Imperials: tie advanced and Defenders. The rest are too slow( firesprays, aggresors), too specialized (fighters, interceptors, bombers, jumpmasters) or Heavy (decimators, yv-666s).

Don't really play rebels but x wings a wings and e wings.

22 minutes ago, Forresto said:

The E-Wing has snipe and bomber...just saying. A red bomber die ain't great but its something.

Its the 15 point tag that is keeping folks away. 2 points to swap escort/snipe and add 1 speed. To make it really worth it you need to get value out of snipe and that trends them towards antisquadron.

But ignoring cost, you are right the Ewing should be considered.

4 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Its the 15 point tag that is keeping folks away. 2 points to swap escort/snipe and add 1 speed. To make it really worth it you need to get value out of snipe and that trends them towards antisquadron.

But ignoring cost, you are right the Ewing should be considered.

One day I will make a build that focuses on E-Wings and Y-Wings. It seems like a really fun concept. Toryn, BCC, FC and FCT. Popping squads at range 2 and then bombing ships.

The red bomber die is not very reliable without BCC, that's why I still like the AWing best as overall squadron for the Rebels, especially for only 11 points.

The Defender has the edge for me on the Imperial side. 2blue2black is propably the best anti squad dice, and the blue bomber die is exactly the same as the black non-bomber, die plus crits. They are well worth the 16 points in my opinion.

Sloane Interceptors.

#drops mick

31 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Sloane Interceptors.

#drops mick

Correct answer.

Mick dropped.

E wings and Defenders.

The thing about generalists, is they are generalists, so people here rail about them not being great at anything, welcome to generalists :D. Decimators are a runner up (and my personal preference as they are fun).

Interceptors are hardly generalists, they are anti-squad ships. Advanced? Garbage in general (I'm not sold on escort overall). But if interceptors can be generalists, so can tie bombers.

4 minutes ago, Darthain said:

E wings and Defenders.

The thing about generalists, is they are generalists, so people here rail about them not being great at anything, welcome to generalists :D. Decimators are a runner up (and my personal preference as they are fun).

Interceptors are hardly generalists, they are anti-squad ships. Advanced? Garbage in general (I'm not sold on escort overall). But if interceptors can be generalists, so can tie bombers.

Interceptors are not generalists.

Sloane Interceptors are.

And Ciena is the best of them in terms of general usability.

25 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Interceptors are not generalists.

Sloane Interceptors are.

And Ciena is the best of them in terms of general usability.

A Sloane interceptor isn't a squadron though, it is a combination of cards involving a squadron.

Do people really value a single blue bomber dice? Why?

5 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Do people really value a single blue bomber dice? Why?

Because it gives yor fighter a 75% chance of dealing ship damage it that becomes the best option for it, and allows it to deal critical effects.

Edit: Also with Sloane will have a 100 percent positive outcome.

3 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Do people really value a single blue bomber dice? Why?

It is just the same damage as a black non-bomber die, which is not great, but decent.

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Do people really value a single blue bomber dice? Why?

It allows good mop up once you are done with the squad side, heck even single blue ship die (non-bomber) can be an issue. Any attack is better than nothing.

2 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Because it gives yor fighter a 75% chance of dealing ship damage it that becomes the best option for it, and allows it to deal critical effects.

But it isnt a black bomber die. And it sure isnt a blue and black bomber combo

I get that its better than non bomber blue. But that doesnt make it good! Were talking about multi role here, and for 16pts its a truly awful anti ship unit.

YT2400 is better!

3 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

But it isnt a black bomber die. And it sure isnt a blue and black bomber combo

I get that its better than non bomber blue. But that doesnt make it good! Were talking about multi role here, and for 16pts its a truly awful anti ship unit.

YT2400 is better!

1. The Anti ship from a defender is better, because while the damage stays the same the defender can resolve crits

2. The defender is faster

3. The defender is better anti squadron

4. Activated squadrons beat rogue squadrons

5. All of this is academic, because its not like you can chose between the two

Edit: Also, its not like anyone is sitting here building a fleet with defenders going "Plan A- Defender bombing runs". Its just that they wont embarass themselves if they wind up forced to pivot by the dictates of the game state.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

But it isnt a black bomber die. And it sure isnt a blue and black bomber combo

I get that its better than non bomber blue. But that doesnt make it good! Were talking about multi role here, and for 16pts its a truly awful anti ship unit.

YT2400 is better!

The non-bomber black die is exactly the same damage as the blue bomber die! Your YT 2400 has the same anti ship damage, but cannot do face up cards.

I'm with Gink on this. YT-2400 is better than a Defender if we only consider the squad and carrier, since squads typically get pushed.

Once the carrier dies, the YT can still contribute to the game, instead of waiting for a squad to engage it. YT just goes for it.

And the YT is better at killing aces because it has a higher chance of getting an Acc. Sure, slightly less damage on average, but they both min at 0 and max at 4.

Speed difference is arbitrary. How often do you actually utilize that speed 5? Every round? Defenders need a carrier for their full potential. You can't go zipping off at speed 5 willy-nilly because you'll move outside activation range. YT doesn't care, and they tend to always use their full range of speed so they can chase ships.

Defenders do benefit from BCC which can also act as its carrier, but that defeats the purpose of this exercise. YTs lose value if they need to be pushed by a carrier, so the Defender wins that.

I'd also place some value in what Rogue can do in the squad phase. Much like having 6 activations and using Demo to last/first tap, a Rogue squad can see the state of the board and make the best decision on where to engage.

8 YTs do not need a carrier. 8 Defenders do, so that is a huge point sink.

I think for an activated squad, the Defender is the best for Imps. Otherwise I might say the Aggressor is just as good. Counter 1, 5 hull and black anti-ship. Speed 3 sucks, but it has Rogue.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I'm with Gink on this. YT-2400 is better than a Defender if we only consider the squad and carrier, since squads typically get pushed.

Once the carrier dies, the YT can still contribute to the game, instead of waiting for a squad to engage it. YT just goes for it.

And the YT is better at killing aces because it has a higher chance of getting an Acc. Sure, slightly less damage on average, but they both min at 0 and max at 4.

Speed difference is arbitrary. How often do you actually utilize that speed 5? Every round? Defenders need a carrier for their full potential. You can't go zipping off at speed 5 willy-nilly because you'll move outside activation range. YT doesn't care, and they tend to always use their full range of speed so they can chase ships.

Defenders do benefit from BCC which can also act as its carrier, but that defeats the purpose of this exercise. YTs lose value if they need to be pushed by a carrier, so the Defender wins that.

I'd also place some value in what Rogue can do in the squad phase. Much like having 6 activations and using Demo to last/first tap, a Rogue squad can see the state of the board and make the best decision on where to engage.

8 YTs do not need a carrier. 8 Defenders do, so that is a huge point sink.

I think for an activated squad, the Defender is the best for Imps. Otherwise I might say the Aggressor is just as good. Counter 1, 5 hull and black anti-ship. Speed 3 sucks, but it has Rogue.

First, I'll direct your attention back to point five of my previous post.

As to your post, point by point;

"Once the carrier dies..." I mean, I guess if you manage to get my carrier this is true. Pretty hyper-conditional point to make though, given the wide variety of ways to get a command to a squadron, and of course assumes the speed five defender somehow is unengaged without having already extracted value some three+ turns into the game.

You said the speed difference is "arbitrary". I think you meant to write "an instance where more is objectively better". 4 is not better then 5. 5 means you can alpha pretty much everything. 4 means you get alpha'd by five. If I use it once, and by doing so i kill a few of your speed 4 squadrons, then i dont care thay I only used the full five once. I've already leveraged my advantage.

8 YTs, you are are right, dont need a carrier. But lets assume the person bringing the 8 defenders isnt completely new to the game or math, and brought the requisite number of commands. Who is going to win the squadron fight? I was going to leave that open ended but Gink is here and hes gonna flak me with sensor teams or something, so I'll tell you its the defenders. Defenders that can/will alpha you because;

a) they are activated squadrons

and

b) they are faster. And as we learned earlier, faster is better than slower.

I will cede the yts are better against scatter aces, bossk and hera. Redundant brace aces are going to die marginally faster against defenders, probably. I mean, you still gotta roll the dice. But the odds are better. Defenders remain better agaisnt generics.

Agressors are not as good as defenders outside of a perhaps some extremely niche builds. Dropping speed by 2, hull by 1, 2 black to blue AS and bomber for rogue/counter-1 is an awful trade. If they had counter 2 or speed 4 it would be a conversation. IMO.

As to rogue's value- I think its nice to have a little rogue in your squad ball, but its a reactionary ability. I like to get a couple Rogues in because I think they shine at the end of the squadron phase. But I think you are placing too high a value on it. Thats really a style choice though, and mileage varies.

And again, this is all academic because its not a choice we can actually make in listbuilding.

2 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

4. Activated squadrons beat rogue squadrons

I'm sorry, can you explain this one for me? I see Rogue as a significant advantage - I can activate with a ship, if I need to get that strike in early, but, unlike the non-Rogue squadron, I don't need to.

14 minutes ago, ceejlekabeejle said:

I'm sorry, can you explain this one for me? I see Rogue as a significant advantage - I can activate with a ship, if I need to get that strike in early, but, unlike the non-Rogue squadron, I don't need to.

You're paying points for that ability, though, which inevitably costs you somewhere else. To illustrate this, consider 8 YT-2400's (126pts)--activated or not--and 11 A-wings (121pts). Assuming two skilled players, the A-wings will wreck the YT-2400's while also threatening almost half again the anti-ship damage in a squadronless matchup. Similar results with 10 X-wings (130pts) or 8 TIE Defenders (126pts).

Activated squadrons are just more efficient than rogues. What you gain in rogue is the ability to disregard the squadron activations, which I don't dispute can be valuable in that it allows your ships to disregard squadron commands. The point is there's a trade-off for being released from the tethers of commanding squadrons, and in terms of absolute efficiency, activated squadrons come out ahead.

Agreed @Ardaedhel . But that argument is not valid for Mad. That would be double counting.

You cannot argue that the extra hull and different dice is a plus for the Defender AND argue that being non rogue is a plus too.

16 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Agreed @Ardaedhel . But that argument is not valid for Mad. That would be double counting.

You cannot argue that the extra hull and different dice is a plus for the Defender AND argue that being non rogue is a plus too.

I'm arguing that if you are sitting back on your heels to get value from rogue with a slower fighter you are gonna get alpha'd. And that remains a valid argument.

It took me a minute to decipher your point tho. My first reply was "of course I can" before I realized you meant that those dice and hull are the trade off from rogue.

25 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Agreed @Ardaedhel . But that argument is not valid for Mad. That would be double counting.

You cannot argue that the extra hull and different dice is a plus for the Defender AND argue that being non rogue is a plus too.

Ah, I see your point: I framed my explanation in response to the wrong quote, my apologies. I am, as always, not incorrect ; I just addressed the wrong situation.

If I follow Mad's thoughts (correct me if I'm wrong, @Madaghmire ), the salient point there is that a squadron activated by a ship is always better than one activated in the squadron phase as a rogue. Which is true in a very broad sense, all else being equal--specifically, speed and squadron count being equal. Both of which go back to the inefficiency of running with the rogue keyword, which I addressed above.

At a certain point--often the squadron phase of turn 1, sometimes that of turn 2 or later--the two squadron lines of equal speed are going to close to a game of brinkmanship, in which neither side can strike the other, but nor can they advance any further because doing so would place their squadrons in striking range of the adversary's squadrons. This obviously is boiled down to the very simplest iteration of a squadron game, with two balls of fighters lined straight up across from each other.

Activated squadrons never lose this standoff if played well, all else being equal (that is, neither side has bombers presenting existential threats to closing ships forcing the interceptor screen into play, or tricky tricks up their sleeves). It boils down to the minimum time between activations for the activated squadrons. They can match the rogues' movement when not attacking in the squadron phase, meaning worst case the activated squadrons can stall with the rogues in the squadron phase and never move into threat range. If the activated squadrons are P2 or outnumber the rogues (remember, likely , given the cost of the keyword), they can drop their last squadrons into threat range of the rogues and then immediately activate them for a quick alpha strike, whereas the rogues can never do so, P1 or P2, outnumbering or no.

Real combat is always messier than this, of course, but that turnaround time is analogous to a ship's last-first, only in the squadron game: the fact that the potential is there forces you to account for it.

edit: ****, ninja'd by Mad who said the same thing in like 1/20 the number of words...

Rebels: Shara Bey, hands down. Really difficult to kill, and pretty much guaranteed to double her points back no matter how you decide to do it.

Imperials: Morna. The big issue with decimaters is that they are heavy. Not only is she not heavy, but shes reliable and regens her brace. Id take six if I could.

If we are talking all fighters including aces it has to be steel, this guy is by far the best multi role fighter/consistent bomber in the game. With jedon and rhymes in support you just cannot understate how much of a threat he is.