Definitely E-Wings, fast, snipe, 5hull and 4 blue antisquad

3 hours ago, Johnnyreb said:

If we are talking all fighters including aces it has to be steel, this guy is by far the best multi role fighter/consistent bomber in the game. With jedon and rhymes in support you just cannot understate how much of a threat he is.

Underrated post. This is very true when you jettison point cost. For my 400 point fleets it is hard for me to find the justification for including him. CC though? FORCE YEAH

8 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

You're paying points for that ability, though, which inevitably costs you somewhere else. To illustrate this, consider 8 YT-2400's (126pts)--activated or not--and 11 A-wings (121pts). Assuming two skilled players, the A-wings will wreck the YT-2400's while also threatening almost half again the anti-ship damage in a squadronless matchup. Similar results with 10 X-wings (130pts) or 8 TIE Defenders (126pts).

Activated squadrons are just more efficient than rogues. What you gain in rogue is the ability to disregard the squadron activations, which I don't dispute can be valuable in that it allows your ships to disregard squadron commands. The point is there's a trade-off for being released from the tethers of commanding squadrons, and in terms of absolute efficiency, activated squadrons come out ahead.

I don't disagree with you Ardaedhel; I'm definitely not saying that Rogue > non-Rogue. I just find it an odd argument that the fact that YT-2400 has Rogue automatically makes it a worse squadron than the Defender. In a straight comparison, I don't see how it's not at least a factor in the YT-2400's favour. As Gink says:

8 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Agreed @Ardaedhel . But that argument is not valid for Mad. That would be double counting.

You cannot argue that the extra hull and different dice is a plus for the Defender AND argue that being non rogue is a plus too.

That being said, I do think that Rogue is an underrated keyword. Any non-Rogue squadron's mental cost has to factor in its carrier, relies on dials and tokens being dedicated to pushing it around, and its range from ships or relay squadrons always has to be factored in. All of that requires investment, in points, or simply in commands that can't be given or dials that can't be used, and if the carrier or relay is lost, or the squadron mis-positioned, it suddenly becomes significantly less useful. A Rogue squadron simply doesn't have that problem; it has the flexibility to activate with or without carriers, can be independent of ships and squadrons, and therefore can generally always be useful. They can be positioned separately to deal with a flanking threat, they can chase down an enemy squadron or ship that has broken away, or they can just be used as part of the main fighter group. Plus they require nothing of your ships of the line, so they can focus on their own fight and survival.

Essentially, well activated non-Rogue fighters are definitely a more efficient way to use your squadrons, but if something goes wrong (which happens to everyone, either because of a mistake or because of the luck of the dice) and they're suddenly contributing significantly less. Rogue squadrons are always flexible, and if we're talking about what makes a good multi-role fighter, flexibility has to be a plus.

However we kind of live in an alpha strike meta and rogues are finding it hard to obtain their value. Currently Regionals data shows that rogues are not taken and also do quite poorly.

Before this gets out of hand.

I will post something in a few hours time on rogues in here.

Short version is, you are all correct in what you say given your individual perspectives

The YV-666 is equally good at everything it does. Clearly the reason we never see it is lack of player skill. The average player is overwhelmed with the options it gives. Nothing chases bwings like yvs. And between highly skilled players, those are the only squadrons worth taking. If you need speed to compensate your lack of skill, stay away. You will see once your meta evolves. To speed up that evolution, keep reminding your oponent of his poor choice of rhymer and bombers. While it may win this game against your 8 yvs, his list will not be ready for the future meta.

9 hours ago, Grey Mage said:

Rebels: Shara Bey, hands down. Really difficult to kill, and pretty much guaranteed to double her points back no matter how you decide to do it.

Agreed, Shara Bey is point for point amazing value. She's pretty much six dice in combat, 3 using crits.

Has anyone mentioned Valen Rudor yet? For 13 points he is excellent without his special ability. Including it I think he is the best value ace in the game. (Admittedly not so great on the bomber front).

Ok Rogues.

Firstly Rogues are not inherently unactivatable. Any poor play that arises due to an overeliance upon rogue is not the squadrons fault but the fleet composition and user.

Second Rogues are not binary. You do not have to take all rogues or all non rogues, this is a common list building misconception.

Thirdly Bringing counter into an argument about rogue vs non rogue is not fair. Counter is extremelly potent anti squad regardless of whether the squadron is rogue or not.

Ok with that out of the way.

The value of rogues depends very much on exactly where in the fight we are.

Initial engagement - When making the first engagement with the enemy, often this is the alpha strike, high number of simultaneous activations allows for enemy assets to be killed without a chance to respond. At this point rogues are overpriced as it is best achieved via activating squadrons. This is true of squadron engagement and bomber engagement.

Subsequent fights - Once the table has been lightened it is much harder for either player to decisevely remove large quantities of enemy threat from the board in a single squadron activation. The value of activations reduces and the value of rogue increases. Upgrades such as Yavaris maintain the value of activations longer.

So this is why when looking at rogue its very important to be clear about when you are referring to. The value of rogue increases throughout the game.

Personally, my gut instinct value is that two rogues in any squadron composition offers me the optimal amount of rogue which shows in the late game.

1 hour ago, Xeletor said:

The YV-666 is equally good at everything it does. Clearly the reason we never see it is lack of player skill.

You jest. But you just nailed the truth....

1 hour ago, GammonLord said:

Has anyone mentioned Valen Rudor yet? For 13 points he is excellent without his special ability. Including it I think he is the best value ace in the game. (Admittedly not so great on the bomber front).

Is he? Paying 13pts for a scatter you will never use and impotency against enemy aces?

I love him to boost allied heavy units, however thats it.

13 points for 3 blacks he can use to happily whittle away generics with impunity is pretty good no? Compare to the Defender or an E Wing which have far less survivability and therefore less damage output. For Valen, anyone is his escort, with his scatter protecting him from dedicated ship anti squad fire.

(as a Reb player I am eternally jealous of him)

Valen has the firepower of a deci, can annihilate generics. He never flies alone, so let him kill gens while his friends go for the uniqes. His firepower can also force his unique opponents to spend their tokens on him, though that is less impressive with sloane on the way. There is still merit to drop him in a sloane swarm though, since his ability enables him to last the fight longer until his generic tie buddies have helped to waste his unique opponents' tokens, then he rolls in for one hit KOs.

Back on Rogues I think they have a very important role in the gamr. I for example love addig Rogue Squadron to my Biggsball. The wholr point is that my ball can jump twice. First with an alpha strike, when I destroy the first wave of enemy fighters. Then the second wave comes in but I jump on them with Rogues and zie them down. In the next turn I don't need a fighter command, I can send in my remaining fighters with normal activation. And I tied up two wave of fighters right where I want them. And that's a one point investment .

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Thirdly Bringing counter into an argument about rogue vs non rogue is not fair. Counter is extremelly potent anti squad regardless of whether the squadron is rogue or not.

Personally, my gut instinct value is that two rogues in any squadron composition offers me the optimal amount of rogue which shows in the late game.

Obviously edited for brevity.

Top point, was anyone talking about counter? Undead and I briefly touched upon it but only as it pertains to the aggressor.

Bottom point, cannot agree hard enough. Couple rogues late game shine on.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Firstly Rogues are not inherently unactivatable. Any poor play that arises due to an overeliance upon rogue is not the squadrons fault but the fleet composition and user.

Second Rogues are not binary. You do not have to take all rogues or all non rogues, this is a common list building misconception.

Personally, my gut instinct value is that two rogues in any squadron composition offers me the optimal amount of rogue which shows in the late game.

Gink nails it for me. Like Mad, very much cut down.

Firstly, I completely agree that Rogues are not unactivatable. People see it as a waste of an activation to use a Rogue, but if it's what is required in the heat of the moment, then you'd be foolish not to. You're paying for the ability to not need to activate, it doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Secondly, I massively agree that a couple of rogues are always a welcome addition, and that they should be used in combination. Two YT-2400s are just so useful, and if I think back to my last game, a pair of Firesprays would have easily enabled me to finish off the Gladiator I hadn't quite managed to kill.

6 hours ago, ceejlekabeejle said:

I don't disagree with you Ardaedhel; I'm definitely not saying that Rogue > non-Rogue. I just find it an odd argument that the fact that YT-2400 has Rogue automatically makes it a worse squadron than the Defender. In a straight comparison, I don't see how it's not at least a factor in the YT-2400's favour. As Gink says:

That being said, I do think that Rogue is an underrated keyword. Any non-Rogue squadron's mental cost has to factor in its carrier, relies on dials and tokens being dedicated to pushing it around, and its range from ships or relay squadrons always has to be factored in. All of that requires investment, in points, or simply in commands that can't be given or dials that can't be used, and if the carrier or relay is lost, or the squadron mis-positioned, it suddenly becomes significantly less useful. A Rogue squadron simply doesn't have that problem; it has the flexibility to activate with or without carriers, can be independent of ships and squadrons, and therefore can generally always be useful. They can be positioned separately to deal with a flanking threat, they can chase down an enemy squadron or ship that has broken away, or they can just be used as part of the main fighter group. Plus they require nothing of your ships of the line, so they can focus on their own fight and survival.

Essentially, well activated non-Rogue fighters are definitely a more efficient way to use your squadrons, but if something goes wrong (which happens to everyone, either because of a mistake or because of the luck of the dice) and they're suddenly contributing significantly less. Rogue squadrons are always flexible, and if we're talking about what makes a good multi-role fighter, flexibility has to be a plus.

Don't be too quick to pigeon hole non-Rogue squads NEED carrier support. I usually activate Tycho, Shara, and at times Blount only once maybe twice in a game through a squadron command. Once they are engaged, I can delay their activation to the squadron phase as they are already where I need them to be...tying up opposing squads so my ships can do their work. No need to waste a squadron command from a ship. If I am first player they are STILL going to activate before the rogue squads. Then they just sit back and throw out counter dice at anyone who dares to attack them.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Is he? Paying 13pts for a scatter you will never use and impotency against enemy aces?

Yes, he is, assuming of course you didn't build your list like a Gungan. FC/Howlrunner/swarm Valen is the highest average single-squadron damage output in the game, better even than FC/Toryn Wedge. His special ability entirely aside, he's a fantastic investment in a TIE swarm.

He's better against generics, obviously, but over 4 average damage is outrageously good even if you know it's getting braced. Which, against anything rebel ever, accuracies don't matter and it's getting braced anyway.

13 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yes, he is, assuming of course you didn't build your list like a Gungan. FC/Howlrunner/swarm Valen is the highest average single-squadron damage output in the game, better even than FC/Toryn Wedge. His special ability entirely aside, he's a fantastic investment in a TIE swarm.

He's better against generics, obviously, but over 4 average damage is outrageously good even if you know it's getting braced. Which, against anything rebel ever, accuracies don't matter and it's getting braced anyway.

Yea I see Valen as good DPS against Rebels and an auto-scatter against Imps. 3 damage isn't that hard to do with 3 blacks and a reroll, so you brace to 2 or scatter. Follow up with anything else. And Valen has synergy with Heavy.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yes, he is, assuming of course you didn't build your list like a Gungan. FC/Howlrunner/swarm Valen is the highest average single-squadron damage output in the game, better even than FC/Toryn Wedge. His special ability entirely aside, he's a fantastic investment in a TIE swarm.

He's better against generics, obviously, but over 4 average damage is outrageously good even if you know it's getting braced. Which, against anything rebel ever, accuracies don't matter and it's getting braced anyway.

Pre-swarm reroll with FC/Howl, Valen should average 3.25. The near 100% chance of reroll gets you .5 to .75 extra average.

Wedge with FC/Toryn hits 3.5 average with another .5 average for Toryn. So they break roughly even. Wedge then has a higher chance of having an accuracy.

Valen/Howl also just cost you 29 to field. Wedge/Toryn is 26. Both Howl and Toryn also will be buffing a lot of other shots. So it's a near wash.

Mind you, Valen is awesome. Just not unmatched.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Pre-swarm reroll with FC/Howl, Valen should average 3.25. The near 100% chance of reroll gets you .5 to .75 extra average.

Wedge with FC/Toryn hits 3.5 average with another .5 average for Toryn. So they break roughly even. Wedge then has a higher chance of having an accuracy.

Valen/Howl also just cost you 29 to field. Wedge/Toryn is 26. Both Howl and Toryn also will be buffing a lot of other shots. So it's a near wash.

Mind you, Valen is awesome. Just not unmatched.

Valen: (.75*3+.5*2)+(.75*(.75^3)+.5*(1-(.5^2))) = 4.2 Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is wrong, invalidating my previous claim. Slightly.

Wedge: 7*.5 + (1-(.5)^7)*.5 = 4

I'm pretty sure I did Valen's math right, but I may have jacked up the reroll with two different colored dice...

Sorcery! He's a witch! A wiiiiitch! Burn the witch!

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

Valen: (.75*3+.5*2)+(.75*(.75^3)+.5*(1-(.5^2))) = 4.2

Wedge: 7*.5 + (1-(.5)^7)*.5 = 4

I'm pretty sure I did Valen's math right, but I may have jacked up the reroll with two different colored dice...

I'm iffy on the different colored dice reroll. You get an average of +.75 on a black reroll and .5 on a blue reroll. Your math says the average is somehow +.95. It should lie somewhere between .5 and .75. So Valen's average should be just a hair under 4.0. Like 3.9+

Regardless, Valen is excellent bang for your buck as Howlrunner is already a reliable pick.

8 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I'm iffy on the different colored dice reroll. You get an average of +.75 on a black reroll and .5 on a blue reroll. Your math says the average is somehow +.95. It should lie somewhere between .5 and .75. So Valen's average should be just a hair under 4.0. Like 3.9+

Regardless, Valen is excellent bang for your buck as Howlrunner is already a reliable pick.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think that's wrong.

I have average Valen damage at 2.65 with reroll, but without FC. 3 damage with reroll and FC.

And Wedge at 3.75 with the +2 buff and a reroll from Toryn.

6 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I have average Valen damage at 2.65 with reroll, but without FC. 3 damage with reroll and FC.

And Wedge at 3.75 with the +2 buff and a reroll from Toryn.

The part I'm hung up on is the selective reroll between the blacks and the blues. And I'm not engaged enough to think it through at the moment.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

The part I'm hung up on is the selective reroll between the blacks and the blues. And I'm not engaged enough to think it through at the moment.

Oh wait, I forgot to take out the extra crit damage from my calculator. I had averaged both rerolls to get 3, but it's different now. Assuming my math is correct, this is what you get.

Valen + Howl/FC
Reroll blue: 3 average
Reroll black: 3.125 average

Valen + Howl + FC
Reroll blue: 3.5 average
Reroll black: 3.625 average

Wedge is at 3.25 with +2 and reroll.
3.75 with FC as well.

So Valen with 1 buff averages almost as much as Wedge does with his buff, and adding in both FC and Howl increases average damage by .5. No big surprise there. Valen is 13, and FC is 6, so for 19 points you can do the equivalent of what Wedge does. Not bad IMO.