I'm looking for a easy to digest explanation of the age of sigmar .....Thing.

Pardon my noobliness..But isn't it basically a squad based ( smaller army) variant of fantasy battles?

Why is it bad ? Good? What's all the fuss around it?

It is a totally new setting and it's a different rule set, many WHF players hoped for getting a rule system without all the junk not a new setting with completely new rules and without massed infantry regimental style warfare and that is probably why many old WHF players don't like it and some even hate it.

If it is good or bad I can't tell you. What it is well I can only tell you that the old world was destroyed at the end of the end times and we now have different mortal realms that are linked by gates and over time chaos has conquered them all or many and now Sigmar's Stormhos are trying to reconquer them. The setting has of course new and different armies and names (Aelfes for Elves and Duardin for dwarfs I think) and some of the old name characters seem to be gods now.

One more thing is all the old fluff is gone and things work differently in AoS, armies like the Bretonians and Khemri have been discontinued but you get rules for all the old models. Though many think that over time all old unused (some of the old models are used in new factions) will be sorted out so everything from the old WHF which existed many years and had a great fan base will be gone. And yes even in the end it had a fans they but most of the didn't buy stuff encase off the bad ruled and prices and so they hoped for better trimmed down rules and for a cheaper game but with the same setting.

And i think AoS hadn't had the best start with a game without point costs and new cheap way to start, the Start Collecting boxes and the Generals Handbook with points are more relatively recent additions.

Ahhh. Right on. I think I follow.

Thanks captain!

The way I heard it is they made an entirely new game and paid lip service to old models being compatible with it and were surprised that everyone told them to go jump in a lake.

All the guys in my vicinity who played WFB or the like refused to even look at AoS. I overheard a... colorful conversation between a proprietor and his GW rep regarding AoS.

.

51 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

Ahhh. Right on. I think I follow.

Thanks captain!

No problem.

Some more thing that probably put off some WHF players were that every weapon a model/unit had had a to hit value you have to roll to hit regardless of what the target is, so a goblin with a spear needs the same number on a dice to hit another goblin or an agile elven Swordmaster. This of course makes the game faster then comparing weapon skill charts but some thought it is wrong/lacking. Then there were special win condition for the player with less miniatures in his army, but you just counted your miniatures there were no rules that bigger models count as more than one model, so if the army of player one was a giant or chaos lord on dragon and his opponent's army was 3 goblins, player one would get extra win conditions be uses he had fewer models. Another thing was you didn't measure from the base (because the WHF models had square bases and the AoS ones have round bases) instead you measured from any point on the miniature, your guy has a outstretched sword hand, go measure from the tip of the sword for example.

And about old models some had rules that had the player pray to the gods to get bonuses or challenge their opponent in an appropriate tone/manner and many thought that that is silly or even a punch in their face.Of course most players just ignored that and used the bonuses anyways and changed the miniature counting so that bigger models counted more and still measured from base to base.

So there was justified and unjustified anger/concerns.

On 3/23/2017 at 11:26 AM, Velvetelvis said:

I'm looking for a easy to digest explanation of the age of sigmar .....Thing.

Pardon my noobliness..But isn't it basically a squad based ( smaller army) variant of fantasy battles?

Why is it bad ? Good? What's all the fuss around it?

OK....it's not like it's a different game than WHFB. It REPLACED WHFB. So, there is no other version of the game. Warhammer Fantasty Battle that you might have known and loved is dead and gone. It's not official at all. Instead, they gave you a different game that uses about the same minis, but they stuck them on round bases. Oh, the whole unit thing where the entire point of the game was about moving units around to flank and counter charge and all that....well...it's turned into a mob of the old minis on round bases that just kind of mob up in the middle. Forget all those cool rules and concepts of moving army units around. It's a just a bunch of gangs.

The fluff for the game is ripped to shreds. Lots of armies just don't exist anymore. So, if that's your thing that you spent $1000 on, you just can't play the game anymore.

Oh, they started off saying that there were no points in the game anymore. Just....show up with stuff that you want to play. Put whatever you want on the table. Then, when enough people complained, they did come out with some sort of point system. \

There are some people who hate Age of Sigmar so much, but miss the old game that went around and created their own version of the game. It's called 9th Age since the last official version was 8th Ed. It's basically 9th Ed. I read through some of the rules and army books and it's pretty much the most well balanced version of the game to ever come out. I know long term fans that swear by it. From what I understand, the majority of the UK gamers just went with AoS as they have to play in GW shops and all that. The US pretty much plays 9th Age and are enjoying it. I.....saw what was coming and dropped the game to start playing X-wing and have never been happier.

And because it literally replaced WHFB, the two major WHFB tournament groups banded together and made their own ruleset for it. One that, atleast from what i hear from the locals playing it since i dont own WHFB minis, is extremely well thought out and fun.

The mere presence of such a thing should scream at GW that they fudged up hardcore.

Remember Charlton Heston at the very end of the original Planet of the Apes?

That was essentially the WFB community's response to Age of Sigmar.

GW basically took a game with 25+ years of history, fluff and lore and threw it out the window, just so they could rename "Orcs" to "Orruks", and copyright them.

The rule system, at launch, was a complete joke, with basically no way to pls a balanced, competitive game - you basically put whatever you wanted on the table and rolled dice. It wax the death knell for organised play.

Much-loved armies and characters were basically removed from existence, everything which made the setting interesting vanished, and with essentially no functioning rule system, the player base left in droves.

It's all very strange. I'm an "old timey" gamer guy. Back in my day games workshop was basically just the name in the corner of my rogue trader book.

Seems like as the years go on ,the company has gotten...Eh.... Experimental....With how they want to do things.

Reading through this thread, it would be easy to miss the fact that WHFB accounted for about 5% of GW's net profit before it died a rightful and timely death. Last I heard AoS was hovering somewhere around the 30% mark; clearly someone's a fan. I get all the doom and gloom coming from people with X amount of money invested in a particular army, but GW is first and foremost a hobby company - always has been. If you don't like assembling and painting new models all the time, then, well, maybe it's just not for you. Personally, I think the new models look amazing, and AoS has done a great job of bringing fresh blood onto the tabletop. GW is actually listening to their customers now, soliciting feedback on social media and at all the major events, taking a good long look at their rulesets and amending them as necessary, and internet sales are about to be a thing again. All things told, this is a great time to be playing either of their games, and it's only going to get better.

13 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

It's all very strange. I'm an "old timey" gamer guy. Back in my day games workshop was basically just the name in the corner of my rogue trader book.

Seems like as the years go on ,the company has gotten...Eh.... Experimental....With how they want to do things.

Actually, they went public with their stock and that really changed things. They kicked out all the high paying old timers who created the game and fluff and brought in new blood.

6 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Reading through this thread, it would be easy to miss the fact that WHFB accounted for about 5% of GW's net profit before it died a rightful and timely death. Last I heard AoS was hovering somewhere around the 30% mark; clearly someone's a fan. I get all the doom and gloom coming from people with X amount of money invested in a particular army, but GW is first and foremost a hobby company - always has been. If you don't like assembling and painting new models all the time, then, well, maybe it's just not for you. Personally, I think the new models look amazing, and AoS has done a great job of bringing fresh blood onto the tabletop. GW is actually listening to their customers now, soliciting feedback on social media and at all the major events, taking a good long look at their rulesets and amending them as necessary, and internet sales are about to be a thing again. All things told, this is a great time to be playing either of their games, and it's only going to get better.

From what I hear, 40k is still crap. It's dead in my local shop. All GW is dead in my local shop. So, maybe if it's 30% now then maybe that's because 40k took such a big hit, too.

Great game? Maybe, but it's more a skirmish game with their idiotic round bases. What made WHFB great was it was a military game about units. You had to watch your flanks and advance your infantry. Fire war machines at defensive infantry units. It was a great game. Now it's some lame skirmish game with none of the finesse. What made the whole thing interesting is dead and gone.

I will admit that their minis have only gotten better through the ages. They look great, but you won't see me spending money on them.

40k's problem is they love their poster child too much. They dont evenly release things, the Orks went THREE EDITIONS without a new codex, and the only new thing period they got was a janky flyer that was 'fun' to use due to the usual ork fistfull of inaccurate dice, but was nowhere near good. Hell it even got nerfed in the new dex, in fact the only buff i'd say they got at all in the new dex was MANz missiles could benefit from Mob Rule now at the cost of Ork Boyz becoming nearly useless.

Meanwhile Space Mehrines got a dex a year-ish after the last one and it gets a flat all-around buff.

Tyranids also got shafted, though not as bad as Orks.

Almost every single thing they come out with thats out of codex bonus units is for space marines only, and sometimes chaos space marines can take it.

Even though Eldar/Tau were powerhouses and very popular, even they pretty much never got anything ever outside a new dex release. Oh on that note Eldar got a new dex faster than orks/tyranids too and it was a flatout buff as well, Tau too but they didnt get anything to spike their power level (just more all rounded).

Finally, 40k has this really annoying habit of hard counters. Ghostkeels are my favorite Tau model by far, they look AWESOME as a result i have 3 of them i run as a squad. Problem is they were never a mediocre unit, they either wrecked faces or went splat immediately. The walking 2+ cover save outside 12" meant unless you ignored cover (which flatout countered them so fast they usually died in 1 round) you couldnt touch them in shooting.

I'm hoping 8th edition 40k curbs that and they start releasing more regular stuff for non-space marines. Not holding my breath though, even with GW's recent change in mentality they still have a really bad rep for nerfing currently popular models to oblivion (either by new model hardcounter or reducing its value directly) and making the new expensive models OP as balls.

Yes WHf was as good as dead but that was more or less GW's own doing. And AoS also hadn't had the best start, things got better when the Start Collecting boxes came out and the Generals Handbook was released and here they listened to the community because they wwant to make money which is totaly fine for a company and yes it is good that they brought back Blood Bowl and will bring back more stuff but that and other changes were long overdue, we will see how the 8th edition of 40K is, taht will be the next big step and yes 40K needs work most and balancing and for once they should follow a concept and not change it mid edition. But don't get me wrongI still enjoy 40K and I have tought about starting AoS with Sylaventh/Tzeentch/Ironjaws or the new dwarfs, but I will always miss WHF because I really liked those big ranked infantry formations and AoS does not have this.
And they had to change because there are many competitors out there that are doing well or stealing there customers, auite a few have better rulesets, others are skirmishers whre you need much less miniatures than for 40K or they are preassembled and painted like X-Wing.

And I owning, and having seen many miniatures from different companies would say there are quite a few that have miniatures as good as GW or even better, but this is of course a highly subjectiv matter and depends on what you look, the aestehtics, the sculpt and it's quality, the material or the stuff you get and yes GW's palstic is good and you get a lot of extra pieces and many miniatures are very well posable but in regards to quality I think as already said there are quite a few companies out there with miniatures that are as good ore better as GW miniatures.

AFAICT from the sidelines GW shot themselves REALLY hard in the foot by releasing Total War:Warhammer in the original Warhammer world with the cool old races and characters JUST after killing the entire WFB tabletop game universe and replacing it with bland uninspiring dreck with terrible rules that were actively designed to punish players for wanting to play the old WFB races. Not to mention that the minis were pretty shocking in terms of design and STAGGERINGLY expensive. Like 18 quid for less plastic than you get in a 14 quid K wing and you have to assemble and paint it yourself.

GW used to be basically the only game in town in the UK , but it's taken a HUGE hit recently with the resurgence of tabletop gaming in general and minis games in particular, not just X-Wing but Infinity, Dropfleet, Malifaux, Warmahordes etc etc etc.

They've since just about managed to stop shooting more bullets into the injury, and start bandaging it instead. I don't know for sure but rumour has it here have been some MAJOR changes in management both personnel and strategy. Which is good given that the last guy basically proudly boasted about not doing marketing in his stockholders' reports.

Spectating on GW's magnificent meltdown is what finally got me off my butt and playing x-wing. That and finishing our D&D campaign.

42 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

...but I will always miss WHF because I really liked those big ranked infantry formations and AoS does not have this.

And they had to change because there are many competitors out there that are doing well or stealing there customers, auite a few have better rulesets, others are skirmishers whre you need much less miniatures than for 40K or they are preassembled and painted like X-Wing.

I fully agree with this. In the past 10 years, we have seen a ton of Fantasy skirmish games come out. The only thing that set WHFB apart was that it was an ARMY game. Now, they dropped that and went with skirmish? Kings of War is doing very well from what I hear. If I hadn't found X-wing I would probably be doing that. Or....just playing the fully fan made 9th Ed. I looked at some of the army books and they were the best army books I've ever seen.

25 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Not to mention that the minis were pretty shocking in terms of design and STAGGERINGLY expensive. Like 18 quid for less plastic than you get in a 14 quid K wing and you have to assemble and paint it yourself.

My friend went and looked at 40k as he hasn't played in a long time. He found a really cool hero mini. IT WAS $30 FOR ONE MINI?!?!?!?!?!? That's insane. Oh, I see they have these army boxes that are reasonably priced, but if you want to buy outside of that, you are screwed.

I always had to laugh when I hear Brits complaining about GW prices. I've found that there are lots of things different for cost of living between the UK and US. There is housing, price of petrol, etc. Overall, though, the average guy in either country has about the same level of dollars/pounds to spend on their hobby at the end of the month. As in the guy in the UK has about 50 pounds and the guy in US has about 50 dollars. The GW prices after conversion to US makes it so much harder for the US GW enthusiast. It's downright brutal. You talk about 18 pounds for a unit when we are paying $25 for the same one. That's half our hobby money when it's only a third of yours.

even worse for aussies

Pretty much nothing over there is under 100 for them, and if it is it isnt by much.

I probably would have never gotten into 40k if i wasnt single/in the military at the time so i had the money to burn. Still single but not in the military lol. i made the mistake of calculating what i have spent on 40k....i shouldnt have done that rofl....

One of my 40k friends pointed out that ive spent quite a lot on xwing as well so "whats the difference" - difference being my ~3000USD in Tau isnt even a fully decked out army, its missing some units entirely or missing enough of a certain unit to actually do something with while my HALF THAT in xwing is the entire xwing availability on all 3 factions. Only thing xwing wise i dont have is repeat spams such as i dont have 3 jm5ks or kwings.
...still cant believe i bought a Ta'unar though. Almost 400USD after conversions for one model LOL

19 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I fully agree with this. In the past 10 years, we have seen a ton of Fantasy skirmish games come out. The only thing that set WHFB apart was that it was an ARMY game. Now, they dropped that and went with skirmish? Kings of War is doing very well from what I hear. If I hadn't found X-wing I would probably be doing that. Or....just playing the fully fan made 9th Ed. I looked at some of the army books and they were the best army books I've ever seen.

My friend went and looked at 40k as he hasn't played in a long time. He found a really cool hero mini. IT WAS $30 FOR ONE MINI?!?!?!?!?!? That's insane. Oh, I see they have these army boxes that are reasonably priced, but if you want to buy outside of that, you are screwed.

I always had to laugh when I hear Brits complaining about GW prices. I've found that there are lots of things different for cost of living between the UK and US. There is housing, price of petrol, etc. Overall, though, the average guy in either country has about the same level of dollars/pounds to spend on their hobby at the end of the month. As in the guy in the UK has about 50 pounds and the guy in US has about 50 dollars. The GW prices after conversion to US makes it so much harder for the US GW enthusiast. It's downright brutal. You talk about 18 pounds for a unit when we are paying $25 for the same one. That's half our hobby money when it's only a third of yours.

Mantic's fantasy models look like hot garbage, but they're a fair amount cheaper than GW. Apparany that wasn't sustainable, though, and they've had to hike their prices recently.

$30 is the new pricing paradigm for some of the individual AoS models, which also happen to be at a larger scale than 40k. That's $30 retail, though, and it's far from difficult to find any GW product at 15-25% less than that. A lot of them are also incorporated into boxed sets at a reasonable price.

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Mantic's fantasy models look like hot garbage, but they're a fair amount cheaper than GW. Apparany that wasn't sustainable, though, and they've had to hike their prices recently.

$30 is the new pricing paradigm for some of the individual AoS models, which also happen to be at a larger scale than 40k. That's $30 retail, though, and it's far from difficult to find any GW product at 15-25% less than that. A lot of them are also incorporated into boxed sets at a reasonable price.

It's OK for Mantic's models to be garbage as long as their rules are better. They actually have units that move in formation. That's a pure win than Age of S%$mar. You can use any models, including your old GW ones or even new GW ones (if you can afford them).

$30 for a new pricing for a single model is just insane. I remember when it was just $15 a blister for a hero figure. 15-25% isn't much when you are hitting those prices. Also, I like to support the local store.

A lot of individual figures are still in the $20 range for 40k, minus some of the newer, bigger stuff. The retail discount is pretty much the norm in most B&M stores.

AoS' rules are actually just fine now, especially with the General's Handbook (of which we're slated to get a new version in the next few months). It's really just people boo-hooing over the loss of R&F that can't see AoS in a positive light.

4 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

AoS' rules are actually just fine now, especially with the General's Handbook (of which we're slated to get a new version in the next few months). It's really just people boo-hooing over the loss of R&F that can't see AoS in a positive light.

I think you minimize the change. The game was about units maneuvering on a battlefield in an army setting. Now, they are just gangs that move around the table. Doesn't matter about facing or anything. It's not just "people boo-hooing over the loss of Rank and File", it's changing the whole concept of the game.

Well Mantic always wanted to make armies cheap even before they had rules so comprimises had to be made, details cost money, but they do have some models that look quite good and their quality/detaisl seem to go up here and there.

And yes GW has cheap Start Collecting Boxes and has recently made some Stormcast into 10 man boxes that are quit a bit cheaper than 2 old 5 man boxes but many things are still expensive, i know the price also depends on the amount of units sold but some charactermodels are really expensive and then sometimes you wonder about the prices, a Tau Riptide costs 85$ and a Ghostkeel costs 75$, I only own a Riptide but judging from many pictures (like this , Riptide is the second biggest and the next one is the Ghostkeel) he is quite a bit bigger and probably uses more plastic so 70 or 65$ would have been better.

And i never hated AoS, as said I'm thinking about starting but I'm personally more interested in a rank and file game, i have enough skirmish like games.

@thespaceinvader

I think setting Total War in the Old World was more Creative Assemblys decision, maybe they weren't told about Endtimes/AoS. But it's starnge that a Hack&Slay in the Old Wolrd seems to be in the making nad Blood Bowl seems to be set in the Old World too.

You're right, they're two very different games. That's not in dispute; people crying over the loss of R&F does not automatically make AoS bad, though. The new models are great, and the rules are just fine for what they are. Is it everyone's cup of tea? Certainly not. Is it more popular than WHFB was at the end? The sales figures would seem to bear that out. It's a good move for just about everyone who didn't give a fig about pushing around trays, and bemoaning the loss of an outdated fantasy game doesn't do much to advance a conversation about AoS.

You are right but the initial question was:

Quote

I'm looking for a easy to digest explanation of the age of sigmar .....Thing.

Why is it bad ? Good? What's all the fuss around it?

And part of the fuss around is the old WHF players beeing unhappy about the loss of their game so while this does not advance AOS/or conversation abou it, it really fits in here to explain what happened and were some of the anger/rage stems from.

1 hour ago, Iceeagle85 said:

And i never hated AoS, as said I'm thinking about starting but I'm personally more interested in a rank and file game, i have enough skirmish like games.

There are a few options for rank and file games. There is the fan made 9th Age, which is pretty pure WHFB, but just not official. There is also Kings of War, which I hear good things from by those who play it. I like the idea that it deals with cohesive units and doesn't remove models from the back when they die. They suffer enough punishment until they eventually break.

1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

You're right, they're two very different games. That's not in dispute; people crying over the loss of R&F does not automatically make AoS bad, though. The new models are great, and the rules are just fine for what they are. Is it everyone's cup of tea? Certainly not. Is it more popular than WHFB was at the end? The sales figures would seem to bear that out. It's a good move for just about everyone who didn't give a fig about pushing around trays, and bemoaning the loss of an outdated fantasy game doesn't do much to advance a conversation about AoS.

I can tell from this post that you obviously favor AoS as opposed to WHFB. The comment about "outdated fantasy game" is a little strange, though. It was often updated through the years and I feel that 8th Ed was one of the best editions I played. It was more the army books that were terrible. The Core rules were pretty good. I just don't understand the "outdated" part.

Your comments about people "crying" over the lose of a game that they spent decades playing and thousands of dollars buying, customizing, and painting each individual mini that now has no game...rings pretty condescending. I've spent 13 years playing WHFB and am told I have the largest painted Greenskin army in my state. I wasn't the person playing the longest by far and I didn't have the largest number of painted minis in my local area, either. To suddenly delete the game and bring in some poor substitute version that doesn't even allow me to use the same minis without rebasing all of them (no small feet - that also ruins all the previous work) is clearly a crappy thing to do.

The number of sales would probably need to be investigated before I would believe them. Are the sales higher because the sales of 40k are down? That wouldn't really mean much. Also, a new version usually spikes sales a bit around buying the new Core rules that are required. Let's see how those sales hold up.

Personally, I see GW doing a HUGE disservice to loyal customers. It's pretty unforgivable in my book. I doubt I'll ever buy another GW product again.

To be fair you really didn't need to rebase, yes it might loof stuoid to have round bases fight agains square ones or even have both in one army but it was legal, yes it made measuring from base to base slightly wonky but it worked.

I know of Kings of War, had the rulebook back when it was free, and i like both of their undead ranges, I have heard of 9th Age but never taken a look at it, might have to do it at some point.