about. That's exactly what playing different factions means, and it's a positive.

EDIT: For typo. And... 16 hit points? I'm so sorry to hear the Decimator is banned.

I'm not sure i understant why you say it's banned but about the part where you mention the 16 hit points... Lets compare the decimator to the other ship with 16 health, the ghost:

- Decimator has 4 shields, ghost has 6. Decimator is more sensitive to crits. Any player with half decent experience playing it will tell you crits are probably one of it's biggest weakness.

- Both ships have similar dials but the ghost has access to a k turn that can be performed at all time, even when stressed (from crew).

- Ghost has both a 4 dice primary attack with rear arc and a turret upgrade. It can both attack with up to 5 dice when at range 1 or be greatly reliable with TLT.

- Ghost can perform evade action.

- The best Ghost pilot can debuff Opponent ship attacks (-1 dice rolled)

- Ghost is cheaper. The best pilot cost 8 points less that RAC.

- Decimator is currently 23rd on list juggler. Ghost is 9th...

Balance?

Comparing the Ghost to the Decimator that way isn't really taking in the whole picture. You talk about how Hera is 8 points less than RAC, yet for her to fullfill a remotely similar role, she needs to purchase 18 points of shuttlebay-filler. The Decimator has 3 crew slots, making it the best platform for the extremely strong HSCP/Gunner combo. It can abuse EU to the max, as its offensive power is completely independent of its facing. Sure, Ghosts have an Evade action, but when will they ever use that? Kanan won't. Hera will, but rarely and she isn't anywhere near Kanans popularity. Furthermore, while she isn't as good as Rebel Captive or Vader, Ysanne Isard provides the better durability with the potential for shenanigans.

And that isn't even talking about Kylo, who I don't think is a good crew choice (although many disagree), but whose shuttle makes an excellent wingman for RAC, the pilot with the best inclination for dark side demonstrations.

33 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I'm not sure i understant why you say it's banned but about the part where you mention the 16 hit points... Lets compare the decimator to the other ship with 16 health, the ghost:

Because you said:

Quote

or 16 frell'n hit points on just one of your three ships on the table... like the Rebels do.

I was making a joke. The fact that you say Rebs have a 16 hitpoint ship when Imperials don't (and it's the ship you fly the most) reduces your credibility. @Admiral Deathrain has basically summed up what I was going to say.

Personally, I dislike the Ghost and haven't bothered buying it yet. It also has a pile of incredible cards which are almost as good as Scum crew. Kanan Biggs can easily be run with just the core set, K-Wing and the Ghost. Unlike the U-Wing, whose apparent purpose is to get blown up.

Kanan is 9th on list juggler, right behind Biggs because even with his awesome skill, without Biggs and Tactical Jammer he's toast. Rebels don't like Biggs but they have to use him. The difference between the Decimator and the Ghost is Biggs.

1 hour ago, Lampyridae said:

Because you said:

I was making a joke. The fact that you say Rebs have a 16 hitpoint ship when Imperials don't

I never said that... Can you point me to the quote where you believe i said such a thing please? I know imps have a 16 health ship, it's the one i play the most.

The difference between Ghost/Decimator is not just Biggs, i just listed 7 of them. If you look for the ship on list juggler youll find many successful builds that dont involve Biggs. Like the ones with Rey or the ones with Ashoka, or the ones with Poe, or the ones with YT-2400...

1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Comparing the Ghost to the Decimator that way isn't really taking in the whole picture. You talk about how Hera is 8 points less than RAC, yet for her to fullfill a remotely similar role, she needs to purchase 18 points of shuttlebay-filler. The Decimator has 3 crew slots, making it the best platform for the extremely strong HSCP/Gunner combo. It can abuse EU to the max, as its offensive power is completely independent of its facing. Sure, Ghosts have an Evade action, but when will they ever use that? Kanan won't. Hera will, but rarely and she isn't anywhere near Kanans popularity. Furthermore, while she isn't as good as Rebel Captive or Vader, Ysanne Isard provides the better durability with the potential for shenanigans.

And that isn't even talking about Kylo, who I don't think is a good crew choice (although many disagree), but whose shuttle makes an excellent wingman for RAC, the pilot with the best inclination for dark side demonstrations.

Yet Decimator is 23rd and Ghost is 9th. They both have very similar offense effectiveness. But the Ghost is way better in term of defense and maneuverability.

Kanan + FCS + TLT + Hera + Recon + Title is 50 points. Thats 10 points less than a standard RAC build but just as good, if not better.

Calculating the shuttle in the price of the ship is misleading because 1) it's not needed for every builds 2) It is an extra ship with an extra ability, 3 attack dices, 2 shield and 2 hull.

Upsilon is a bad partner choice because the decimator need a good finisher.

24 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I never said that... Can you point me to the quote where you believe i said such a thing please? I know imps have a 16 health ship, it's the one i play the most.

The difference between Ghost/Decimator is not just Biggs, i just listed 7 of them. If you look for the ship on list juggler youll find many successful builds that dont involve Biggs. Like the ones with Rey or the ones with Ashoka, or the ones with Poe, or the ones with YT-2400...

I quoted you right in my post...

Oh never mind.

3 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yet Decimator is 23rd and Ghost is 9th. They both have very similar offense effectiveness. But the Ghost is way better in term of defense and maneuverability.

Kanan + FCS + TLT + Hera + Recon + Title is 50 points. Thats 10 points less than a standard RAC build but just as good, if not better.

Calculating the shuttle in the price of the ship is misleading because 1) it's not needed for every builds 2) It is an extra ship with an extra ability, 3 attack dices, 2 shield and 2 hull.

Upsilon is a bad partner choice because the decimator need a good finisher.

I agree with this entirely. The Deci is good in it's own right, but in NO WAY does it match up to the large ships of the other factions. Ghost, Shadowcaster, Jumpmaster- all of them outclass the Decimator both in flexibility (amazing slots) and just crazy dials or pilot abilities. I'd even say the falcon outclasses the Deci due to it having access to really trixy stuff like smuggling compartment- and again a really flexible set of slots and a good dial.

Also, Deci is by FAR the worst of the large ships against things like TLT because of the 0 AGI. And since TLT is everywhere, Deci is a big risk to put on the table.

I dont think Imps are dead yet, but they are definitely on the ropes. sometimes it feels like you need X7s with AT to win as imps in this meta

I've even had to shelve my poor soontir and I've been running him since i got in during wave 4

though i have to say that i've had a bit of luck using lt colzet and /Ds to crit enemies to death, they feel like they have more firepower then they roll

38 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

I quoted you right in my post...

Oh never mind.

Nope, you quoted Lobokai...

On 2017-04-04 at 0:39 AM, Lobokai said:

...or with an Imperial ship you also have to plan 2 moves ahead because you don't have 4 shields that regenerate, astromechs that rebuild your ship, turrets that fire 4 times a turn, a SLAM drive (don't talk to me about moving all over the board) or 16 frell'n hit points on just one of your three ships on the table... like the Rebels do.

Don't try to paint access to more backstabbing green dice as easy button mode... we certainly aren't blessed with Kanan/Biggs/M9 or Miranda/Bombs/Sabine synergy... our little guys work hard for their money

I've gotta side with those who say the Imps still have game.

For example, a few months ago, I tossed together the below list, which I nicknamed "Silly Ordnance" as it was intended to be a lightweight, casual list to play with less-experienced friends.

3x Tempest Squadron Pilot
--TIE/x1
--Accuracy Corrector
--Proton Rockets
--Guidance Chips

"Deathfire"
--Homing Missiles
--Conner Net
--Extra Muntions
--Guidance Chips

By freak chance it has turned out to be the strongest list I've ever made, for any faction. At present it is 42-4, and has gone undefeated in 3 local events with 10-15 players each. And I'm a guy who is lucky to win 60% of his games under normal circumstances.

Anecdotal? Sure. But in my defense, I have gathered a decently large sample size, and given my moderate skill level the results are well beyond luck.

My point, such as it is, is that there are certainly things the Imperials can bring to the table. Maybe with a higher skill floor, maybe with higher variance, and almost certainly with weird and unexpected combos, but they are there. The relative ease of use we experienced with Defenders and Palpatine and RAC did indeed make us lazy for a while.