Thug Life and Hard Counters

By Astech, in X-Wing

The YNOT squadron builder ( here ) is an excellent way to practice against either oneself or the inbuilt A.I. online. Playing against myself gets old though, so the only real option is the AI. The AI has quite a few problems:

- Glitterstim is always used on turn 1.
- Crack shot is always used whether it's useful or not.
- Often sub-par movement (4k into a bump when moving first...), or downright stupid plays (3 bank the wrong way off the map).
- A general strategy of getting as close as possible to the target, rather than focusing or other more beneficial actions.

That said, there are a few builds that the A.I. makes excellent use of. A TIE swarm is one, because the AI blocks quite well. Even Biggs + Co can be done fairly decently, but nothing compares to Thug Life (4 x TLT Y-wings with Unhinges Astromech). The AI knows when to close range and when to flee with them, and does a good job of focusing fire on tokenless or out of position targets. In fact, it plays thug life near-perfectly (occasional unnecessary K-turns stop it from being perfect).

This brings up a good question - do different lists have a different skill level?

Of course, the answer is yes, but for a lot of reasons:
- Aces are hard to fly because a single mistake will often kill them.
- Swarms are hard to fly because you have to get aces to make mistakes.
- Ordinance is hard because ordinance.
- And so on.

Yet Thug Life doesn't require much skill at all - move with a 3 speed maneuver most likely to get you outside of range 1 of all enemy ships, then focus. Rinse and repeat. It's this simplicity that makes Thug Life both so deadly and so vulnerable to counters. Autothrusters is incredibly strong, as are AGI 3 jousters like Defenders and IG-2000 (AGI 3 jouster with autothrusters!).

The Interesting Part

It's a list that is notorious for easy wins and is berated for the "NPE" it creates. I personally love testing out tournament lists against it on YNOT, because if a list can't beat Thug Life it's going to have a lot of troubles in the world. I recently started trying to beat it with the fewest points possible (i.e. 100 points of thug life VS minimum number of points on my side).

It's very easy with 100 points to build a hard counter, but with 50 it becomes far more difficult. I've done it with IG-88 A and Whisper at that point range.
The lowest points I've tried was a 35 point Jake Farrel, and I killed 2 Ys and had 2 nearly dead left, but couldn't close it before the dice failed.
Update : I've done it with a 39 point Guri! Link is here to the playthrough.

I'm interested to see what other players can do against such a notorious "no skill" list. So, how few points can you use to defeat thug life?

Edited by Astech

Quad TLTs faded out when Triple U-Boats became a thing.

Triple U-Boats (now with attanni) are still a thing.

Y-wings are currently the 7th best ship in the game. While JM5Ks are more popular they are being nerfed like a 10 year old's party right now. They're a respectable build that has won at least one 2017 regional.

I think that X-wing has always had an element of rock-paper-scissors to it and any build that spams a certain ship type is more vulnerable to this effect. TLTs were designed to provide reliable damage against big ships. 4 TLTs can burn down a VCX in 2 turns pretty reliably while the VCX will only kill a single Y-wing in that time if it is very lucky (OK there is the other half of the fleet but you get my drift.

TLTs are very vulnerable though to aces, particularly with auto-thrusters.

4 x Tie Bombers that fire before the Thugs will win that match up.

5 Scimitars with Unguided Rockets and Lightweight Frame will be a close-run thing. I almost called the match-up "interesting" but it's really just space-yahtzee. That's been my complaint about TLT from day one.

Palp Defender and U-boa... oh wait, sorry :P

A well-flown Corran could probably solo...but please. Any pilot worth his salt can beat 4 TLT with a pair of B-Wings.

35 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

A well-flown Corran could probably solo...but please. Any pilot worth his salt can beat 4 TLT with a pair of B-Wings.

Quad TLT won a 108 person Regional a few weeks ago:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2665

It appears that he went 5-1, and then beat:

Top 16: Poe / Miranda

Top 8: Parattanni (pre-nerf)

Top 4: Biggs / Kanan+Zeb

Final table: Han / Jake

I was being facetious about the B-Wings, if that wasn't clear :D . That's a pretty impressive win, though. Paratanni in particular—I'd think with that list's speed and PS advantage it would be a pretty tough matchup. But I guess TLTs are pretty good at chewing through Manaroo and Asajj, and they'd mess Fenn up if they got him in arc at Range 2.

There is some nuance to Thug Life.

'Oh yeah I have these green 3 turns, maybe I can try to get Autothruster ships INTO my arc at range 2? Inconthievable!'

Instead most people play them like they fart lasers while unceremoniously running away.

The thing with TLTs is that yes, Auto-thrusters are a hard counter, but that only really helps with ships like Palp Aces - which have both the number of dice and the modifications to deal with the number of hits.

Ships with thrusters and less that 3 agility are DOA though. Poe, even with thrusters and ability, is still not rolling enough dice to avoid 3 hits thanks to secondary weapon. 2 Y-wings a turn are going to be able to shoot him and I'd expect enough hits to mitigate his regen faster than he can use it.

1 hour ago, The Penguin UK said:

The thing with TLTs is that yes, Auto-thrusters are a hard counter, but that only really helps with ships like Palp Aces - which have both the number of dice and the modifications to deal with the number of hits.

Ships with thrusters and less that 3 agility are DOA though. Poe, even with thrusters and ability, is still not rolling enough dice to avoid 3 hits thanks to secondary weapon. 2 Y-wings a turn are going to be able to shoot him and I'd expect enough hits to mitigate his regen faster than he can use it.

This, surprisingly, is not necessarily true. There are many stories of Poe beating multiple TLTs. I've personally used Poe to easily drop two TLT Ys.

If Poe can maintain Autothrusters and has a Focus token his odds of double evading are extremely high, if my math is correct nearly 80%. A TLT with a F or TL still has less than a 50% chance of getting through that. Most TLT platforms only have the F or TL for one of their shots.

even if he loses two shields and regens one... he's probably making a net gain out of it be positioning into dead zone or flat out laying damage on.

1 hour ago, Skargoth said:

This, surprisingly, is not necessarily true. There are many stories of Poe beating multiple TLT s. I've personally used Poe to easily drop two TLT Ys.

If Poe can maintain Autothrusters and has a Focus token his odds of double evading are extremely high, if my math is correct nearly 80%. A TLT with a F or TL still has less than a 50% chance of getting through that. Most TLT platforms only have the F or TL for one of their shots.

even if he loses two shields and regens one... he's probably making a net gain out of it be positioning into dead zone or flat out laying damage on.

You'll find that there are no stories of Poe beating 4 TLTs. It's very easy to fly them in such a way that Poe can only avoid 1 TLT each turn. He takes around 3 turns to kill a Y-wing, assuming he can keep his arc the right way without using a boost action. A PS4 B-wing can beat 2 TLTs - dodge one and kill the other, then stay in the blind spot of the last. It's specifically four of them that is so difficult.

Quote

A well-flown Corran could probably solo...but please. Any pilot worth his salt can beat 4 TLT with a pair of B-Wings.

Corran truly sucks against Thug Life. He can defend against the first two, maybe 3 shots reliably, but the fourth through sixth will start piling on the damage. As for the B-wings, I could see - maybe - two fully loaded aces plausibly doing it, probably Nera with Ion torpedoes and Keyan with HLC + Opportunist + Tactician. But as I've said before, I've beaten 100pt Thug Life with only 39 pt Guri to start with.

All the theoretical discussions are cool, but you can slap together a pilot on the squadron builder and test it out against the AI immediately to find out how good it is.

14 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:

Quad TLT won a 108 person Regional a few weeks ago:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2665

It appears that he went 5-1, and then beat:

Top 16: Poe / Miranda

Top 8: Parattanni (pre-nerf)

Top 4: Biggs / Kanan+Zeb

Final table: Han / Jake

Can't wait for Imperial players to finally get to taste some quad TLT deliciousness.

I just played a tourney at my FLGS, and wouldn't you know it - a variation of Thug life took an undisputed first place.

One of our more casual players brought a scum list with:

2 TLT Thugs w/ Unhinged.
1 TLT PS4 w/ Overclocked
Kavil TLT w/ Painbot
Cartel Spacer - PS2 Scyk

125 points, by the way (with an epic ship as one obstacle. Great setup.).

I played 2 snap+juke GSP A-wings backed up by 2 FCS B-wngs and Shara Bey rocking weapons engineer, M9-G8 and VI. I'd just like to say the snap+juke A-wings are an outstanding ship. As it happens, both were killed before they did anything consequential during the first combat serious round (8 shots, 7 damage, most of them unmodified with an obstructed shot...). Then I had 3 agility 1 ships against TLTs, and i had done a total of 4 damage...

I ended up resigning the game after the next turn, during which my opponent skillfully avoided hat arcs of both my B-wings and killed Shara. We played to completion for fun, and a B-wing dropped each turn for two turns and that was it. I did a grand total of six damage and had 0 MoV. Not the best start to the day.

That same list went on to beat 2 defender lists. The X7s took a 0-125 loss, and a list with 2 TIE/Ds and Whisper (and an academy TIE) narrowly lost during a final turn hail Mary TLT shot from the Y-wing to kill whisper. The thugs also demolished a B-wing and Biggs swarm, which is to be expected ( and I thought I had a hard counter).

The thugs went 4-0, while TIE/d defenders placed second and I placed third. Hot dice had something to do with the Thug's victory, no doubt about it, and my dice were average or so, so I couldn't compete. I managed to beat post-ner X7 defenders with flipping A-wings though, which was a victory unto itself, and my swarm beat up a HLC B-wing+Biggs swarm, so I am happy.

Lesson Learned - To beat Thug Life (and its variations), one must not balk from the joust. Instead, carpe diem and aim to kill off a ship per turn until the victor is decided. At least with joust-type lists. Also, put autothrusters on your A-wings - they're flipping awesome...

On 23/03/2017 at 4:30 PM, MajorJuggler said:

Quad TLT won a 108 person Regional a few weeks ago:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2665

It appears that he went 5-1, and then beat:

Top 16: Poe / Miranda

Top 8: Parattanni (pre-nerf)

Top 4: Biggs / Kanan+Zeb

Final table: Han / Jake

Just to clarify the skill involved; the final table was against Han and Jake run by Jack Mooney (worlds top 4 2016)!