5 hours ago, ForceM said:

The FAQ is official for 12 days. Not even 2 Weeks. 3 Tournaments.

This is not even a sample size that is worth discussing in reality.

Imperial Players had no time to adapt, no time to even look for alternatives to Palpy, and it's not even said that the nerf to Palpy is even significant enough to get him away from the top tables.

As i see it, imperial players were insecure about it, and preferred to not run any risks. So nobody played him. It is however premature to write him off.

This will be my last reply to you. Not sure i should even answer but like i said, i'm upset :-)

It's funny how some players say hes not changed and yet we need time to "adapt"? If he's still so powerful why are top players abandoning him or not performing with him? We're talking about players that know what they are doing, not newbies.

You are probably not aware of that but top players knew about the change before the FAQ was published and had months to play with him. Also the rest of us have been aware of the changes since march 6th, thats more than 2 weeks.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

Back to Miranda. You talk about a Homing missile shooting, Bomb laying Miranda with EM, Sabine and Advanced SLAM plus TLT.

So this build here. Not my invention. Just what was said here and complained about:

Miranda Doni (29)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Sabine Wren (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Conner Net (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Total: 54

That is 54 points. Or A full imp ace and most of Omega leader.

Is this better than a 60 points Decimator? It really depends on how you build the Deci But you can run for example a Kylo version that puts Miranda in a bag for 60 points basically. The statement that she is plain better is just not true.

Decimators are nowhere to be found in top positions. I dont remember the last time one ever won a major event. The way she is built allows her to have Biggs (to keep that decimatro from putting her in a bag) and a stressbot (just to make sure to put the nails on the coffin). And yeah, at 60 points it's RAC with Kylo. Like most imperial ships there isnt many way to built it if you want to compete.

Also i'm describing what Miranda CAN do, she doesnt have to do all of this to be effective. Just with bombs and TLT she's a monster. It's not just Miranda, triple kwing are nasty and doing well. I think the only ship keeping them from dominating at the moment is the Jumpmaster.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

The best thing is however is this ridiculous template where you try and show how overpowered she is with a bomb.

So she has to pick a first maneuver and therefore a speed for SLAM first, which limits her already. So she can, unlike this tries to suggest not just put it into all these locations by just reacting to your maneuver. Lets also note that in every case where she SLAMs, she can't shoot, so no further damage except the Bomb and no regen that turn.

At speed 1 she has 4 positions to drop the bomb.

At speed 2 there are 6.

At speed 3 there are 4.

So, in short. She still very much needs to outguess you if she wants to bomb you. She can adjust for the price of no further actions or shots, but it's still the maneuvering game she plays and you can outfly her.

You clearly dont understand the picture. If Miranda can move before a ship, the only places it can attack her without getting a bomb the next turm are where you dont see the Corner token. If you are at any place where a token is at the beginning of the activation phase, she will bomb you. It's worst with cluster mines because the tokens occupy even more place.. Again look at matches on Youtube or play against a good player. It's easy to place bombs with k-wings. It's even easier with generic pilots because they almost always move 1st. Look at the picture and multiply that by 3. You'll realize that if your opponent is half decent, you will eat some bombs no matter what you do. Ok for a lot of ships but almost instant death for most Imperial aces.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

And in that case, you take 2 damage (with Sabine) with the Conner net... so she needs to do it again no matter what ship you fly. If She manages to do that, under fire and accepting the fact that your other ships could focus her down during that time, well... you probably deserve to lose!

She would not try to kill an ace with a corner if she still has some cluster mines available. My ships cant focus on her as long as Biggs is alive. Thats more than likely at least one or 2 rounds where she's free to do her thing safely.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

It is also noteworthy that Eamon Azzameen and Deathrain have at least/nearly as many possible Bomb positions as Miranda. Snd you don't make a fuss about them.

Are you really saying a Punisher can bomb as easily as a k-wing (yeah even Deathrain). Please, it's not even worth answering.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

Again. Miranda is a very good ship and a top choice in her price and weight class. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Rebels need to have, and do have these choices, just as the other 2 Factions

Youll be surprised but i agree with you. I've never said that she or any other ships should be changed. My post has never been about that. I'm upset Imperials lost their only 2 decent options to be competitive. We were never dominating before the FAQ, the Scums were. Post FAQ the reason there was only defenders or Palps played was because nothing else was viable. The results after the FAQ only prove my point. I'd like to be wrong and have an Imperial squad win just ONE open. It wont happen but if by some miracle it does, i swear to come back here and say i was wrong.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

Empire has arguably more of these top (ace) choices to choose from. Omega leader, Inquisitor, Ryad, Vessery, Soontir, RAC and so on... They are all top choices in their respective roles, and this is totally fine that way. Scum of course also have their fair share.

Euuu, you name 6 pilots but only 3 of them are aces. 50%, not bad... You do know what an ace is, dont you? Top choices that are not in the top spots?? Dont know where that logic is coming from, but it's "mysterious" :-) Just like that amazing Imperial domination you are talking about. Where are you taking that ??? Show me...

17 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

We get it, Force, you hate Imperial players. You seem perfectly happy that Imps are completely gone from competitive play represented by HUNDREDS OF GAMES AND PLAYERS (not a small sample size) in the last 3 opens. You hate us, hate our presence in the game, and are glad we're gone from competitive. Awesome. Thanks for your input.

No that's also wrong, i don't hate imperial players. At all. I AM an imperial player on like... 70% of the tournaments i play.

I DO however hate the kind of 100% Empire forum guys that just can't take it that Imps and Scum got nerfed and Rebels not. And that now out of pure envy try and point out that Rebels should not have Regen and turrets and Sabine and actually nothing that makes them distinct and competitive .

Let me point out again that personnally i don't even know if the nerfs were necessary.

But now wanting to prove that Rebels are OP is really silly. They never had the kind of mandatory power cards that Palpy and Manaroo were.

In the end maybe these nerfs really brought Rebels back from a prolonged absence from the top competitive scene. Good!

There is no doubt that before nerfs, Parattani and Palp Defenders were the meta overlords, and Rebels had nothing quite comparable in power level.

Regarding the tournaments, imps are not at all gone now. Even IF we consider these measly 3 opens they had diverse lists placing very well.

Imperials did however not have as many participants in these tournaments as Scum and Rebels afaik., the reason probably being insecurity if the lists were still viable.

I mean the FAQ dropped pretty close to the tournaments. Rule changes came in power a mere few days before, so if i was a long time Palp Defender player and not sure if it still performs anymore i would also have done the same thing and played a different faction or an Imperial List i know will still do well. Like Triple Defenders for instance.

But would this mean i will not go back to testing Palpy and other Imp lists? Not at all.

Just give them some time. The meta was a bit chaotic now and needs to settle, and then all factions will need to reevaluate their truly competitive lists. And only then can we say what are the top lists. I would not be surprised if we see some of them turn out to be imperial, in two or three months, (i mean if the sky has not yet fallen by then XD)

18 hours ago, ForceM said:

The FAQ is official for 12 days. Not even 2 Weeks. 3 Tournaments.

This is not even a sample size that is worth discussing in reality.

Imperial Players had no time to adapt, no time to even look for alternatives to Palpy, and it's not even said that the nerf to Palpy is even significant enough to get him away from the top tables.

As i see it, imperial players were insecure about it, and preferred to not run any risks. So nobody played him. It is however premature to write him off.

Back to Miranda. You talk about a Homing missile shooting, Bomb laying Miranda with EM, Sabine and Advanced SLAM plus TLT.

So this build here. Not my invention. Just what was said here and complained about:

Miranda Doni (29)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Sabine Wren (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Conner Net (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Total: 54

That is 54 points. Or A full imp ace and most of Omega leader.

Is this better than a 60 points Decimator? It really depends on how you build the Deci But you can run for example a Kylo version that puts Miranda in a bag for 60 points basically. The statement that she is plain better is just not true.

The best thing is however is this ridiculous template where you try and show how overpowered she is with a bomb.

So she has to pick a first maneuver and therefore a speed for SLAM first, which limits her already. So she can, unlike this tries to suggest not just put it into all these locations by just reacting to your maneuver. Lets also note that in every case where she SLAMs, she can't shoot, so no further damage except the Bomb and no regen that turn.

At speed 1 she has 4 positions to drop the bomb.

At speed 2 there are 6.

At speed 3 there are 4.

So, in short. She still very much needs to outguess you if she wants to bomb you. She can adjust for the price of no further actions or shots, but it's still the maneuvering game she plays and you can outfly her.

And in that case, you take 2 damage (with Sabine) with the Conner net... so she needs to do it again no matter what ship you fly. If She manages to do that, under fire and accepting the fact that your other ships could focus her down during that time, well... you probably deserve to lose!

It is also noteworthy that Eamon Azzameen and Deathrain have at least/nearly as many possible Bomb positions as Miranda. Snd you don't make a fuss about them.

Again. Miranda is a very good ship and a top choice in her price and weight class. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Rebels need to have, and do have these choices, just as the other 2 Factions

Empire has arguably more of these top (ace) choices to choose from. Omega leader, Inquisitor, Ryad, Vessery, Soontir, RAC and so on... They are all top choices in their respective roles, and this is totally fine that way. Scum of course also have their fair share.

So why this whining, i don't get this. You are just proving my point by now. That imperials are always whining and that the sky is always falling unless they are totally steamrolling the meta. And that they are above all envious to everything Rebels have that makes them distinct and good! Ignoring their own strenghts and that they just have to use different tools than Rebels to win.

This really stays mysterious behaviour to me...

You have no idea what you're talking about... a K-Wing at speed 2 having 6 potential positions to drop the bomb? lol, 5 maneuvers and if these don't put her in a good spot, there are 5 SLAM possibilities for each of the 5. She's moving before the ace so there's no guesswork involved - she knows exactly where you are.

Also, she does not need to shoot - after a conner you are down 2 HP, actionless and ioned. Either the other ships in your list will kill the tokenless ace, or she will next turn. He will not have her in arc anyway. That's assuming, of course, you did not eat a cluster mine and are still on the table.

I believe the thing that gets most imperial players right now is that they don't have an all comers list with no really bad matchup anymore now that bombs are a thing. Sure, you don't feel comfortable going into a tournament knowing that against some lists you will have an uphill fight. Thing is, that is how it has been for rebels for the longest time now. They have the choice of being shut down by either Attanni-efficiency (formerly U-Boats) or arc-dodgers. The empire has the choice of being shutdown by Attanni-efficiency (although Defender named pilots can go toe-to-toe with that still) or by mines. These two factions stand on pretty equal footing and that is good.

Now Scum still has Mindlink being pretty strong. It doesn't have any glaring weaknesses and operates on a high powerlevel. Sabine lets bomb lists get away with a bit too much, too. Mindlink is the only real all-comer archetype, now.

But playing competetively I have no issue playing imperials. I have been more successful in the VASSAL league with them than with any other faction and in most of my lists only one or two ships have been hit by the nerfs, who wouldn't have mattered in any game I can recall.

Any new of the empire being dead are grossly exaggerated.

3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I believe the thing that gets most imperial players right now is that they don't have an all comers list with no really bad matchup anymore now that bombs are a thing. Sure, you don't feel comfortable going into a tournament knowing that against some lists you will have an uphill fight. Thing is, that is how it has been for rebels for the longest time now. They have the choice of being shut down by either Attanni-efficiency (formerly U-Boats) or arc-dodgers. The empire has the choice of being shutdown by Attanni-efficiency (although Defender named pilots can go toe-to-toe with that still) or by mines. These two factions stand on pretty equal footing and that is good.

Now Scum still has Mindlink being pretty strong. It doesn't have any glaring weaknesses and operates on a high powerlevel. Sabine lets bomb lists get away with a bit too much, too. Mindlink is the only real all-comer archetype, now.

But playing competetively I have no issue playing imperials. I have been more successful in the VASSAL league with them than with any other faction and in most of my lists only one or two ships have been hit by the nerfs, who wouldn't have mattered in any game I can recall.

Any new of the empire being dead are grossly exaggerated.

This! Excellent post.

What is also noteworthy is that Rebels probably did suffer more because of U-Boats, Dengaroo, Parattani successively than against Empire.

Rebels have always been decent against Imp Aces. Regen gave them the tools to survive the relatively low damage output and Stress was always good against PTL. Now add Bombs to the mix.

The reason this went unnoticed is mainly because these lists were equally bad against the top Scum lists. And these pushed them heavily out of the meta.

Now that Parattani and Zuckuss are a bit weakened as well, we can see more of those Rebel squads coming back that do decently against Empire because there is a bit less and/or different Scum lists.

But at least J5k Scouts are still there and keep these Rebel lists in check, so they will not be dominating. Against 9 HP ships, Bombs are just not going to win you many games. And even Kanan lists have a very hard time against them as we could see in the open stream.

That being Said Triple Defender and Palpmobile lists plus Kylo Lists will probably make top tables very soon as the quality in imperial ships is still very high and Triple or Commonwealth Defenders are actually very good against triple Scout lists.

4 hours ago, costi said:

You have no idea what you're talking about... a K-Wing at speed 2 having 6 potential positions to drop the bomb? lol, 5 maneuvers and if these don't put her in a good spot, there are 5 SLAM possibilities for each of the 5. She's moving before the ace so there's no guesswork involved - she knows exactly where you are.

Also, she does not need to shoot - after a conner you are down 2 HP, actionless and ioned. Either the other ships in your list will kill the tokenless ace, or she will next turn. He will not have her in arc anyway. That's assuming, of course, you did not eat a cluster mine and are still on the table.

I have played the Matchup from both sides and it is very feasible to win vs Miranda and friends with both Aces and Defenders. It's not an autowin for any side by no means. Usually the better player will win. As it should be.

Regarding the Bomb drop. You have more possibilities than 6 on a 2 maneuver. But you need to plan the first of them, so after dialing you have 1 plus 5 slam locations. So 6 posdible reactions to opposing maneuvers. And on top of that, she is PS 8. She will not move before a majority of Imp aces except Soontir, Vader and anything you give PTL... the list is short. If they move before her it's an entirely different ball game.

The majority of imp lists already using Ryad, Vessery, and as Glass cannon aces Inquisitor or Omega. Neither of these have more than PS8, so if you fear her that much bid a few points and give her initiative.

This is really just pure whining at this point.

I am not saying this often but... well what else to say but git gud and outguess Doni, you have ALL the tools with these imp ships to be unpredictable. And if not, well. Lose like a gentleman!

2 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I believe the thing that gets most imperial players right now is that they don't have an all comers list with no really bad matchup anymore now that bombs are a thing. Sure, you don't feel comfortable going into a tournament knowing that against some lists you will have an uphill fight. Thing is, that is how it has been for rebels for the longest time now. They have the choice of being shut down by either Attanni-efficiency (formerly U-Boats) or arc-dodgers. The empire has the choice of being shutdown by Attanni-efficiency (although Defender named pilots can go toe-to-toe with that still) or by mines. These two factions stand on pretty equal footing and that is good.

Rebels were still in top positions. I remember an interview with FFG after last wolrd. They said rebels were at like 24% representation in top 32. That's far better than the 3 squads we had on the top 24 positions for the 3 last Opens. That's 4.16%. The problem is not just vs bombs. That one is probably the worst but there are many other probeblatic squads. During the same interview they said defender were stron but totally beatable. A top player was there and agreed with that statement. I think it was Paul Heaver because i remember they talked about the new card he designed.

My initial post wasnt about rebels or even scums. I dont mind at all if they have powerful options. What i'm saying is before the FAQ, Imperial were not dominating. I understand any game designer would not like it if the players of a faction only used 2-3 ships. From a business point of view it makes sense to want to sell different ships. I understand people who were tired of seing mostly Defenders and/or Palp when playing vs Imperials. When i play locally i almost never use them because it gets boring. "But" i liked to know i still had an effective option when i wanted to go to major events.

They could have attained their objective without frustrating so many players, that is my biggest gripe. De one small change at a time and see how it affects the meta before going overboard. For example make defenders sensitive to bumps and obstacle but keep them effective under stress (or vice/versa). Or start by changing Palp to "use the ability before reroll" but keep the flexibility. Just that would probably have been enough.

They could have also waited for Imperials to have other viable options before the nerf. I'm pretty sure that as soon as other competitive choices would have been available, most Imperial players would have naturally migrated away from triple Ds or Commonwealth.

Why do you think they are now giving Imperials access to turret upgrades? It's needed, no other reason. I got a feeling the next wave will have many tools to adress the Empire issues. The system upgrade from the scum xpac looks like a bombing tool that would benefit Imps since we have the most ships with that slot. Unguided rocket seems to be made for Bombers/Punishers. I've got a feeling Intensity is a tool to add an effect to dices changed by a focus tokens, a bit like fanatical devotion. Hux having just been releases would point to that direction.

If what i'm expecting turns out to be true, the last FAQ makes more sense. But why not wait after the xpac release to make the nerf and keep Imperial competitive in the meantime?

On a side note, i talked about Paul heaver new card earlier. Anyone find it weird that he doesnt bring it to competitions? If i had the chance to design an upgrade, i'm pretty sure i would play with it to show how good it can be...

You still haven't really adressed the nerf-effect: Players tend to step away from nerfed game pieces towards proven ones when they don't have time to evaluate them beforehands. The tournaments you mentioned happened very close to the nerfs, so this nerf-effect hit them full swing. It is very similar to when Ana was nerfed for the first time in Overwatch: Players would flame you for picking her the first few weeks, then everthing was back to normal and she was considered the only viable main healer again.

TIE Defenders will prove to be similar: Even without their x7 effect, the 2 point reduction is very valuable. So it doesn't really matter that they don't have the evade all the time. The nerf to them has been minor at best.

48 minutes ago, ForceM said:

This! Excellent post.

What is also noteworthy is that Rebels probably did suffer more because of U-Boats, Dengaroo, Parattani successively than against Empire.

Rebels have always been decent against Imp Aces. Regen gave them the tools to survive the relatively low damage output and Stress was always good against PTL. Now add Bombs to the mix.

The reason this went unnoticed is mainly because these lists were equally bad against the top Scum lists. And these pushed them heavily out of the meta.

Now that Parattani and Zuckuss are a bit weakened as well, we can see more of those Rebel squads coming back that do decently against Empire because there is a bit less and/or different Scum lists.

But at least J5k Scouts are still there and keep these Rebel lists in check, so they will not be dominating. Against 9 HP ships, Bombs are just not going to win you many games. And even Kanan lists have a very hard time against them as we could see in the open stream.

That being Said Triple Defender and Palpmobile lists plus Kylo Lists will probably make top tables very soon as the quality in imperial ships is still very high and Triple or Commonwealth Defenders are actually very good against triple Scout lists.

You do realize you are kinda supporting my point there, correct? You said basically "change scum and leave imperials as they were and you would have had a perfectly balanced meta instead of wiping out a faction almost completely"...

I'd like to make a non monetary bet about your last statement if your up for it :-) I predict no imperial squad will win an Open until the next wave is released. I also predict we'll see the same results as the last three Open until then.

19 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I predict no imperial squad will win an Open until the next wave is released. I also predict we'll see the same results as the last three Open until then.

That doesn't mean anything in either way.

As @Admiral Deathrain said: " You still haven't really adressed the nerf-effect: Players tend to step away from nerfed game pieces towards proven ones when they don't have time to evaluate them beforehands. "

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

That doesn't mean anything in either way.

As @Admiral Deathrain said: " You still haven't really adressed the nerf-effect: Players tend to step away from nerfed game pieces towards proven ones when they don't have time to evaluate them beforehands. "

I did...

20 hours ago, Thormind said:

It's funny how some players say hes not changed and yet we need time to "adapt"? If he's still so powerful why are top players abandoning him or not performing with him? We're talking about players that know what they are doing, not newbies.

You are probably not aware of that but top players knew about the change before the FAQ was published and had months to play with him. Also the rest of us have been aware of the changes since march 6th, thats more than 2 weeks.

Lets say im a top player (even if i'm not). I know Palp and X7 are still really good because i playtested the changes. I also know the meta might think they are not good so they wont be prepared to see them played. What do i do? I bring them to a major event. This is even more likely to happen in the next few Opens because the Imperials underperformed during the last 3 ones. That is if im wrong... We'll see if i am

I might have been playing this game for only 1 year but i've been playing TCG since i was a kid (im 37). I know how metagames work.

This game is not so different than a TCG (meta-wise) There are skilled players who are part of teams and keep testing builds to "pierce" the meta. You really think none of those teams tested X7/Palp to see if they could make a surprise hit?

There are not many ways to play defenders or Palp. We're not talking about flexible options here. Defenders are predictable by design and Palp is so expensive that he requires a specific setup in a 100pts game.

6 hours ago, ForceM said:

I have played the Matchup from both sides and it is very feasible to win vs Miranda and friends with both Aces and Defenders. It's not an autowin for any side by no means. Usually the better player will win. As it should be.

Regarding the Bomb drop. You have more possibilities than 6 on a 2 maneuver. But you need to plan the first of them, so after dialing you have 1 plus 5 slam locations. So 6 posdible reactions to opposing maneuvers. And on top of that, she is PS 8. She will not move before a majority of Imp aces except Soontir, Vader and anything you give PTL... the list is short. If they move before her it's an entirely different ball game.

The majority of imp lists already using Ryad, Vessery, and as Glass cannon aces Inquisitor or Omega. Neither of these have more than PS8, so if you fear her that much bid a few points and give her initiative.

This is really just pure whining at this point.

I am not saying this often but... well what else to say but git gud and outguess Doni, you have ALL the tools with these imp ships to be unpredictable. And if not, well. Lose like a gentleman!

Replace Miranda with Warden and you're set.

I've also played against these, against a very good player (made top8 on Tatooine) and it's an uphill stuggle for aces. I'm not saying it's unwinnable, but it's probably the worst matchup they have and strongly in favour of the K-Wings.

6 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

You still haven't really adressed the nerf-effect: Players tend to step away from nerfed game pieces towards proven ones when they don't have time to evaluate them beforehands. The tournaments you mentioned happened very close to the nerfs, so this nerf-effect hit them full swing. It is very similar to when Ana was nerfed for the first time in Overwatch: Players would flame you for picking her the first few weeks, then everthing was back to normal and she was considered the only viable main healer again.

If this were true, though, then the scum nerf should have had similar effects and we should have seen rebel builds exclusively by that logic, but there were both new and similar scum builds. The bottom line is nothing is really "proven" with a meta shakeup like that but what rises to the top is telling.

Jm5K is just that broken that if you nerf one aspect of it, the other prevails.

/kappa

On 3/28/2017 at 4:03 AM, GreenDragoon said:

as I said: unless you really don't know.

There are enough smartas*es around who do that to feel smart and start discussions on semantics.

Well I'm not one of them. I'm just ignorant of whatever rulings you were talking about and am asking what they are.

18 hours ago, costi said:

Replace Miranda with Warden and you're set.

I've also played against these, against a very good player (made top8 on Tatooine) and it's an uphill stuggle for aces. I'm not saying it's unwinnable, but it's probably the worst matchup they have and strongly in favour of the K-Wings.

So now it's Miranda and Warden. You know you got to decide what you complain about.

A few tips against both Miranda and Wardens. If you move later than them, try classic arc- dodging. Get behind them and keep your distance. Yes they can drop in your path, but usually if you are not too close you can avoid it (at least conners and clusters) if you approach from front, they will just drop it in front of your ship so close that there is mothing to do, or on top of you.

Regarding the matchup... well yes, Bombers like the K usually lose to strong Alpha strikes like triple scouts or /D defenders (and plenty of other stuff) It's basically as you say. There are good and bad matchups.

But honestly even with X7 and Palpy intact, that was a difficult one for purebreed aces. Just that Scum nerf paved the road for these rebel builds to become viable again. Good for variety, as Rebels gain some competitive lists and Imps need to counter these ones on top of the other meta lists.

It's what Deathrain said. They may not have the all comers lists anymore that Commonwealth or Palpmobile were. I consider this a very healthy thing if that turns out to be the case.

17 hours ago, AlexW said:

If this were true, though, then the scum nerf should have had similar effects and we should have seen rebel builds exclusively by that logic, but there were both new and similar scum builds. The bottom line is nothing is really "proven" with a meta shakeup like that but what rises to the top is telling.

New Scum builds? You mean Triple scouts now with Attani instead of Deadeye ??

As i see it, Scum had a bit more variety in their lists even before. So they just turned to the ones that weren't nerfed.

Imps on the other hand never had to look any further than Palpy and/or Defenders lately for top lists. You might say that there is nothing else competitive, but imho it's another psychological bandwagoning effect and a bit of laziness in list building. Nobody had to be innovative when playing imps and took the safe bet. That has now been slightly nerfed...

1 hour ago, ForceM said:

New Scum builds? You mean Triple scouts now with Attani instead of Deadeye ??

As i see it, Scum had a bit more variety in their lists even before. So they just turned to the ones that weren't nerfed.

Imps on the other hand never had to look any further than Palpy and/or Defenders lately for top lists. You might say that there is nothing else competitive, but imho it's another psychological bandwagoning effect and a bit of laziness in list building. Nobody had to be innovative when playing imps and took the safe bet. That has now been slightly nerfed...

While I agree that both Palp and x7 have potential to still be viable, there is nothing "slightly" about their nerfs. X7's are now vulnerable to two major game play components, one of which (stress control) is already regaining traction. And Palp now feels and works entirely differently as he no longer provides a "safety net", as it were.

I also would like to point out that while the psychological bandwagoning is a factor in all X-Wing, but you are discounting the prevalence of auto damage that made some of the Empire's old favorites not have a favorable cost/benefit ratio. This is straight from three of my friends who are Imperial players.

1 hour ago, ForceM said:

New Scum builds? You mean Triple scouts now with Attani instead of Deadeye ??

As i see it, Scum had a bit more variety in their lists even before. So they just turned to the ones that weren't nerfed.

Imps on the other hand never had to look any further than Palpy and/or Defenders lately for top lists. You might say that there is nothing else competitive, but imho it's another psychological bandwagoning effect and a bit of laziness in list building. Nobody had to be innovative when playing imps and took the safe bet. That has now been slightly nerfed...

You're right, they're not new builds so much as they are variations on what was already strong. In my experience, the notion of players being lazy is a weak argument. I find that players actually like to bring original lists. Palp was already being played less before the nerf and there's data to indicate that defenders were also being -- at the least -- countered more strongly by the meta. I'm not saying I have an issue with the nerfs or that the imperials don't have anything else that can be competitive, but they are definitely in a different place than the other factions.

It's simply math (and I think frankly obvious once considered) more than anyone being lazy. When one faction has half the unique upgrade cards and three fewer slots, they have a lot less opportunity for strong card combinations as a faction. We're seeing both those kinds of upgrades and unique slots play a role in every list doing well.

1 hour ago, ForceM said:

Imps on the other hand never had to look any further than Palpy and/or Defenders lately for top lists. You might say that there is nothing else competitive, but imho it's another psychological bandwagoning effect and a bit of laziness in list building. Nobody had to be innovative when playing imps and took the safe bet. That has now been slightly nerfed...

I don't know why you think Imp players weren't already experimenting and playing with new builds before the nerf. Palp X7 wasn't dominating prior to the FAQ- it was doing OK. Lots of Imps were/are looking for the next big thing- the problem is that pretty much all Imp ships suffer from the same overriding weakness: they're fragile. Without tools like Palp and x7 that fragility is the defining feature of Imps- regardless of list composition. In a meta with Sabine/Miranda, TLTs, stress-everywhere, the Imp options are just so bad. Can Imps win? Absolutely: If they fly perfectly, and get good dice. One mistake, one blank roll and it's and game over. It's different for scum and rebels: so much flexibility, so much toughness, so many unique options, so many forgiving mechanics that allow you to weather the multi-game pressure of tournaments and tailor lists to the micro-meta scene. Imps just lack that flexibility, the myriad options, the access to tough ships (besides Defender). Palp and X7 were our answers to that deficiency. Believe me I wish it wasn't like that, I FAR prefer more interesting lists than just Palp Aces and Defenders- but the reality is that every time I throw down a list that isn't some flavor of Defenders, I get wiped off the board by the more powerful scum and rebel options. The only games I'm really enjoying playing at the moment are Imp vs Imp- and it's the only format where I feel like I can actually innovate with my lists and actually do well with new things. And I'm sure I'm not the only Imp player who feels like that.

21 minutes ago, AlexW said:

It's simply math (and I think frankly obvious once considered) more than anyone being lazy. When one faction has half the unique upgrade cards and three fewer slots, they have a lot less opportunity for strong card combinations as a faction. We're seeing both those kinds of upgrades and unique slots play a role in every list.

So many Scum/Rebel ships just have these GROSS upgrade bars- tons of great slots- plus they have all these amazing options for those slots. Tons of unique upgrades/crew, tons of opportunity for synergy in those slots. Look at K-Wing vs. Punisher. K is better in every conceivable way. It's so much better, in fact, that I've never seen a Punisher on the table at ANY tournament (or seen one at any Regional/Open EVER). K has: better dial, SLAM (and access to the amazing Adv. Slam), a Crew slot (not to mention this synergizes with the best Crew in the game, Sabine), and a turret (cause TLTs is just what Miranda needed to make her ability have ZERO drawback).

And even if a couple cards in that combo got nerfed, lets say Sabine and TLTs- because of those amazing slots and the accompanying upgrades still make the K a great ship: because they can play around with the composition of the upgrades to find the 'next big thing'. And it's like that with a lot of Scum/Rebel ships (See JM5K): they're just so flexible, they can come up with the craziest interesting/powerful combos- whereas most Imp ships have 1 or two ways to build them because they generally have very restrictive upgrade bars. And a lot of our powerful upgrade cards, like X7 Defender title, FURTHER restrict our upgrade bar choices (no missiles or cannons), making ships like X7 Defender completely predictable as to how they'll be equipped. Same with 2 crew Palp- further restriction on upgrade bar, limiting combos and synergy.

Well you are at least starting to get a bit more reasonable it seems, so we finally can maybe discuss what FFG can do improve on the already excellent balancing we have right now.

I can agree that Imps have less options, and that therefore they should get more of them. It's kinda difficult to do since we see more unique Rebel and Scum characters, droids and generally... stuff than imperials since all the movies and series are not focused on Imps...

But nonetheless it should be done. Regarding the ships i still don't agree that they are any worse. They have less/different slots, and obviously their stats are weighted differently, but they also are generally cheaper, more swarmy and the options they do have are often very potent combos that are extremely point efficient.

A thing they do lack are crew slots on versatile ships. I mean they do get them but then generally on dedicated transports. Which makes sense from a military standpoint but is a bit of a problem when considering that you have to spend a lot of pounts just ferrying around someone in a ship that does nothing else.

So Imps need more options in future releases. It is difficult to do without destroying faction identity, but nonethelesse it's feasible.

Something i can't see is that Rebel/Scum ships are more tanky than imps. They have more HP and less agility, and even that only in certain cases. For instance it does not get a lot tankier than an x7 Defender in X-wing.

The agility builds with 3 or more agility (plus token hogging plus Autothrusters plus Emperor in some cases) dominated the meta for a very long time indeed. Since Phantoms basically. That was why imps were so overly powerful for a prolonged period. They had most of these ships. Rebels only have Corran, Scum only recently got Fenn.

Then we got some options like good bombs and bombers (finally!) and ones that play around agility or token hogging, or we just got new platforms for these weapons, and suddenly the critical mass is reached where imp aces can not be the only answer to the meta anymore (that's also why i think the nerfs were unneccessary because redundant)

But the lack of creativity of imp players is still an issue on top of all that. No risks, same list different day. Never change a winning team... There have always been options outside the treaded paths even if they are maybe not quite as numerous as for Rebels. Some are underrated too, like Backdraft for instance.

Now that Rebels start to take out low agi ships again, even ordnance alpha-Strikes seem better again. Granted this is then weak against other lists, but at some point you just have to accept that there is no more go-to all comers list anymore. (Except Palpy Defenders which is still great, seriously, test it! I am 6:1 with it since nerf. Against decent players and lists too)

Regarding too little options: I always felt all TIEs should have an Ion Engine slot in which TIE only mods could be placed. Immediate buff to all LWF carriers. Especially punisher and bomber. Them or an /sf with LWF and Guidance chips? Hell yeah! Defenders wie Mk2 and Hull upgrade? You betcha! Interceptors with Mk2 for more options? Would give them a slight buff, maybe just what is needed. (Generic) Phantoms with LWF and stygium? Maybe turns them viable again.

Wow... I actually love this idea. Anyone sees anything broken with that? If not: FFG pls upgrade the modification rules to say "Any ship with TIE in its name may equip one additional modification with the TIE only requirement."

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

But the lack of creativity of imp players is still an issue on top of all that. No risks, same list different day. Never change a winning team... There have always been options outside the treaded paths even if they are maybe not quite as numerous as for Rebels. Some are underrated too, like Backdraft for instance.

You were doing okay until here. You didn't respond to the other reason why you didn't see a lot of Imperial diversity that I mentioned.

Your tone also implies that Imps alone are creatively bankrupt, and yet two of the same Rebel list won two of the recent system opens, flown by two different people. And how many Parattanni lists ran around in it's hay day? Lazy list flying is a universal condition in X-Wing. If you are really trying to be helpful, don't point to that as an Imp only problem, but acknowledge that it is something every faction deals with.

27 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You were doing okay until here. You didn't respond to the other reason why you didn't see a lot of Imperial diversity that I mentioned.

Your tone also implies that Imps alone are creatively bankrupt, and yet two of the same Rebel list won two of the recent system opens, flown by two different people. And how many Parattanni lists ran around in it's hay day? Lazy list flying is a universal condition in X-Wing. If you are really trying to be helpful, don't point to that as an Imp only problem, but acknowledge that it is something every faction deals with.

Good points and I think it's ridiculous that someone would think one factions players are just less creative.

I've tried to point out that creativity is an Imperial problem but not because of the players. They have significantly fewer combinations that they can create because of the lower number of unique cards and three fewer upgrade slots (soon will be two) available on ships.