Whilst this has no doubt been touched on previously, with the advent of wave 5 fighters there's a whole new bunch of contenders to assess.

However, have taken most of the rebel wave 5 additions for a whirl since their release, i keep coming back to the good ol' X Wing and A Wing, especially the latter. Both have solid anti squadron, anti ship and the A Wing has great economy at 11 points and speed 5 to boot. There doesn't seem to be a contender in the new wave within those criteria.

With wave 5 in mind what do you guys think? (Being a rebel player i don't have much of an idea on the Imperial side of life, so I wont venture a half ar$ed opinion there).

Empire: Defender

Good at everything, and the cost to prove it.

Defendeeeers!!!!

The TIE Defender is also an excellent multi-role fighter. Probably because it was designed to be "an X-Wing, only better". It is priced accordingly, though.

Defender.

A-wing.

TIE Defender for the Imps for sure. I think it may be THE best squadron inthe game currently.

The Rebels have three that comes near but nothing is quite a Defender.

A-wings have great offensive value against both squadrons and ships (even without bomber), but thry are low on hull.

X-wigs are great against squadrons but they are kinda slow and one red dice is not that great even with bomber.

E-wibgs are faster but they are more expansive, and snipe is much less flexible than escort.

Maarek Steele. Luke Skywalker. Darth Vader.

Defenders are rubbish bombers, not even close. I mean come on Phantoms are better bombers.....

In generics Decimators.

Hopefully Sloane will make Defenders as bombers into something much more effective.

I like X-Wings and Firesprays. YT-2400 is also pretty good.

17 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Hopefully Sloane will make Defenders as bombers into something much more effective.

She won't. They are so pricey that Sloane won't get much mileage out of them.

I can see the appeal of Defenders... but at 16 points apiece?

For 6 points more i can have two A wings which nicely handle a Defender. Great squadron for sure, not sold on their cost effectiveness (however, having been on the receiving end of a Jendon'd Marek for the last few weeks, i can testify to his awesomeness).

Sloane Ciena.

5 minutes ago, GammonLord said:

I can see the appeal of Defenders... but at 16 points apiece?

For 6 points more i can have two A wings which nicely handle a Defender. Great squadron for sure, not sold on their cost effectiveness (however, having been on the receiving end of a Jendon'd Marek for the last few weeks, i can testify to his awesomeness).

We use Defenders in our local CC campaign.

You know what we do with them?

Give them to the New Guy.

He also got Maarek, Jendon (and another Lambda) and Ciena. And an Advanced. And Chirraneau.

Because they are so fast and hi HP they are forgiving for new players. You don't get floored from one tiny positioning mistake. Add Relay and Chirry and suddenly New Guy can have Fun With Squads.

I think that's the biggest appeal of Defenders.

6 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

We use Defenders in our local CC campaign.

You know what we do with them?

Give them to the New Guy.

He also got Maarek, Jendon (and another Lambda) and Ciena. And an Advanced. And Chirraneau.

Because they are so fast and hi HP they are forgiving for new players. You don't get floored from one tiny positioning mistake. Add Relay and Chirry and suddenly New Guy can have Fun With Squads.

I think that's the biggest appeal of Defenders.

As a New-Guy... I love Defenders. They allow me to have a potent fighter presence without having to specialize one way or another. They are pricey, but their raw durability and flexibility are excellent. Sometimes I wish they had Escort but I can live without. Also, depending on who gets the Alpha, a Defender can potentially one-shot an A-Wing with only a couple damage coming back.

That said I'm looking at Phantoms and wondering if they may have a spot in the same sort of roll as a multipurpose fighter for a bit cheaper.

X-Wings are my go-to fighter in Rebels. This may be largely due to the fact that it's easy to own 6 of them and they do just about everything you want all on their own. 13pts is a pretty great deal for excellent anti-fighter, and decent anti-ship bomber. The Lancer has also grown on me after a run with a pair of those.

The best thing about Defenders is that they cannot be one-shotted. A-wings can and thsz makes them a risky choice. They are cheap but your opponent needs only one lucky roll and bye-bye squadron.

1 minute ago, Norell said:

The best thing about Defenders is that they cannot be one-shotted. A-wings can and thsz makes them a risky choice. They are cheap but your opponent needs only one lucky roll and bye-bye squadron.

The odds of one-shotting an A-Wing are pretty low. Not something I would worry about, to be honest.

The trouble I've had with Phantoms is that for only 2 more points I get +1 speed, +2 hull, better anti-squadron dice, and a more reliable anti-ship die. Makes it rather hard to not just upgrade to Defenders. Someone is going to make them shine one day, and I'm looking forward to finding out what that is.

Tycho + Shara = Beast Mode

They are just as deadly on counter as they are on attack.

How much does cost weigh into it? Are we just looking at power/flexibility?

Assuming we are, and limiting it to generics;

Empire: Defenders. Reasons elucidated by others above. Does everything. The single blue bomber is pretty consistent although theres no spike. Wont be phased out by sloane either.

Ginks suggestion of Decimators is strong in dice, but a multirole fighter should be able to screen and a heavy fighter can't unless you bring enough to wipe out your opponents force.

Rebels: YT-2400/X-Wing depending on fleet makeup

Depending on what you are bringing with you, there is a case for either of these. If you are bringing BCC('s) and squadron commands, X-Wings. If you are running command light then the YT-2400 does everything competantly, has good speed and hull, plus adds rogue. Overall its probably the most flexible generic in the game, but lack of bomber keyword caps its antiship power at acceptable.

Factoring in aces/uniques/cost can change the equation somewhat.

8 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

How much does cost weigh into it? Are we just looking at power/flexibility?

I reckon cost has got to be a deciding factor that ultimately swings it - but then if you're looking for a solid multi role fighter bomber, the Defender may be a bargain the list builder's eyes as it meets expectations.

Maybe i'm just cheap, but 16 points for a non unique is a point too far. I think whether you have a preference for ships/ squadrons in damage delivery will shape how you perceive squadron point costs. For me, squads are the side show supporting my ships so I can rarely justify a huge squad outlay.

I find a balance is better used by fielding multiples. As rebels I have been finding recently that 2 X-wings and a Y-wing squadron is a great all-rounder that is cheap and doesn't rely on dedicated carriers too much.

1 hour ago, Norell said:

The best thing about Defenders is that they cannot be one-shotted.

My FC Howlrunner Interceptors say hi.

But in seriousness, neither is likely to be one-shotted, though of course A-wings are more vulnerable than Defenders. The upside is, the A-wings still get that counter even one the one-shot, which is pretty nice.

I think both the A-wing and the Defender are a half a point or so too cheap if we're considering just the generics. 12/17 respectively would probably be too much, but they're both just a little on the cheap side.

The A-wing is balanced among the rest of the rebels by not synergizing well with anything, directly. No escort for Biggs, no bomber for Norra, no heavy offense for Yavaris, minimal benefit from FCT, etc.

The Defender is similarly balanced among the Imperials by not synergizing with either major fighter paradigm of the rest of the squadrons: lack of swarm (for the Howlrunner ball) or escort/autodamage (for the Soontir/Mauler ball) means it's a viable option that doesn't outright eclipse the existing ones.

E-Wing and Tie Defender.

In a vacuum, with no Aces, no ship based upgrades, and no synergies with other squad types

Rebels: Awings or YT2400s. As beat out Xs in squad and ship damage point for point. 2400s are what someone stripping out most keywords would build for an all around squad.

Imperials: TIE Advanced. Compares favorably to TIE Defender is many ways to me. At 48 points, I get 4 with 20 hull and 12 blue dice (6 damage). At 48 - with Defenders - I get 18 hull and 7.5 damage. Defenders barely scrape out a win here head to head. Against ships, 5 or 6 HP isn't a huge difference against flak and the Advanced put out more damage per point cost.

Considering upgrades, aces, and squad synergies.

Rebels: Xwings. They gain a huge surge in power with Norra, Toryn, and BCC and neither the Awing or 2400 benefit from more than just Toryn. Escort also becomes more valuable considering everything. Biggs and Jan give them great staying power. Ewings were also in the running but I value Escort more than snipe yet.

Imperials: Advanceds are now way out ahead with escort and the ability to keep Autodamage and specialized squads alive. I may change my tune with Sloane, but am uncertain.

Tl;dr: I apparently put high value on Escort

30 minutes ago, Church14 said:

In a vacuum, with no Aces, no ship based upgrades, and no synergies with other squad types

Rebels: Awings or YT2400s. As beat out Xs in squad and ship damage point for point. 2400s are what someone stripping out most keywords would build for an all around squad.

Imperials: TIE Advanced. Compares favorably to TIE Defender is many ways to me. At 48 points, I get 4 with 20 hull and 12 blue dice (6 damage). At 48 - with Defenders - I get 18 hull and 7.5 damage. Defenders barely scrape out a win here head to head. Against ships, 5 or 6 HP isn't a huge difference against flak and the Advanced put out more damage per point cost.

Considering upgrades, aces, and squad synergies.

Rebels: Xwings. They gain a huge surge in power with Norra, Toryn, and BCC and neither the Awing or 2400 benefit from more than just Toryn. Escort also becomes more valuable considering everything. Biggs and Jan give them great staying power. Ewings were also in the running but I value Escort more than snipe yet.

Imperials: Advanceds are now way out ahead with escort and the ability to keep Autodamage and specialized squads alive. I may change my tune with Sloane, but am uncertain.

Tl;dr: I apparently put high value on Escort

I will say that my highest value all rounder if uniques were included was tempest squadron, so IMO you aren't wrong.

The E-Wing has snipe and bomber...just saying. A red bomber die ain't great but its something.