13 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Good points and I think it's ridiculous that someone would think one factions players are just less creative.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

You were doing okay until here. You didn't respond to the other reason why you didn't see a lot of Imperial diversity that I mentioned.

Your tone also implies that Imps alone are creatively bankrupt, and yet two of the same Rebel list won two of the recent system opens, flown by two different people. And how many Parattanni lists ran around in it's hay day? Lazy list flying is a universal condition in X-Wing. If you are really trying to be helpful, don't point to that as an Imp only problem, but acknowledge that it is something every faction deals with.

ForceM has a serious hard-on for bashing Imps in every place possible on these forums. I think an Imp player once touched him in his bathing suit area.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

You were doing okay until here. You didn't respond to the other reason why you didn't see a lot of Imperial diversity that I mentioned.

Your tone also implies that Imps alone are creatively bankrupt, and yet two of the same Rebel list won two of the recent system opens, flown by two different people. And how many Parattanni lists ran around in it's hay day? Lazy list flying is a universal condition in X-Wing. If you are really trying to be helpful, don't point to that as an Imp only problem, but acknowledge that it is something every faction deals with.

No I really mean this, Rebels had a very rough phase after J5K came out and there was indeed a lot of experimenting with lists because they just had to look everywhere and find and try every sick combo there is in the faction. And this was indeed done. Look for instance at bombing K-Wings with Sabine and Kanan/Biggs. Especially the Bombers were not even considered to be a serious meta contender until months after the combo became available. Kanan was around a bit earlier, but there was a lot of tinkering with the list until everything fell into place.

The same thing happened with Scum and Mindlink. A lot of the cards and ships were there, but it is for a pretty long time that people experimented with it until it was the monster that Parrattani finaly became. Same thing goes for Manaroo, who wasn't even played a lot in tthe first few months the J5K came out.

I would really say that it's not only pragmatism, but sheer "look no further than Palpy" laziness for Empire players,well i guess because they could. Because during all that time, all that happened in Imperial lists was... well switching one ace for another and in the end for Defenders. That's not really scraping the bottom of creativity. But i have faith in them, because now they (we... because i would also like to play imps on tournaments in the future again) have to really switch it up, if it turns as you say and Palpy is not competitive anymore...

4 minutes ago, ForceM said:

No I really mean this, Rebels had a very rough phase after J5K came out and there was indeed a lot of experimenting with lists because they just had to look everywhere and find and try every sick combo there is in the faction. And this was indeed done. Look for instance at bombing K-Wings with Sabine and Kanan/Biggs. Especially the Bombers were not even considered to be a serious meta contender until months after the combo became available. Kanan was around a bit earlier, but there was a lot of tinkering with the list until everything fell into place.

The same thing happened with Scum and Mindlink. A lot of the cards and ships were there, but it is for a pretty long time that people experimented with it until it was the monster that Parrattani finaly became. Same thing goes for Manaroo, who wasn't even played a lot in tthe first few months the J5K came out.

I would really say that it's not only pragmatism, but sheer "look no further than Palpy" laziness for Empire players,well i guess because they could. Because during all that time, all that happened in Imperial lists was... well switching one ace for another and in the end for Defenders. That's not really scraping the bottom of creativity. But i have faith in them, because now they (we... because i would also like to play imps on tournaments in the future again) have to really switch it up, if it turns as you say and Palpy is not competitive anymore...

Still missing the point.

2 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

ForceM has a serious hard-on for bashing Imps in every place possible on these forums. I think an Imp player once touched him in his bathing suit area.

As already stated, i play imps a lot myself, but on this forum, every second thread by one of them is either complete trash or envious whining.

5 minutes ago, ForceM said:

As already stated, i play imps a lot myself, but on this forum, every second thread by one of them is either complete trash or envious whining.

Again, not limited to Imperials.

20 minutes ago, ForceM said:

No I really mean this, Rebels had a very rough phase after J5K came out and there was indeed a lot of experimenting with lists because they just had to look everywhere and find and try every sick combo there is in the faction. And this was indeed done. Look for instance at bombing K-Wings with Sabine and Kanan/Biggs. Especially the Bombers were not even considered to be a serious meta contender until months after the combo became available. Kanan was around a bit earlier, but there was a lot of tinkering with the list until everything fell into place.

The same thing happened with Scum and Mindlink. A lot of the cards and ships were there, but it is for a pretty long time that people experimented with it until it was the monster that Parrattani finaly became. Same thing goes for Manaroo, who wasn't even played a lot in tthe first few months the J5K came out.

I would really say that it's not only pragmatism, but sheer "look no further than Palpy" laziness for Empire players,well i guess because they could. Because during all that time, all that happened in Imperial lists was... well switching one ace for another and in the end for Defenders. That's not really scraping the bottom of creativity. But i have faith in them, because now they (we... because i would also like to play imps on tournaments in the future again) have to really switch it up, if it turns as you say and Palpy is not competitive anymore...

Truth, brother.

Whenever you steal a TIE Fighter play Imperials, you're like:

You literally have so much manoeuvrability when flying most Imp ships it's crazy. With Rebels, you can be creative with your lists, but with your movement you have to work a lot harder and plan two moves ahead - otherwise you wind up disappointed.

On 3/31/2017 at 5:00 PM, SabineKey said:

While I agree that both Palp and x7 have potential to still be viable, there is nothing "slightly" about their nerfs. X7's are now vulnerable to two major game play components, one of which (stress control) is already regaining traction. And Palp now feels and works entirely differently as he no longer provides a "safety net", as it were.

I also would like to point out that while the psychological bandwagoning is a factor in all X-Wing, but you are discounting the prevalence of auto damage that made some of the Empire's old favorites not have a favorable cost/benefit ratio. This is straight from three of my friends who are Imperial players.

You mean this Sabine? I overlooked that.

In my book, It's a good thing that x7s can't just ignore base mechanics of the game anymore like bumping and stress. These things are very rare in X-Wing, and mostly where they exist, they don't get to the same power level as an X7 so are irrelevant. On top of that, if you outplay your opponent, X7 is the same as before.

Palpy will still get you a net benefit on most turns. So a slight nerf is the correct term. The question is if he is still good enough to stay top competitive. Well he might very well be. Time will tell, and we didn't have enough time yet to know.

Auto damage is also a very limited factor, either difficult to pull off like Bombs or autoblasters, or limited to damage for a certain price you pay, like Feedback array. Or both, like slicer tools. It actually rewards good play or counterplay too. In other words Soontir is not dead, he just has to be even more careful, and has bad matchups.

7 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Again, not limited to Imperials.

I saw much less Rebel whine threads when they were really completely out of the meta until Deadeye was nerfed. This is a personal impression i'll admit that, but i just can't help but hate this attitude of "My favorite toy is broken, so i will whine until they break everyone elses too."

I don't particularly like the nerfs that happened myself, but i understand FFGs reasoning behind them.

And if i see a Rebel or scum whiner and think he is really wrong, i will not remain silent, take my word for it.

5 minutes ago, ForceM said:

You mean this Sabine? I overlooked that.

In my book, It's a good thing that x7s can't just ignore base mechanics of the game anymore like bumping and stress. These things are very rare in X-Wing, and mostly where they exist, they don't get to the same power level as an X7 so are irrelevant. On top of that, if you outplay your opponent, X7 is the same as before.

Palpy will still get you a net benefit on most turns. So a slight nerf is the correct term. The question is if he is still good enough to stay top competitive. Well he might very well be. Time will tell, and we didn't have enough time yet to know.

Auto damage is also a very limited factor, either difficult to pull off like Bombs or autoblasters, or limited to damage for a certain price you pay, like Feedback array. Or both, like slicer tools. It actually rewards good play or counterplay too. In other words Soontir is not dead, he just has to be even more careful, and has bad matchups.

There we go.

Your x7 point: Only strengthens my point about how it was not "slightly" nerfed.

Palp point: Disagree. It took away what actually made Palp valuable, his versatility. His power lay in being able to pick and choose when he was going alter the die. I'm not saying he was nerfed into oblivion. As you said, too early to tell. But it is not slight and might prove to be more, depending on what the future holds.

Your final point: You are not looking at this from a cost/benefit ratio. Yes, Fel can still be flown and potentially can still win matches. But his counters are now so prevalent, that the cost of flying him outweighs the benefit. Several people have already said this in this thread. Again, I have friends who play Imperials and they prefer how the interceptor flys over the other options, but don't do it much because they know what's out there can smoke their 3 health ship unless they fly perfectly. And nobody is that good without a lot of luck.

5 minutes ago, ForceM said:

I saw much less Rebel whine threads when they were really completely out of the meta until Deadeye was nerfed. This is a personal impression i'll admit that, but i just can't help but hate this attitude of "My favorite toy is broken, so i will whine until they break everyone elses too."

I don't particularly like the nerfs that happened myself, but i understand FFGs reasoning behind them.

And if i see a Rebel or scum whiner and think he is really wrong, i will not remain silent, take my word for it.

Again, we must be seeing different threads. I've seen the exact same sentiments from Rebel players too. I'm not saying Imperial players are all saints, but neither are Rebels or Scum. We all got biases and pet peeves.

I do have to say that the ability to shoot a turret and hit a target at different angles should be considerably harder due to the changing relative speeds.

Use to consider this was factored in by the distance and low damage (except MF)

As this does not appear to be the model anymore, should defenders get an additional die when out of arc?

Not whining or crying, just always bugged me.... Just those pesky math problems.

As a player who plays all factions my take is this (I'm about to paint with some broad generalized brush strokes):

Competitive Imp players tend to be a risk averse group. I think this is a product of having move last arc dodging aces like Fel, Vader and Whisper as well as being able to rely on Pre-nerf Palp to erase any mistakes. So when the great nerfing happened competitive players want to win so they go with what they know is top tier (and safe) even if it means leaving their beloved Imperials for a time. For me the low totals of top 8s lately is due more to less Imp lists being played by top tier players not the same amount as before simply underperforming.

My 2 cents on the whining is that players who play primarily Imps do tend to whine a bit more. Maybe this is because they're so used to being top dogs with top aces?

2 minutes ago, charlesanakin said:

For me the low totals of top 8s lately is due more to less Imp lists being played by top tier players not the same amount as before simply underperforming.

Except that this is patently false. There were just as many Imp lists in the last 3 opens as the 3 before the FAQ. It's not that there's fewer Imp players, it's that none of the Imp lists made it through the grind of the tournaments to end up in the top 24s. 3 lists out of 72 (top 24 in the 3 post FAQ Opens) were Imps. 3/72 = 4.1%. Chalk that up to Palp and X7 not being able to carry lists through the OP shite scum (undercosted Toilet Seats) and rebels (Sabine and Miranda) have access to now.

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

There we go.

Your x7 point: Only strengthens my point about how it was not "slightly" nerfed.

Palp point: Disagree. It took away what actually made Palp valuable, his versatility. His power lay in being able to pick and choose when he was going alter the die. I'm not saying he was nerfed into oblivion. As you said, too early to tell. But it is not slight and might prove to be more, depending on what the future holds.

Your final point: You are not looking at this from a cost/benefit ratio. Yes, Fel can still be flown and potentially can still win matches. But his counters are now so prevalent, that the cost of flying him outweighs the benefit. Several people have already said this in this thread. Again, I have friends who play Imperials and they prefer how the interceptor flys over the other options, but don't do it much because they know what's out there can smoke their 3 health ship unless they fly perfectly. And nobody is that good without a lot of luck.

The X7 nerf... well idk, when i play them i run into 1-2 situations more per match where i won't get an evade. And only when my opponent perfectly sets me up for it, will he benefit from it. So let's say i take one damage more per game from that. I think of that as a slight nerf. I still love the Defender and the title and consider it as perfectly capable of winning tournaments.

Considering the auto-damage discussion. All the combo pieces were in place for Bombs especially for a long time. And the other stuff was there even earlier except for slicer tools. Did that stop the purebreed aces from being used? Not at all. But you are right that his "counters are now more prevalent"

I remember playing a bomb laden Miranda in a small tournament where i expected only imps and no U-Boats. I put every Palpmobile list into a bag i saw. And they wondered, because they were not used to it a year ago.

What i want to say is that Bombers have a very very hard time against Alpha-strikes, and when these lists made up the meta, Nobody flew them, so high agility aces were free to fly. Now this has changed a bit and Aces face many more Autodamage lists. They get countered now! That's also why Imps started to shift to Defenders which mitigate damage more instead of avoiding it. These are all meta-phenomena. But Soontir-Type aces are still superb in nearly every other matchup.

It's just more of a Rock Paper Scissors thing going on than before. And winning tournaments depends more than ever on reading the meta correctly. If you guess right what you will face, you will prevail.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

The X7 nerf... well idk, when i play them i run into 1-2 situations more per match where i won't get an evade. And only when my opponent perfectly sets me up for it, will he benefit from it. So let's say i take one damage more per game from that. I think of that as a slight nerf. I still love the Defender and the title and consider it as perfectly capable of winning tournaments.

Considering the auto-damage discussion. All the combo pieces were in place for Bombs especially for a long time. And the other stuff was there even earlier except for slicer tools. Did that stop the purebreed aces from being used? Not at all. But you are right that his "counters are now more prevalent"

I remember playing a bomb laden Miranda in a small tournament where i expected only imps and no U-Boats. I put every Palpmobile list into a bag i saw. And they wondered, because they were not used to it a year ago.

What i want to say is that Bombers have a very very hard time against Alpha-strikes, and when these lists made up the meta, Nobody flew them, so high agility aces were free to fly. Now this has changed a bit and Aces face many more Autodamage lists. They get countered now! That's also why Imps started to shift to Defenders which mitigate damage more instead of avoiding it. These are all meta-phenomena. But Soontir-Type aces are still superb in nearly every other matchup.

It's just more of a Rock Paper Scissors thing going on than before. And winning tournaments depends more than ever on reading the meta correctly. If you guess right what you will face, you will prevail.

On the x7 subject, this was never about whether the nerf was right (whole different subject) or if the Defender was useable afterwards. It was about the concept of thinking it as a "slight" nerf. It went from a conditional guarantee of an evade to even more conditional. Stress control is on the rise again, which shuts x7 down. Again, not about the right or wrong of the nerf. It is about the misconception that it was slight.

you are absolutely right that all the pieces for Imp Aces downfall was there for a while. People just hadn't put it together right away. Still doesn't change the result. Nor do your theoretical arguments change testimony I have heard from dedicated Imperial flyers about the cost benefit ratio of ships like the Interceptor. Imperial Aces have been the boogieman for a long time. There is a store near me who's X-Wing community is almost entirely Rebel players, but build their lists to kill Imp Aces, even though that's not what the normally face.

My Imperial friends are reading the meta. And it's not Imperial Ace friendly.

5 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

Except that this is patently false. There were just as many Imp lists in the last 3 opens as the 3 before the FAQ. It's not that there's fewer Imp players, it's that none of the Imp lists made it through the grind of the tournaments to end up in the top 24s. 3 lists out of 72 (top 24 in the 3 post FAQ Opens) were Imps. 3/72 = 4.1%. Chalk that up to Palp and X7 not being able to carry lists through the OP shite scum (undercosted Toilet Seats) and rebels (Sabine and Miranda) have access to now.

Maybe read then, I didn't less Imp players I said less top players playing Imps. So if you have some data which shows which factions top players played that contradicts what I've said then I'm all ears.

8 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

Maybe read then, I didn't less Imp players I said less top players playing Imps. So if you have some data which shows which factions top players played that contradicts what I've said then I'm all ears.

But surely there's a reason for that, right? As in, top players are evaluating them as less competitive.

14 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

Competitive Imp players tend to be a risk averse group.

I find that this is true of most competitive players. Top cuts are often made up of the most risk adverse lists of all three factions and not just Imperials.

----

As a side note: at a rather large casual tourney in my area this weekend, 30 players attended and there were just three Imperials lists. Nothing at stake, though some use it as World's prep, so it's perfect for experimenting either way, still people just aren't even bothering.

I'm not suggesting that Imps have tons of top tier lists. But their top players don't want to take time to try and test them out with Worlds approaching in May. Not enough time (or at least that perception) is why. They don't feel they have the time to evaluate them. It's interesting though because Rebel and Scum (non triple Jumps) have been doing this forever. Both Dengaroo and Parattanni are examples of digging deep and finding gold in that list building process. I think many top Imp players may not have that skill yet? Now they'll learn.

I'm suggesting that they are finally experiencing what Rebel and Scum players have experienced for wave after wave until Jumpmasters. It's really the first time Imps have been in 3rd place. And they arent taking it well.

24 minutes ago, charlesanakin said:

I'm not suggesting that Imps have tons of top tier lists. But their top players don't want to take time to try and test them out with Worlds approaching in May. Not enough time (or at least that perception) is why. They don't feel they have the time to evaluate them. It's interesting though because Rebel and Scum (non triple Jumps) have been doing this forever. Both Dengaroo and Parattanni are examples of digging deep and finding gold in that list building process. I think many top Imp players may not have that skill yet? Now they'll learn.

I'm suggesting that they are finally experiencing what Rebel and Scum players have experienced for wave after wave until Jumpmasters. It's really the first time Imps have been in 3rd place. And they arent taking it well.

And yet Rebels kept winning Worlds. The most recent was Scum. Empire haven't won it since 2012. Also, I seem to remember similar cries and lamentations from Rebels during the reign of the original U-Boats. No one takes it well when their preferred faction isn't doing well.

17 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

Except that this is patently false. There were just as many Imp lists in the last 3 opens as the 3 before the FAQ. It's not that there's fewer Imp players, it's that none of the Imp lists made it through the grind of the tournaments to end up in the top 24s. 3 lists out of 72 (top 24 in the 3 post FAQ Opens) were Imps. 3/72 = 4.1%. Chalk that up to Palp and X7 not being able to carry lists through the OP shite scum (undercosted Toilet Seats) and rebels (Sabine and Miranda) have access to now.

This.

Imps (save pre-nerf Defenders and Palp assisted squads), are predicated to be very maneuverable, good hitting glass-cannons. The meta post- nerf has no allowance for a player to fly over and over through massive HP, Attani, TLTs, Sabine, SLAM, Biggs and Regen. Scum and Rebels are just really good toolboxed up squads right now that have ways to weather bad dice and movements. It makes since that tourneys are going S and R at the cut and finals, it's the way the game is currently flowing, it's by design I think. I haven't a problem really, I'm going to learn to SLAM and TLT like everybody else ???

1 hour ago, charlesanakin said:

I'm suggesting that they are finally experiencing what Rebel and Scum players have experienced for wave after wave until Jumpmasters. It's really the first time Imps have been in 3rd place. And they arent taking it well.

This is, of course, just a narrative that profiles Imperial players as a certain type of player that I don't think is true.

In addition, I've pointed out why it's just simply concretely tougher to come up with creative lists that isn't currently the case for Rebels or Scum (though Scum did have that until they had a couple of waves). I'm not saying they're not there, but they're reasons it is far more challenging that have nothing to do with Imperial or even Xwing players as a whole.

1 hour ago, charlesanakin said:

I'm not suggesting that Imps have tons of top tier lists. But their top players don't want to take time to try and test them out with Worlds approaching in May. Not enough time (or at least that perception) is why. They don't feel they have the time to evaluate them. It's interesting though because Rebel and Scum (non triple Jumps) have been doing this forever. Both Dengaroo and Parattanni are examples of digging deep and finding gold in that list building process. I think many top Imp players may not have that skill yet? Now they'll learn.

I'm suggesting that they are finally experiencing what Rebel and Scum players have experienced for wave after wave until Jumpmasters. It's really the first time Imps have been in 3rd place. And they arent taking it well.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

And yet Rebels kept winning Worlds. The most recent was Scum. Empire haven't won it since 2012. Also, I seem to remember similar cries and lamentations from Rebels during the reign of the original U-Boats. No one takes it well when their preferred faction isn't doing well.

Here, to clarify something I feel I misrepresented in my last post. I'm not trying to paint a picture of the Empire as this poor downtrodden faction who never won anything and deserves more than the other factions. I am trying to disprove what I feel is a sentiment going around that Imperial Players are spoiled brats that are whining because they have to take their lumps. Everyone has whined and complained when their preferred play style has fallen out of meta, and some on all sides take it too far.

You are right. This nerf is forcing Imperials in a new direction and that's not a bad thing. Necessity is the mother of invention. But there seems to be this assumption that Imperial players hadn't been experimenting because they had x7 and Palp, which in my experience is false. My friends have experimented and tested many things before the nerf and continue to do so afterward. Some of it looks to have a lot of promise. But, it's still not proven at the upper level yet, or have counters that are too prevalent in the current meta. And that's what this is all about. Some of us are worried because of recent tournament results. I do think there is some "the sky is falling" reactions going on, but that doesn't disqualify the concern.

On 29/3/2017 at 2:59 PM, ForceM said:

Just to prove my point...

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (46)
Trick Shot (0)
Kylo Ren (3)
Mercenary Copilot (2)
Rebel Captive (3)

Total: 54

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This here should really be a nightmare for Miranda to deal with for the same 54 points. Make her not shoot/regen twice more, set her PS to 0 and then put her in a bag. If she shoots you, she gets stressed and is severely limited in her movement if she wants to bomb.

For 60 you could have EU and switch the merc for Ysanne maybe. Dauntless Title is also an option, or a better EPT. But even at 54, it's quite potent, and not only against Miranda at that!

How do you make a competitive build out of that ? Pretty sure kylo + gunner + darth vader + predator + EU + title would be much better. I don't know why you are forcing yourself to put something worth the same points, when people should be argueing about list archtypes rather than ships on a vaccuum.

8 hours ago, DreadStar said:

How do you make a competitive build out of that ? Pretty sure kylo + gunner + darth vader + predator + EU + title would be much better. I don't know why you are forcing yourself to put something worth the same points, when people should be argueing about list archtypes rather than ships on a vaccuum.

As i said back in the post, there are a lot of options on how to build this ship between 54 and 60 points. Vader really is pretty redundant because it won't be that difficult to get a crit through against most ships, but gunner and Engine upgrade are obviously great.

I have always found Vader difficult to justify on expensive ships. Most of the time he hurts you more than he does good. He is fine on a naked shuttle or maybe patrol leader...

And then you have 40-46 points to spend depending on which build you take. Predator is nice but not a necessity. From Veteran instincts

Listen i was asked if a Decimator could beat Miranda. This one can! And it is a pretty competitive build on top of that. Fly it with a big Ace or with a swarm of smaller ships as you like.

That's besides the point, which is making a ship that can beat X ship in a vacuum is pointless. And it is not competitive at all. You can't just make a pointless build and then tell people to slap some aces and that's a perfectly valid competitive build. It's not. I mean really you have to be excessively confident to had been telling imperial players that they just don't know how to deal with K-wings and they need to get better and more creative, and then post that abomination.

Vader isn't there for you to use always, it's there to guarantee damage and as an excellent finisher. It really puts aces in their nerves on a turret, specially the ones withouth shields but mostly that's why you take it, not to use it every turn, but as finisher or against autothruster's aces, but yeah, you can change it for rebel captive if you want, but no, don't remove predator. Is it top on the competition ? no, the decimator isn't there for starters, while the K-wing sure is.