First Happy Friday and great weekend to everyone.

After listing to some excellent podcasts today, it got me thinking about a question. Does every ship have a place still in the game? (ether causal or tournament) Let me draw some definition, For example, I am not saying If we give the B-wing a title and a point reduction all is well, I am asking does the B-wing still have a place in X-wing. Off the top of my head, T-65, Kihraxz, Imp Firespray (which maybe should never have been part of the imps)?

Don't get me wrong I love collecting ships and I love the T-65 but it makes me wonder if they still have a place past just feeling like they need to be in the game?

I just played with a squad of T-65s, T-70s and A-Wings against a 4-pack of brobots and did quite well. They are a bit squishy due to red die creep, but excellent Epic ships. I would say if a title gave them 1 more Hull and/or 1 more AGI, they would be everywhere.

E-Wings need love to be their own ship. I really liked Hexbot's idea of Range 4 attacks.

I still love Firesprays* and always loved Scyks. The Khirazx is a weak point, IMHO.

The Punisher needs a way to unload ordnance faster. It is otherwise a good ship.

I think HWKs still hold up as an excellent support ship, even in tourney. Which is ironic, given that I think it is on of the weakest ships in the game, power-wise.

*And I agree. If Scum existed from the outset, they would never have been Imperial. OTOH, I think cross-over ships are fine.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I just played with a squad of T-65s, T-70s and A-Wings against a 4-pack of brobots and did quite well. They are a bit squishy due to red die creep, but excellent Epic ships. I would say if a title gave them 1 more Hull and/or 1 more AGI, they would be everywhere.

E-Wings need love to be their own ship. I really liked Hexbot's idea of Range 4 attacks.

I still love Firesprays* and always loved Scyks. The Khirazx is a weak point, IMHO.

The Punisher needs a way to unload ordnance faster. It is otherwise a good ship.

I think HWKs still hold up as an excellent support ship, even in tourney. Which is ironic, given that I think it is on of the weakest ships in the game, power-wise.

*And I agree. If Scum existed from the outset, they would never have been Imperial. OTOH, I think cross-over ships are fine.

Unguided Rockets on a punisher are going to help a lot. Great insight above.

Thematic scenarios have a place for all.

Tournaments ships rise and fall. The T-65 still wins me more games than I lose,but I've never walked away champion of the day.

Epic finds room for more ships.

I think FFG needs to create more ships like the HWK. Non-combat ships with special abilities that are just too hard to ignore. . .even in tournaments.

Like, don't give Coordinate to the Upsilon shuttle. Give it to a lowly TIE Scout.

30 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Thematic scenarios have a place for all.

Eh, Punisher, E-Wing, and Khiraxz still have a tough time of it. None of them really can distinguish themselves at this point.

TIE Scout would have Jam, obviously, and a title or mod to pass target locks.

Otherwise, while I haven't been in this as long as people like @DarthMeanie I agree with most of what they said. Mynock just did a retrospective on the Rebel HWK and talk about how a couple of its pilots are always skirting the fringes of tournament lists - they're too good to just die out, even if the HWK frame is terrible. Es, Kfighters and punishers seem like they're in a rough patch, though obviously it's hard to say that with Corran at least being pretty consistently high level play - but the rest of them aren't well used. Rockets+Frame does stuff for the punisher though, as might the new system in the H-6 (Like if it lets you pre drop all your mine-type bombs that'll be pretty sweet). Other ships might not be as optimal in some way or another, but aren't fundamentally unplayable and usually have a couple of pilots who are good enough to run even for serious competition play.

I think all ships still have a place. T-65's are often mentioned as dying out, but they are the classic and will probably always used in casual play, plus they have Biggs still being used in top level play.

The only ones I'd question currently are Khiraxz and Starvipers, as they don't have quite the nostalgia of the other ships (not to say none) and don't have one killer pilot like Biggs or Corran. But you still have people devoted to these ships who will continue to fly them.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

I think all ships still have a place. T-65's are often mentioned as dying out, but they are the classic and will probably always used in casual play, plus they have Biggs still being used in top level play.

The only ones I'd question currently are Khiraxz and Starvipers, as they don't have quite the nostalgia of the other ships (not to say none) and don't have one killer pilot like Biggs or Corran. But you still have people devoted to these ships who will continue to fly them.

I played against 4 SVipers last night. Nice greens, nice reds. Light on the shields and crazy unique pilots abilities*, but otherwise a dependable ship.

I think the T-65 suffers in the old vs. new department. I think an X-Wing designed now would look a lot different in play than it does currently. It might be the one Rebel ship that I think could be allowed the Evade action, or 1 more green, or the barrel roll**. I think the lore supports this. And, I think a series of Titles (since there are many X-Wing variants) that makes a player decide which of the 3 they might want on the cheap would make the X-Wing more interesting overall.

*Which is probably why they do not show up in tournament.

**Sure the X-Wing can take VT, but then it forgoes GC, which is a bummer if you wanted torps.

I say yes. Casually I've used 4 T65, T70, 5 Khiraxz etc.

Too many players focus on winning, even in casual play. They need to win even in pickup games. That's why I get upset with comments like D.O.A and jank before the ships have even been released.

Fly 'em like they were stolen, do it casually, have fun and don't worry about winning.

12 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

do it casually, have fun and don't worry about winning.

It's like hearing the voice of an angel*. . .

*Or whatever other ethereal higher power you subscribe to.

The main problem is X-Wing is a "competitve game" rather than a "casual game" and it's really hard to do others things than 100/6.

I played recently with this fun list :

“Zeta Leader” (20)

TIE/fo Fighter (20), Adaptability (0)

“Mauler Mithel” (17)

TIE Fighter (17), Adaptability (0)

“Scourge” (17) TIE Fighter (17), Adaptability (0)

“Backstabber” (16)

“Dark Curse” (16)

“Wampa” (14)

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

It's like hearing the voice of an angel*. . .

*Or whatever other ethereal higher power you subscribe to.

Unfortunately most of the time the voice is treated like a mosquito buzzing around your ear.

3 minutes ago, Arkanta974 said:

The main problem is X-Wing is a "competitve game" rather than a "casual game" and it's really hard to do others things than 100/6.

I played recently with two fun list :

“Wampa” (14)

“Mauler Mithel” (17)
TIE Fighter (17), Adaptability (0)

“Dark Curse” (16)

“Scourge” (17)
TIE Fighter (17), Adaptability (0)

“Backstabber” (16)

“Zeta Leader” (20)
TIE/fo Fighter (20), Adaptability (0)

And

Blue Squadron Pilot (22) x 2
B-Wing (22), Collision Detector (0)

Rookie Pilot (22) x 2
X-Wing (21), R2 Astromech (1), Integrated Astromech (0)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Despite the odd I win several games against meta list with these two lists. Hope to see more "swarm" list back in the game !

As opposed to a cooperative game I agree. But some players amp up the level of competition far in excess of what would be considered normal for a friendly game.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I think FFG needs to create more ships like the HWK. Non-combat ships with special abilities that are just too hard to ignore. . .even in tournaments.

Like, don't give Coordinate to the Upsilon shuttle. Give it to a lowly TIE Scout.

Or just better at not dropping the ball when they try. Poor U-Wing

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

I say yes. Casually I've used 4 T65, T70, 5 Khiraxz etc.

Too many players focus on winning, even in casual play. They need to win even in pickup games. That's why I get upset with comments like D.O.A and jank before the ships have even been released.

Fly 'em like they were stolen, do it casually, have fun and don't worry about winning.

I think "fly it like you stole it" is going to replace "fly casual" for me.

55 minutes ago, AdamGATX105 said:

Or just better at not dropping the ball when they try. Poor U-Wing

Well now, I actually think the U-Wing is a greatly balanced platform, it has pretty good improvements over the HWK, even. It's primary issue is that like the HWK it is a platform, but it doesn't yet have many good things to put on that platform. Pilots have good support abilities, the action when you block is pretty good, Bodhi has a good sort of ability to let fast ships run up and be a spotter for slower ships and Cassian alleviates stress which is really good - but they don't alone make the ship - they all need to work with other ships in certain variable ways which are not universally applicable. But say, Jan Ors can almost always pop in and be useful with some decent range on her ability and attack dice are almost always applicable. So the U-Wing just needs some good stuff to put on that platform. More crew like Jyn, more systems, that kind of thing. That's a pretty good spot to be, it's a very organic area to grow without needing a direct "fix".

I think all ships have a place, but I think the real question for many players is "how competitive" are they, rather than do they have a place and I think that occludes the charm and fun of many ships.

whilst it seems to frustrate some, I love how FFG will revisit unloved ships and find ways to reinvigorate them via re-releases and expansion packs - I am very much looking forward to running Sunny, for example - and always appreciate them adding titles or other fixes to get some of the ships that I love playing more regularly on the table.

i was hoping to get an Epic game in last week but didn't have time to organize and so ended up playing a 300-point match and it was a hoot - took nearly four hours but throwing 300 points of Scum goodness against the Empire was only made more fun by fielding a few ships I haven't played enough as they don't fit well into a 100 point list (Unkar Plutt, I'm looking at you!) as well as running some old pals like Kavil and Dace.

have yet to meet a ship that I didn't like and yet to buy an expansion that hasn't felt like a true addition to my collection.

YMMV.

Epic Scum (300)

Palob Godalhi (29) - HWK-290
Twin Laser Turret (6), Moldy Crow (3)

Dace Bonearm (29) - HWK-290
Ion Cannon Turret (5), Inspiring Recruit (1)

Bossk (49) - YV-666
"Mangler" Cannon (4), K4 Security Droid (3), IG-88D (1), "Gonk" (2), Engine Upgrade (4)

Kavil (31) - Y-Wing
Twin Laser Turret (6), Unhinged Astromech (1)

Unkar Plutt (23) - Quadjumper
Bombardier (1), Ion Bombs (2), Inertial Dampeners (1), Spacetug Tractor Array (2)

Fenn Rau (32) - Protectorate Starfighter
Fearlessness (1), Concord Dawn Protector (1), Autothrusters (2)

IG88-C (41) - Aggressor
Fire Control System (2), Ion Cannon (3), IG-2000 (0)

IG88-B (41) - Aggressor
Fire Control System (2), Ion Cannon (3), IG-2000 (0)

Binayre Pirate (13) - Z-95 Headhunter
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

Binayre Pirate (12) - Z-95 Headhunter

And assuming I can get him to survive long enough to make a difference, I really like flying Heff

I think it's tough to say from a competitive standpoint, but it seems like there's a growing tide of sentiment to give the T-65 some sort of fix to make it more viable at the top levels.

I'll take a different approach here and give you another perspective. I live in Northeast PA and there's not a game store within an hour of me. The only store that sells X-wing ships is our local B&N (and kudos to them for keeping a great stock and letting coupons be used on them). I visit B&N at least once a week, and the ships sell there at a steady rate. I haven't ever played in a tournament and I really only play with friends and my son. Still, I own almost every ship that's been produced and enjoy putting different combos together and playing thematic games. I'm all for more ships from a collectability and casual standpoint, as it adds variety. The Starviper, for example, is one of my favorites because I loved Shadows of the Empire. I do understand that more ships means FFG will struggle to find ways to distinguish them statistically, struggle to keep the game balanced because playtesting becomes more and more expansive, struggle to keep the "main" ships (like the T-65) viable, and struggle to balance whether to add new mechanics to keep things fresh. Still, there are so many ships they haven't made! I'd love to see an entire prequels/clone wars release (although I understand that realistically these ships shouldn't stand up to their newer equivalents, so it'll be tough to figure this out although they've done it with the ARC-170 which hints at more to come maybe).

I think the game is at an interesting point where there are so many ships it does start to make new players dizzy figuring out what to get and there is natural burnout. New ships bring so much excitement, though, I'm not sure how they stop. I think their release schedule is about right. I wouldn't like to see them release more ships each year, for example. I'm a little surprised they haven't released packs with just card upgrades or a few new cards and some custom tokens or something, but the real bang for the buck for them is the ships, so it's probably not worth it.

Tournaments are one thing and I will leave that alone as I haven't participated in one in over a year.

Casually, though, everything has a place. I don't understand why it wouldn't. Every ship has a place that no other ship has. Each one is unique in some way (at least in their faction). If we are talking Casual, Missions, and just large point games, then yes, everything has a place. Tie Punishers are heavy bombers and if you build a mission that requires heavy bombers, they shine.

I don't get the Kihraxz hate so much. Sure, they don't have the elite pilots like the T-65m but they are a cheap way to get a lot of attack dice on the table for Scum. 20 pts for a maneuverable 3 attack die ship isn't that bad. Three or four of these guys flying at someone can put the serious hurt on them. One thing they have that the X-wing doesn't is a 1 hard turn. That's a great move! I've thrown these in lists and they have been really successful. With the 2 dice, they can dodge a hit or two and be a bit harder to kill than one would expect. When you can put 5 of these guys in a list for 100 pts, that's some serious firepower.

When you get into missions where you have multiple objectives that need to be met then "workhorse" ships like the T-65 and Kihraxz Fighter really shine. I'm play testing missions for the GenCon event and these types of ships shine in these moments.

To answer the question I think you need to ask a different one:

Are you playing for fun, or to win / be "competitive".

You can have great fun playing with all the "sub-par" ships (especially if vs a weaker opponent) so from that perspective yes, they definitely have a place in the game.

Some of them, currently, just have better alternatives, so generally from a competitive view there is no place for them.

Most of my games are with my family or friends, and I would happily take any ship and have a fun game. But I wouldn't take a Punisher to a tournament event where, while still wanting fun, I also want to be competitive.

They all have a place. It's just that for some of them that place isn't currently 'the competitive metagame'.

50 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Tie Punishers are heavy bombers and if you build a mission that requires heavy bombers, they shine.

My last theorycrafted list was called Punishers that Bomb and Bombers that Punish. Haven't flown it yet, but maybe I'm on to something. . .

42 minutes ago, Dave Grant said:

To answer the question I think you need to ask a different one:

Are you playing for fun, or to win / be "competitive".

8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

They all have a place. It's just that for some of them that place isn't currently 'the competitive metagame'.

Yep. It's kinda like asking if all cars have a place. Do you want to get to work, or are you heading to the track?

kfighters dont. Prior to the Protectorate...maybe they did...but unless a new illicit comes out that the kfighter actually WANTS theres 0 reason to take it over a protectorate. Cost of 1 shield for +1 agi, auto evade facetoface, boost, barrelroll, 2troll, 2green turns, and a 5fwd...not to mention vastly better abilities.

Punishers really dont atm, but come unguided missiles they might have a resurgence to atleast casual levels.

Thats about it really. Lambda/uwing are close but even they have uses