Okay so the flechette torpedoes have been out for a while now. How have they played for everyone and have they been consistent?

They work well if you have initiative. Takes even scatter aces out of play at times. I only see them on raiders though.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

They work well if you have initiative. Takes even scatter aces out of play at times. I only see them on raiders though.

Yup. No other viable platform for them at the moment.

I expect the Torpedo Hammerhead to remedy this situation, which will be... just delightful.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

They work well if you have initiative. Takes even scatter aces out of play at times. I only see them on raiders though.

That's an understatement. In my experience, with initiative they are devastating. Impetuous with Kallus, OE, and Flechettes can ruin Rieekan and Friends for rounds at a time. Tag in another Raider and you can lock down most bomber balls for extended periods. The trick is getting the Raiders in position without getting them blown away, either by ships or their victims.

... Actually, I've used them to [mediocre] effect on the Demo GSD with Kallus chucking out the black. (Surprise, I've done tons and tons .. really about 20-30 games... on antisquadron research).

Here's the deal: Flechette torps are really great, and they proc to really tie up a big ball of squads very consistently with OE and Kallus (maybe adding a CF).

Downside is that you generally start really taking the squads out outright with GSD2 Kallus Demo and around 6 squadrons. The problem is you really start looking points and value for this: 4 Ints + Howl + Jmk is 72 points, and the Demo kitted out this way loses BOTH Crew slot (SFO or IO) and its torpedo slot (APT). You really start losing a huge amount of firepower. And the ship itself starts getting very high in cost.

You could reduce the squad count slightly, but then you really start walking a tight rope of being able to consistently beat mass 134 squadrons.

I will say though: GSD2 Demo Kallus OE Flechette Torps (Optional add Engine Techs) is a ridiculously powerful squadron wiper. Sadly, its not good against true ship lists, and you will likely suffer heavily from thinking you have a good Demo and find you really only have an overpriced GSD with one less black die, and ONLY OE, no other additives.

One of my example lists was something like:

Moffy J
VSD1 SFO FC ExpHangarBay
VSD1 SFO OE DTT
GSD2 Demo Kallus OE FT
Goz
Goz
4 ints, howl, jmk, rhymer, jonus.

Even with Jonus, This GSD only clocks for its own, not over its weight, and the VSDs are not the most strongest ships in the game, you only have 3 ships of firepower.

Basically, it was a AA gimp list, it could win vs mass squadrons, but it had a generally rougher time vs everything else. This is case in point for a crap list for a varied field.

Very good upgrade, must have ininitiative to work, raider is really the only ship you want it on so learning to fly a raider is a must to use effectively. I would recommend bringing a minimum of two ties flechette torpedos don't take away the need for a fighter screen, but you can get away with a very small very cheap fighter screen with them. While also gaining an activation from the raider, and a decent flotilla Hunter with OE and con fire to fish for an accuracy, so you don't give up ship fire power for air superiority Fighters.

I've found that in cerain games they can be remarkably effective.

My favorite at the moment is the Hyperspace Assault Kallus/Impetuous/OrdEx Raider with 1-2 Defenders. With smart deployment you can stop up an entire wing of fighters and leave squadrons in position to attack.

Had a CC game the other night where I basically turned off all my opponent's squadrons, then used Defenders to jump in and grind away several Escort+Biggs squadrons so that by the end he'd lost all his escorts but Luke, who had flown off initially to attack a Star Destroyer. Instead of a complete route, most of the ships and several squadrons "escaped" so that I don't have to unscarr everything ahead of the AOO and can max out my fleet size.

5 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

I've found that in cerain games they can be remarkably effective.

My favorite at the moment is the Hyperspace Assault Kallus/Impetuous/OrdEx Raider with 1-2 Defenders. With smart deployment you can stop up an entire wing of fighters and leave squadrons in position to attack.

Had a CC game the other night where I basically turned off all my opponent's squadrons, then used Defenders to jump in and grind away several Escort+Biggs squadrons so that by the end he'd lost all his escorts but Luke, who had flown off initially to attack a Star Destroyer. Instead of a complete route, most of the ships and several squadrons "escaped" so that I don't have to unscarr everything ahead of the AOO and can max out my fleet size.

Man, I'd love to see a pic of that. I've rarely ever gotten to even play Hyperspace assault also, since the Blue is usually an easy pick.

1 hour ago, GiledPallaeon said:

That's an understatement. In my experience, with initiative they are devastating. Impetuous with Kallus, OE, and Flechettes can ruin Rieekan and Friends for rounds at a time. Tag in another Raider and you can lock down most bomber balls for extended periods. The trick is getting the Raiders in position without getting them blown away, either by ships or their victims.

Ozzel can get you in, and keep you in range of those pesky Aces!

10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Man, I'd love to see a pic of that. I've rarely ever gotten to even play Hyperspace assault also, since the Blue is usually an easy pick.

You have to choose carefully. In CC it helps that some objectives are just awful for Rebel builds and any win counts as a full win. So even a single extra point earned by something like Dangerous Territory or Capture the VIP can be the difference between victory and defeat.

6 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

You have to choose carefully. In CC it helps that some objectives are just awful for Rebel builds and any win counts as a full win. So even a single extra point earned by something like Dangerous Territory or Capture the VIP can be the difference between victory and defeat.

I'd still love to see how you managed the squadron trap. Though I think I see how: You pick a good spot to Hyper in, dropping the two defenders in to lock things up, and then also lock them with Impetuous. If you aren't wiped out utterly through the 2 defenders and the raider in one activation, you are in position to fire from the Raider on everything with FT and 3 black dice. (vs aces 3 black dice).

Very clever use of Defenders.

Sadly, I don't think its as easy without Hyperspace assault, which the opponent is then unlikely to take again.

Again, this is made much easier in CC. That said, I might keep it if there is a way to make it the only desirable option. For example, if the alternative is Dangerous Territory with the right fleet setup that could easily turn into an 80 point lead without a shot being fired.

Super awesome upgrade for raiders, put oe on it and it gets really fun. Works best if you can drop it on an activated swarm towards the end of activations and then get it shooting and out of the way immediately on the next turn.

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

snip

Well i don't have a pic of that game but here is my CC game...using Attacking to full effect on x2 the Raider/Flachette/OE/Title setup. Shut down 7-8 squadrons in range. Had to HS retreat after this. Raider didn't clear the guppy and was popped by the MC30, the other died after a miraclous survival against a H9 Side Arc wiff...or lived but got a structural damage. Either way both died due to a structural damage on 3 damage with a crit to hull Never got a game with Montefert/Kallus, lost the CC after this Round.

I'm starting to take 1 in my Imp fleets just to threaten squads, not to actually hunt them down. At 55, it's 1/8th of my fleet, 7 dice on a double arc+CF, and an activation. I tend to run them tight with my fleet, normally in the middle so I can activate last/first; get them in position and then activate all the squads next round. This is theoretically how I'd play it. I only have 3 games with it and 1 of them had over 40 points of squads, and in that game it was trying to kill QS.

This is the fleet I have it in, which is also the same fleet I'm using for the Vassal Freshman Tourny. I'm worried about the amount of bomber lists all playing, so this is the best way to test my theory.

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 391/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Chart Officer ( 2 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 85 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Insidious ( 3 points)
- Chart Officer ( 2 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 78 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 68 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Instigator ( 4 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Flechette Torpedoes ( 3 points)
= 55 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 48 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

4 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 32 points)

It's worked fine for me, but it's very conditional. Sometimes you just prefer to do damage to the squadron in question, but when you get to tab-lock an ace squadron or even better, Intel squadron, it's pure joy. It helps if you have initiative and out-activate the other guy but those are both things Raiders like anyways.

@Blail Blerg

A separate conversation got me thinking about the wave 2 clonisher list and how the theory behind it worked.

It comes to mind that something similar could function well against a Yavaris + Pelta + B-Wing group with the support of a raider or two with flechette torps.

Here's a rough list outline (387/400):

Gladiator I (90 points)

- Demolisher

- Intel Officer

- APT

- Engine Techs

- Ordnance Experts

3x Raider I (53 points)

- Ordnance Experts

- APTs

Raider I (55 points)

- Instigator

- Flechette Torpedoes

- Ordnance Experts

Gozanti (51 points)

- Admiral Screed

- Comm Net

4x TIE squadrons (32 points)

The point would be to charge in with Instigator and the TIEs at the end of the round. With 6 activations, you can delay and avoid Yavaris or any activated squadrons. With 387, you are going first unless they seriously bid for it.

Maybe even activate 2 squadrons with a command plus token to bring in two TIEs with you. Use your first player squadron activation to bring in the other 2. You haven't killed anything yet, Instigator makes it so that Intel can't move, while the 4 TIEs tie down the the bombers for at least one turn.

First activation of the next round, you strike the fighters with flechette torpedoes, deactivating many of them. Use concentrate fire and screed to make sure that the b wings if any are down.

If you can, ram Yavaris. If you have Demolisher in a position that you can jump in and hit the side of Yavaris, do so. If you've rammed with the raider, and can ram with engine techs, then you just need 6 damage plus APTs to kill it. Rieekan leaves it in play, but the deactivated squadrons help to Meier its power.

It's a lot of moving parts, but you have other options. Drop two more raiders in flanking the squadron ball instead of hitting Yavaris with Demolisher (or do both!). You need precise movements, and maybe you're weak against important archetypes (but I'm not sure - then again, with 4 raiders, you can hunt enough flotillas to bring down activation count against large ship fleets)

Anyways, it's a thought. You could do something similar with an isd2 and instigator, with 3 flotillas, another raider, and 6 TIEs. Haven't worked out those thoughts yet

I've built nearly the exact same list @Onidsen . Its a good idea. You will get a good Demo attack off. However, you will trade 4 ties and the instigator raider for them: namely, free 48 + 32 points. If you don't believe me, just try it. 9 squadrons on the end of the turn. It definitely could work. But that involves losing out on your demo first and last activation. Or saving that for a later turn. I actually like that plan quite a lot. Lemme practice and test it and see how it works. Do you want to test with me?

12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I've built nearly the exact same list @Onidsen . Its a good idea. You will get a good Demo attack off. However, you will trade 4 ties and the instigator raider for them: namely, free 48 + 32 points. If you don't believe me, just try it. 9 squadrons on the end of the turn. It definitely could work. But that involves losing out on your demo first and last activation. Or saving that for a later turn. I actually like that plan quite a lot. Lemme practice and test it and see how it works. Do you want to test with me?

How are you giving away the TIEs and a Raider? Why not activate them first and run away with them? Demo doesn't need to go first EVERY turn...

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

How are you giving away the TIEs and a Raider? Why not activate them first and run away with them? Demo doesn't need to go first EVERY turn...

Well, the ties aren't getting away. They're still engaged. 2nd, squadron phase attack at the end of the round will likely do them in.

The Raider is plausible for getting away. Its just that you're missing out on that nice first and last.

To counter your counter: The squadron player avoids letting ALL of his fighters ball up (This is already great news). Then double FCTs them into range to double tap you with Yavaris, even with not the most effective fighters. (Getting x2 tapped by Wedge, Norra, and something else still hurts).

Or, other option, he chooses a slightly different target, and takes that out instead.

But really, I do like this plan. It has a lot of backup plans: Instigator. Maybe I think Ciena and Valen Rudor would be better choices. If I had the room, id grab 2 defenders too, but we know how we don have points.

I mean, if it's a question of how to use the TIEs effectively, I wrote a post about it. If you're letting him FCT into range, it sounds like you're either throwing them away, or not bringing enough of a screen to effectively protect yourself.

http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/03/squadrons-encyclopedia-5-using-sfc.html?m=1

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

I mean, if it's a question of how to use the TIEs effectively, I wrote a post about it. If you're letting him FCT into range, it sounds like you're either throwing them away, or not bringing enough of a screen to effectively protect yourself.

http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/03/squadrons-encyclopedia-5-using-sfc.html?m=1

Something that I think isn't being appropriately considered there is that the double FCT move means "don't let him get into range" means you CANNOT ATTACK.

The Yav/Pelta FCT double tap means that simply, there is no way to approach without getting Yav'd, unless you're running significantly more activations than your opponent AND a significant fighter screen.

Let's assume you have a super squadron activation, maximized ISD1 6 squadron activation with something disgusting such as Vader, Marek, Jendon, Mauler, Valen and Soontir Fel.

Against a Rieekan ball, this will be nearly useless and you WILL lose at least half of those squads, likely starting with Vader and Jendon.

Against a non-Rieekan, things are easier but you still have to jump right into the most powerful part of your opponents fleet. And that opponent will get multiple double taps to wreck your squadrons back. If they're running Biggs X-Wings, you might not actually kill anything to begin with.

That super specialized anti squadron ball listed above costs 108 points. And it is entirely possible that it won't kill anything based on enemy composition. And then that enemy gets to attack back. Wedge can triple-tap in that fight with a well placed Adar Talon, and is almost certain to not die in the first pass.

Basically, half your fighter screen is gone and the enemy still gets to attack *after a single round of combat.*

The problem is not killing stuff, it's surviving the retaliation. Imperial ships and squads cannot engage the Yav/Pelta double-FCT because that combo is dependent on making the act of engaging itself a boon in the enemy favor.

I think technically there are angle possible, but you have to delay all movements and control perfectly. Whereas the squad player gets a much easier time, just pushing and threatening one flank.

Also, yes, you gotta actually try and play vs these Rieekan balls.

also geek19, this is literally onidsen's list. Not mine. I think you could try and reread everything, and reconsider the nuances of the situation, instead of assuming we don't know how to play, when all we've been doing is practicing against this list for months and for 20+ games within the last few months. In fact, I'd reckon that cactus and I are probably beyond most people in terms of sheer numbers of games played in real game or in testing vs squadrons.

24 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think technically there are angle possible, but you have to delay all movements and control perfectly. Whereas the squad player gets a much easier time, just pushing and threatening one flank.

Also, yes, you gotta actually try and play vs these Rieekan balls.

also geek19, this is literally onidsen's list. Not mine. I think you could try and reread everything, and reconsider the nuances of the situation, instead of assuming we don't know how to play, when all we've been doing is practicing against this list for months and for 20+ games within the last few months. In fact, I'd reckon that cactus and I are probably beyond most people in terms of sheer numbers of games played in real game or in testing vs squadrons.

I'll politely disagree due to the fracturing of our local community by the commute situation, though I've played against some significant squadron fleets a few times. Players down in your area have been dealing with some of these particular issues plenty enough.

I can say that I've worked with some other players who have been dealing with these FCT stacking fleets and one of the players running this, and it functions in a way that nullifies most generic squadron advice. It really needs to be played against to fully understand what's going on. At least for Imperials there are significant issues in engaging this list under the current rules.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I've built nearly the exact same list @Onidsen . Its a good idea. You will get a good Demo attack off. However, you will trade 4 ties and the instigator raider for them: namely, free 48 + 32 points. If you don't believe me, just try it. 9 squadrons on the end of the turn. It definitely could work. But that involves losing out on your demo first and last activation. Or saving that for a later turn. I actually like that plan quite a lot. Lemme practice and test it and see how it works. Do you want to test with me?

I'd love to try it, but time is not on my side at the moment - I've got to get my senior project ready for graduation in May. Maybe in a couple months I'll be more free. Also, just randomly, where are you at?

The TIEs are meant to be sacrificial. 2 arcs from instigator can be a good fraction of the ball disabled (though placement is everything, and I'll be frank - I'm a mediocre player at best, and have nowhere near the experience or the skill to play a high-risk MSU list like that), and 4 TIEs was my best intuition on how to keep the b wings off of instigator. Vale and Ciena could be a better choice, honestly. They'd last as long or longer, which is the only relevant metric. Obstruction on Ciena is helpful, but she'll die the death of a thousand cuts. You lose a deployment, but maybe gain overall. What I wouldn't give for Tycho and Shara Bey in this list.

I'd plan something like this - end of turn 2, jump instigator into the squadron ball with TIEs. Turn 3, activate instigator first, try to disable all of the b wings first, followed by wedge and norra. Demolisher goes first last on turn 3 - 4. Probably. It is possible to kill Yavaris with over shot from demo plus 2 rams. That's end of t2 stuff there. Side arc concentrate fire (with nav token) is 5 rerolled blacks, and you only need 6 damage. Average is 6.25 before screed. Trigger APTs, they brace. 3 damage to the side, which is 2 to the hull plus the apt crit. An engine techs double - ram (off of your t1 nav token) finishes it off after it's activated, so Rieekan doesn't matter. Or a ram from instigator as it bugs out of the furball. That frees demo up to strike at the pelta the next turn.