47 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Nope, you quoted Lobokai...

Well, egg meet face then.

I don't think trying to equate Ghost with the Kanan/Biggs/Zeb/Rey/M9 option to a Decimator is helpful to anyone trying to prove that Imperials aren't flying uphill.

Another problem is that Rebels and Scum get a lot of upgrades boosting their action efficiency, while the Imperials have to pay through the nose for anything that's even remotely similar.

Let's take mindlink - costs 1 point per ship, has no range limit, and any ship can use it to provide a focus token to all ships. The comparable thing in the Empire is the Fleet Officer or General Hux. Both require a dedicated crew carrier (in the case of Hux, a shuttle, the guy's too posh to travel in a mere bomber) that severely limits you list building, have a range limit and can deal a limited number of tokens, cost an action and leave the ship stressed... all for the tiny cost of 3 points for 2 tokens or 5 points for 3 tokens (not counting the 16/21 points for the shuttle)...

There is no way to store tokens like Rey or Moldy Crow, no Agromechs conjuring target locks out of thin air... the best we can hope for is FCS on 4 ships or x7 Defenders.

Another open (stele) to add to the mix:

8 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Another open (stele) to add to the mix:

List breakdown before every elimination round:

Top 32 = 19 Scum, 7 Rebel, 6 Imperial

Top 16 = 13 Scum, 2 Rebel, 1 Imperial

Top 8 = 6 Scum, 2 Rebel

Top 4 = 3 Scum, 1 Rebel

Finals = Scum vs. Rebel

How many more of these results will be needed to consider them "significants"? It's just about to get worst with the Croc release. Add to that another bomber for Rebels (probably the best pilot of the scum xpac). They had to give them all the cross faction stuff, because you know, in the source material, no scum/villain never worked with/for the empire...

Looks pretty even between Rebels and Empire, but Scum continues to be problematic. Or at least dominant. That is the trend we can take from these, notthat the empire lies in ruins. That narrative has not found a real foundation (yet?).

On 24.03.2017 at 5:43 PM, nigeltastic said:

This statement is why there aren't any imperials directly after the nerfs.

Not that your statement has any truth to it but rather the misguided sentiment that a) you could only play palp defenders competitively and b) that list is dead and palp is bad now. There are a lot of people who agree with you but they are wrong. Having played against both versions of palp piloted by the same person and in the same regional winning list it's barely a noticeable nerf .

His sentiment doesn't have any truth because you said so? With all respect but you are wrong.
Palp is horribly overpriced now. His main strenght was security he provided. You knew that if your fragile 3 hp ship blanks out on green dice you can always resort to Palpatine.

Of course Imperials are still playable, but saying that Palp nerf is barely noticable is as wrong as it gets. IF that is indeed and nerf doesn't change anything why is it introduced in the first place?

Can we agree that Palpatine nerf was overdone? Especially in the wake of bomber-mania for Rebels.

Having said that I think saying that Empire is underpowered is just wrong. Defenders are still good, Decimator got a great choices of crew, TIE sf is a good pick in this meta and Inquisitor is still a perfect pocket Ace. Dare to try something new in Squadron Builder.
Some changes were needed - for a long, LONG time Rebels were nowhere to be seen at the top tables, with the exception of bombers. I play all three factions, and I must admit I feel current state of things is really good and all three factions are equally playable.
The only problems in the game in my opinion currently are Sabine crew card and to a certain extent Biggs.

P.S. Personally I would also gladly see the demise of ordnance but it looks like some folks really dig it.

To quote a person from this thread:

Quote from Sabinekey

"So, while I will not discount the possibility of part of the lack of Imperial lists being because people are scared off, recent system open results suggest other things. If it were simply people scared, you would also see dips in Scum lists too, but you don't. Heck, I saw a Fangaroo lists in the top 16 of Stele. Someone was confident enough in the Nerfed Manny to try to take Fangaroo. I've been hearing stories that Parattanni is still out and about. But Imperial lists are still low. That says to me that players who have had over a month to figure something out with Imperial lists are still steering clear. That is highly suggestive of a poor ability to preform in the current meta.

As for them having great pilots (which they do), the problem comes that few have a chance to shine because the meta is currently chalk full of their predators. SLAMing bombers with Sabine and other autodamage tricks make low health aces too risky to fly. While x7 is still solid, their new vulnerability in stress has sparked a revival of stress control. As stress control is on the rise, you will see less Defenders, cause we all know how a non-x7 defender can fold.

Once a Palp list places reasonably high in a big tournament, then I will accept he is still good.

To sum up, people think Imperials are doing bad right not because the data says they are. I'm not saying it is hopeless or that they can't rally what they have to recapture their glory, but because they haven't even started yet is very worrying."

Can anyone explain why the scums dont have to "adapt" to their nerf like the Imperials do? The faction has been there since the beginning of the game. It's not like players don't know the options available to them. Could it be that there was/is no competitive option?

1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Looks pretty even between Rebels and Empire, but Scum continues to be problematic. Or at least dominant. That is the trend we can take from these, notthat the empire lies in ruins. That narrative has not found a real foundation (yet?).

Even? There is no Imperial in the top 8 and only one in the top 16. The event was won by a rebel player.

Food for thought,

First Imp tends to dominate worlds and such in the past, I could not be more happy that Rebels have such a strong showing. (I am imp player)

2nd how many of the top players switched from Imps to Scum/Rebels this go around.

3rd how many of the imp players where terrible with something like defenders and could not fly them without the tokens always being given, or used palp as a crutch. ( BTW palp is just as good and if flown not into objects defenders are still good not overly broken but still good)

4th how many people found new love for older ships that have not seen much play.

5th change makes people sad but is always needed for games like these. We as players should adapt and overcome.

In the end I am excited as an Imp player because this mean I need to strengthen my playing style to match the Rebel/Scum counter parts. Give it a month or two and everyone will be back to complaining that Tie Swarm is too good.

PS nothing is as broken as the Phantom pre nerf. Today's favor is rebels wave 12 who knows.

On 2017-04-10 at 10:13 AM, Embir82 said:

Some changes were needed - for a long, LONG time Rebels were nowhere to be seen at the top tables, with the exception of bombers. I play all three factions, and I must admit I feel current state of things is really good and all three factions are equally playable. The only problems in the game in my opinion currently are Sabine crew card and to a certain extent Biggs.

P.S. Personally I would also gladly see the demise of ordnance but it looks like some folks really dig it.

And yet we had 2 rebel players in the top 4 of the last World... We now have the results of 4 Open events since the nerf and Imperials are almost nowhere in the top tables. Thats not balance. Ordnances are a big part of the problem, i agree with that. At least they are for the Imperials. The 2 Imps ordnance ships are bad.

I wouldnt mind them staying but we need some form of defence against them. Anything that can auto hit or can regularly throw at you more than 3 fully moded attack dices is a problem for high agi, low health ships. The game is now full of auto hit (and/or close to auto) damage sources. Imps needed auto defense to counter that. The only source they had (X7 and palp) have been taken away.

Defenders wouldnt be in a bad position IF there was no stressbot and no triple Jumps in the meta. It's way too easy for a stressbot protected by Biggs to double stress a ship. Especially when that ship is predictable. It's also way too easy for the uboats to block. Three large base ships with amazing dials and barrel rolls. Add to that a crew slot for Intel agent. It's not just the defenders they put in trouble. Many Imperial ships rely to their action to protect their meager health. When it can be denied so easily, we have ships that cant compete...

14 minutes ago, Cubanboy said:

Food for thought,

First Imp tends to dominate worlds and such in the past, I could not be more happy that Rebels have such a strong showing. (I am imp player)

2nd how many of the top players switched from Imps to Scum/Rebels this go around.

3rd how many of the imp players where terrible with something like defenders and could not fly them without the tokens always being given, or used palp as a crutch. ( BTW palp is just as good and if flown not into objects defenders are still good not overly broken but still good)

4th how many people found new love for older ships that have not seen much play.

5th change makes people sad but is always needed for games like these. We as players should adapt and overcome.

In the end I am excited as an Imp player because this mean I need to strengthen my playing style to match the Rebel/Scum counter parts. Give it a month or two and everyone will be back to complaining that Tie Swarm is too good.

1st: But still not actually win worlds since the first one.

2nd: Unsure, but that further indicates a problem with Imp lists if people are jumping ship.

3rd: This point doesn't actually explain much. Yes, there are those who used lists like Commonwealth because it was forgiving. It still didn't dominate like Parattanni did and is all but extinct now. As I have said before, I will believe Palp is still good when he places high in a major tournament.

4Th: Some, but they don't seem to be taking them to the big tournaments. Plus, most of the old guard for Imps are a bit too risky with Bomber Sabine being rather prevalent.

5th: Agreed, but we since we still aren't seeing the Empire adapt yet. Considering the amount of time, it looks less and less like a "grief" period and more like a lack of answers to the current meta. Not saying they can't come back, but current data is troubling.

On 2017-04-10 at 10:46 AM, Cubanboy said:

Food for thought,

First Imp tends to dominate worlds and such in the past, I could not be more happy that Rebels have such a strong showing. (I am imp player)

2nd how many of the top players switched from Imps to Scum/Rebels this go around.

3rd how many of the imp players where terrible with something like defenders and could not fly them without the tokens always being given, or used palp as a crutch. ( BTW palp is just as good and if flown not into objects defenders are still good not overly broken but still good)

4th how many people found new love for older ships that have not seen much play.

5th change makes people sad but is always needed for games like these. We as players should adapt and overcome.

In the end I am excited as an Imp player because this mean I need to strengthen my playing style to match the Rebel/Scum counter parts. Give it a month or two and everyone will be back to complaining that Tie Swarm is too good.

1) Imperial domination: I dont know what year you are refering to but that must have been a while ago.

2) Why do you think they switched?? They had ample time to test the changes way before they were announced. Now if we analyze from a meta point of view: 2 open after FAQ Imperials were underplayed and/or underperformed. If im a top player and i know the FAQ did not affect them so much. I bring an Imperial squad to counter a meta not expecting and/or prepared for Imps squad. There is a reason why they dont do that.

Do you really think that top players dont have the skills or the experience needed to recongnize good/bad ships,pilots and upgrades? Look at the new rebel Tie. How long did it take them to use it and perform well?

3) Three completly subjective (and false) statements. Defenders needed as much skills to perform well as triple uboats, Parratani or k-wings. Unskilled players were not reaching top positions, no matter how good their ships was. The problems for defenders are not object. They are stressbots protected by biggs and uboats that can block (see my previous post). Palp is nowhere near good anymore. Saying that is showing a lack of understanding what made him good in the first place. He wasnt used so much as a crutch but more as a way to counter overly effective offense mechanism.

4) Looking at the last 4 open i would say almost none... Well you could be right actually. Loving a ship doesnt mean being able to perform well with it. Otherwise i wouldnt have such a strong bond with my decimator

5) I agree with you. Scums were able to do just that. Problem is Imperials dont have the tools to adapt or overcome.

Don't worry, with wave 10 Scum and Rebels again get a toolbox ship with multiple slots (crew, bombs, missiles, turret) and Imperials get another ship that relies on green dice to survive... oh, but it will have access to TLT, so everything is fine, right?

1 hour ago, costi said:

Don't worry, with wave 10 Scum and Rebels again get a toolbox ship with multiple slots (crew, bombs, missiles, turret) and Imperials get another ship that relies on green dice to survive... oh, but it will have access to TLT, so everything is fine, right?

Getting access to the turret slot is a step in the right direction, though I do agree that it is not enough.

It's also a bit troubling though if that's direction they're heading. The two best Imperial ships in the current meta are Defenders and TIE/sfs, both of which fly more like Rebel ships than traditional Imperial ships. Now the Empire is getting a TLT carrier, bringing them even closer to Rebel/Scum ship types.

With 3 factions in the game, Overlap is bound to happen... besides, no-one complained when Scum got their Protectorates.

in fact, it was the opposite.

"Omg FINALLY the scum are getting a reliable interceptor-type ship!" i remember seeing that comment a ton

Imperials get a turret? "Factions should be different!" or "IMPERIALS DONT FLY THAT WAY"

*insert Joker meme here*

Giving all 3 factions access to the same upgrade card does not mean they have the same tactics. Unique interactions between the dials, pilot abilities, and faction-specific upgrades determine the strats. Imperials wont magically start flying TLT spam because we got a turret, if it goes that route i'll be surprised actually because we have a ton of shenanigans rebels/scum dont have via crew and especially the UPS shuttle. Also, TIE/SF is a great Target Synch platform, rebel/scum have 1 ship that can take it and neither want it at all (especially the Tug since then it has to buy targeting computers, so no tractor array) which enables us to use Synch Turret in a variety of ways.
TIE only upgrades, giving it 2(3) agility or all banks are green
EPT access (i see no reason for it to be denied that, since the Ywing is without it due to ancient design not gamebreaker reasons)
Innate barrelroll (which no turret spam ship has innately)

3 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Can we agree that Palpatine nerf was overdone? Especially in the wake of bomber-mania for Rebels.

Having said that I think saying that Empire is underpowered is just wrong. Defenders are still good, Decimator got a great choices of crew, TIE sf is a good pick in this meta and Inquisitor is still a perfect pocket Ace. Dare to try something new in Squadron Builder.
Some changes were needed - for a long, LONG time Rebels were nowhere to be seen at the top tables, with the exception of bombers. I play all three factions, and I must admit I feel current state of things is really good and all three factions are equally playable.
The only problems in the game in my opinion currently are Sabine crew card and to a certain extent Biggs.

P.S. Personally I would also gladly see the demise of ordnance but it looks like some folks really dig it.

Definitely agree on the Palp nerf.

As for the underpowered point, there is still a lack of data to prove that the ships and combos you said are enough. If they start to get steam (which I have hopes for /sf lists), I will happily concede this point. Until then, people saying they are still good in the face of recent data doesn't carry a lot of weight.

I agree that the changes were needed. It was a way to shake up the meta and get some new stuff at the top. The problem is that it went too far in places. Considering she's still seeing some high level play, I'll reverse my opinion that Manaroo's nerf was too much. But Palp went to far and x7's new vulnerabilities are so easily exploited that they just aren't Proving effective enough.

Ordinace is a....slippery slope. I have grown to feel bombs are a rather forced part of the meta, considering how bombs and bombers behave both in real settings and in the Star Wars media I've consumed.

9 hours ago, Thormind said:

1) Imperial domination: I dont know what year you are refering to but that must have been a while ago.

2) Why do you think they switched?? They had ample time to test the changes way before they were announced. Now if we analyze from a meta point of view: 2 open after FAQ Imperials were underplayed and/or underperformed. Im a top player and i know the FAQ did not affect them so much. I bring an Imperial squad to counter a meta not expecting and/or prepared for Imps squad. There is a reason why they dont do that.

Do you really think that top players dont have the skills or the experience needed to recongnize good/bad ships,pilots and upgrades? Look at the new rebel Tie. How long did it take them to use it and perform well?

3) Three completly subjective (and false) statements. Defenders needed as much skills to perform well as triple uboats, Parratani or k-wings. Unskilled players were not reaching top positions, no matter how good their ships was. The problems for defenders are not object. They are stressbots protected by biggs and uboats that can block (see my previous post). Palp is nowhere near goo anymore. Saying that is showing a lack of understanding what made him good in the first place. He wasnt used so much as a crutch but more as a way to counter overly effective offense mechanism.

4) euuu looking at the last 4 open i would say almost none... Well you could be right actually. Loving a ship doesnt mean being able to perform well with it. Otherwise i wouldnt have such a strong bond with my decimator

5) I agree with you. Scums were able to do just that. Problem is Imperials dont have the tools to adapt or overcome.

After reading this again, wow I sound like a jerk. Maybe I can just so go rebels until the new wave comes out :-)

16 hours ago, Thormind said:

Even? There is no Imperial in the top 8 and only one in the top 16. The event was won by a rebel player.

Elimination rounds are notoriously fickle and can swing with bad dice and fatigued players making one critical mistake that costs them. The difference between 1 and 2 lists is minimal. There also were only two rebels in top 16 and one in top 8. That one of them went on to win does not make the situation look better.

I totally agree that elimination rounds can be fickle, but the proportion of Imperials that have made a cut have been consistently small when you take the three post FAQ Opens together with Stele. 0-1 Imperial lists have made the cut at each of these events while the Rebel numbers fluctuate. Only two Rebels made Top 8 at Stele but that number is higher in the System Open cuts.

12 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

I totally agree that elimination rounds can be fickle, but the proportion of Imperials that have made a cut have been consistently small when you take the three post FAQ Opens together with Stele. 0-1 Imperial lists have made the cut at each of these events while the Rebel numbers fluctuate. Only two Rebels made Top 8 at Stele but that number is higher in the System Open cuts.

That is right, at this point I wouldn't say the 'weak empire' narrative can be discarded. It certainly isn't sufficiently supported either, though.

So so so, what do we have from the World.... 1 Imperial in the top 16, none in the top 8. Whats the argument now? The best players in the world need to adapt? It's because the Scums are so strong? Then how do you explain the 2 Rebel players in the top 8?

On 4/10/2017 at 5:55 AM, Thormind said:

Another open (stele) to add to the mix:

List breakdown before every elimination round:

Top 32 = 19 Scum, 7 Rebel, 6 Imperial

Top 16 = 13 Scum, 2 Rebel, 1 Imperial

Top 8 = 6 Scum, 2 Rebel

Top 4 = 3 Scum, 1 Rebel

Finals = Scum vs. Rebel

How many more of these results will be needed to consider them "significants"? It's just about to get worst with the Croc release. Add to that another bomber for Rebels (probably the best pilot of the scum xpac). They had to give them all the cross faction stuff, because you know, in the source material, no scum/villain never worked with/for the empire...

On 4/10/2017 at 6:07 AM, Admiral Deathrain said:

Looks pretty even between Rebels and Empire, but Scum continues to be problematic. Or at least dominant. That is the trend we can take from these, notthat the empire lies in ruins. That narrative has not found a real foundation (yet?).

No it is not even, although the gap between Rebels in imperials is smaller than the gap between rebels and scum. Though no one was surprised that Jumpmasters were in the list. However surprising it that there was no mindlink and Tel (the least played pilot) was in the top. So interesting but to be expected.

On 4/10/2017 at 10:53 AM, costi said:

With 3 factions in the game, Overlap is bound to happen... besides, no-one complained when Scum got their Protectorates.

Especially when there are so many cross over ships. However my one complaint on cross over is how dominate rebel scum cross over is. Sure Imperials can make the joke that they are one in the same but when you look at the Imperial Scum cross over the Firespray is more scum and Imperial ones are no where to be found. It doesn't have the same overlap that Y-wings have where both rebel and scum use them often and they have their own unique builds. Heck the Imperial-Rebel Overlaps more than Imperial Scum. Sill it is nice that Imperials finally get their turret upgrade slot and those that say Imperial players don't fly turrets are the (part) of the reason why their faction is doing so well.

But bottom line Scum won worlds two years* in a row. However I had to put the asterix there because it wasn't really a full year since last worlds. With most worlds there is at least two major releases that comes out (as usually a wave is prereleased at Gencon during nationals). This year since there was a smaller gap there hasn't been so much to change the meta besides a major nerf errata.